Liverpool FC Forum

by **maguskwt** » Tue Dec 11, 2007 4:35 pm

JoeTerp wrote:
maguskwt wrote:What's worrisome are the people who hold the fate of rafa... with what kind of football knowledge will gillett and hicks decide that rafa is not good enough? I don't mind if big mick's the one that decides... "rafa you gotta go because you don't do sensible rotation"... "i'm gonna find someone like alex ferguson"... at least I know that the owner has football knowledge and knows what he's doing and has a plan... whether i like it or not... And there's also the rick parry factor... will he support rafa when they hold the talks...how will he advice the owners? I have a feeling that parry and rafa are not in very good terms and that is potentially very dangerous for rafa....

Im going to show a bunch of Wiki quotes about Hicks and his history with dealing with management and coaches with the Rangers, he bought the club in 1998 and Jonny Oates had been the manger for 2 years already winning manager of the year in 1996:

Oates continued to lead the Rangers for several more seasons, leading them to AL West titles in 1998 and 1999. However, following a fourth-place finish in 2000 and beginning the 2001 season with an 11-17 record, Oates resigned as manager and third base coach Jerry Narron replaced him. Many fans, however, blamed Rangers management for the team's woes, saying that team management placed unreasonable expectations on Oates, especially after spending US$252 million on free agent shortstop Alex Rodriguez.

After a few years as an analyst on ESPN, Buck Showalter was hired as manager of the Texas Rangers on October 11, 2002, following an abysmal last-place season under manager Jerry Narron. In his first season with the Rangers, Showalter managed the team to a 71-91 record - again in last place; but following the high-profile, off-season trade which sent Alex Rodriguez to the Yankees, Showalter's Rangers jumped out to a surprising, early-season record of 17-9 by early May of the 2004 season. The Rangers stayed in playoff contention for most of the season, performing far better than most had predicted. The Rangers failed to make the playoffs, finishing third in the contentious AL West, though Showalter was again named Manager of the Year. In Showalter's 4 years with the Rangers, the team failed to finish better than third (of four teams) in the AL West. He was fired as manager on October 4, 2006.

more indepth on how the team did during the Hicks Era

Very results driven, but seems to give people a fair chance at proving their worth. Too bad it hasn't worked out for the Rangers though. The big thing with Hicks is hiring the wrong GMs which would be the equivalent of Rick Parry's position.

quite an interesting read

which means... rafa doesn't have that much time... I do hope that he's given at least one more full season...

If they can hire a better manager than so be it... but firing rafa without an adequate replacement available just because he's not hitting their targets won't take us anywhere... and there are very few managers better or at the same calibre as rafa...

by **JoeTerp** » Tue Dec 11, 2007 4:55 pm

Here is Hicks hockey history (where he has had the most success out of the three other teams owned by our owners)

In the middle of his third season with the team (now called the Michigan K-Wings), he was offered the head coaching position with the Dallas Stars and on January 8, 1996, he was named head coach, replacing Bob Gainey, who remained with the Stars as general manager. In his first full season with the Stars, he led the team to a first-place finish in the Central Division and a playoff berth. In his second full season with the Stars, Hitchcock again led the Stars to the playoffs, losing in the Conference Finals to the eventual Stanley Cup champion Detroit Red Wings. Also during the 1997-98 season, Hitchcock was named to his first of three consecutive NHL All-Star Game teams as coach.

During the 1998-99 NHL season, Hitchcock led the Stars to a regular season record of 51-19-12 (0.695 winning percentage), a team best. In the playoffs, Hitchcock led the team to a Stanley Cup victory over the Buffalo Sabres, the team's first. The next season, Hitchcock again led the team to the Stanley Cup finals, only to lose to the New Jersey Devils.

In the 2000-01 season, Hitchcock again led the Stars to the playoffs, but exited early. Midway through the following season, after getting off to a mediocre 23-21-6 start and in the midst of strife between the players and management, Hitchcock was fired as head coach.

(seems like a big reason why the team was successful was that he kept on bob gainey, the former coach in a general manager role, and he brought in a lot of good players)

He hired Rick Wilson as an interim head coach (did the same in baseball) and kept him on as an assistant when he hired the new coach

Tippett is the 19th head coach of the Dallas Stars, since accepting the job on May 21, 2002. As head coach for the Dallas Stars, Tippet had a career record of 87-48-27. Tippett had a home record of 56-14-14 which currently ranks him fifth in the NHL for coaches with a minimum of 50 career home wins. The Stars recently signed Tippett to a contract extension through the 2008/09 season.

by **JoeTerp** » Tue Dec 11, 2007 5:01 pm

And Gillett:

2000-2001

After stumbling out to a 5-13-2 record, the Montreal Canadiens fired their head coach Alain Vigneault and hired rookie Michel Therrien. The Canadiens went 23-27-13 under Michel and missed the playoffs.

[edit] 2001-2002

In his first full season as the Canadiens head coach, Michel led the habs to an impressive record of 36-31-15. A 16 point improvement from the previous year. In the playoffs, Therrien's Canadiens upset the top seeded Boston Bruins in 6 games before losing to the Carolina Hurricanes.

[edit] 2002-2003

After starting the season 16-12-6, the Canadiens slipped in the standings winning only 2 of their next 12 games. This prompted General Manager Andre Savard to fire Therrien with a record of 18-19-9. Michel had a total record of 77-77-37 with the Habs.

, Julien became head coach of the the Montreal Canadiens. In 2004, his first full season as an NHL head coach, he led Montreal to a 93 point performance (41-30-7-4 record) and the second round of the playoffs. He was fired and replaced by GM Bob Gainey on January 14, 2006. Julien accumulated a win-loss-tie-OT loss record of 72-62-11-14 during his three seasons [3].

After serving as an assistant coach to Michel Therrien with the Canadiens from 2000 to 2002, Carbonneau moved back to the Dallas Stars where he worked as an assistant General Manager until his return to Montreal in January 2006.

On January 14th, 2006, Guy Carbonneau became the Montreal Canadiens associate coach as Claude Julien was fired and GM Bob Gainey assumed the role of interim head coach; Carbonneau then took over as head coach, after the Canadiens were eliminated from the playoffs. He is the 28th coach of the famed Montreal team.

Both owners have had the same person as a GM also serve as an interim coach

by **LFC2007** » Tue Dec 11, 2007 6:26 pm

bigmick wrote:If however we fail to achieve the levels set out in my aforemntioned parameters, I would be advocating a change of manager.

The reason I don't advocate changing the manager as of now is that I think Rafa deserves the opportunity to go the whole season with his stronger sqaud, to see if "Rafa style" can work this time.

If you read back to the aforementioned post, you will see that I said this bit there but I'll repeat it for you now. Those of us who claimed that were sensing a change of attitude by Rafa, a "seeing of the light" were actually totally wrong. The light we could see at the end of the tunnel was probably somebody lighting a Woodbine. I think there is zero point zero chance of Rafa ever changing his methods visa-vis selection.

Now without wanting to be rude, I don't think I could possibly be any clearer than I have been already. If you don't understand my point, then I'm afraid it shall have to remain one of lifes little mysteries

Here we go, just one last time., just for LFC (as I'm an old grumpy fecker who likes to go on patronising rants). If rotation "Rafa style" proves to work by my aforementioned parameters, then I will be the first one to admit I was wrong all along, and in that case I would be advocating giving Rafa more time.

Quantify this hope then, you have a real knack of avoiding the point in question and going off on a rant.

If, as you've been endorsing so ardently in your posts, Rafa's current methods are so incredibly unlikely to bring us a title challenge (Evidence - His methods would have to go against Fergie, Mourinho, Wenger, Every other successful league manager in this country). If, as you've been so ardent to express, the likelihood of Rafa changing his methods is "zero point zero", then it is a fair enough and perfectly reasonable observation to make that you harbour a very 'slim hope' that Rafa's methods will work (in fact, you have a "very strong belief" that his methods will not prove successful to the extent that we are able to challenge for the title i.e. within 6 points or so off the top).

If this is not the case, please, QUANTIFY YOUR HOPES.

If the above is the case, it is a fair enough and reasonable question to put to you that you believe the season is as good as written off i.e. because the likelihood of Rafa's methods working are so slim (again - if not - QUANTIFY YOUR HOPES IN THIS RESPECT).

Therefore, given that club and national executives appear to be hovering over the likes of Capello and Mourinho as of now (two of the best managers around), snapping up a new manager a.s.a.p., and not at the end of the season would be the more sensible approach, from your perspective. I consider it highly likely (8/15) that Capello will become the next England manager, and Mourinho looks to be in the running (according to the bookies/journalists) for one of Europe's top jobs, in either Spain or Italy. After these two, where do you look to?

You would allow him at least until the end of this season just to see if, with a stronger squad, he can prove his methods to be successful - why?, just because 'anything can happen in football'?, for sentimental reasons? You harbour enough 'hope' that his methods might work (even though you have a strong belief they will not) you would even risk missing out on two of the world's best managers? I am simply trying to gauge your beliefs and hopes with clarity.

On the one hand, you lambast Rafa's methods by saying how he'd need to go against every footballing convention known to man if he were to be successful - the clear implication that it isn't going to happen in a million years or that it would take some sort of miracle. Yet at the same time, you harbour enough hope that his methods will be successful by allowing him until the send of the season to see if they can work. In spite of the fact that your overwhelming belief is that these methods, even with a stronger squad, will not succeed, this hope is enough to override the possibility of securing a top manager a.s.a.p. As we all know, time is of the essence in football - Mourinho is available now. So what are we doing then? Wasting time living in spurious hope that Rafa's methods might work? You're not fickle Mick, but you certainly give off mixed messages at times.

I can't make it any clearer than that.

Ciggy Said:

Its plain and simple what BM thinks that if Rafa stops making silly mistakes he can go on and be a legend at the club for many years to come.

But by not cutting out these silly mistakes out of his Rafa Style as Mick calls it, it could be his downfall.

Will he change his methods? Only he knows that answer but I get the feeling he wont.

Mick said

I think there is zero point zero chance of Rafa ever changing his methods visa-vis selection.

...and I'm not the only one. :no

by **Lando_Griffin** » Tue Dec 11, 2007 6:35 pm

I don't understand some peoples logic.

"Rafa is a genius who will definitely win us the league" - the general consensus after the 6-0 mauling of Derby/8-0 vs Besiktas.

"Rafa is (a) f*ckwit/idiot/stubborn/set in his ways/ignorant, etc, and we will never win the league whilst he is the manager" - general consensus after the draws/losses of the season.

Now it is a FACT that these vastly different statements (paraphrased) came from the same posters. The "Fickletw*ts", or "Fts" if you will.

Now, I have said when I believe Rafa has made a mistake. But if I don't think he is to blame for a poor result, then why the f*ck should I blame him? Similarly, I personally think that Alonso is our best player for the system Rafa favours. Like it or lump it - it's my view. Gerrard is the more complete player, without doubt, but Alonso is the brains of the outfit.

Now - why is it that I cannot defend the boss and Xabi from unfair criticism? Particularly from the kind of clueless bellends who spout sh*t like it's a fashion statement.

I don't think either are infallible, but I do honestly think that the majority of people on here underrate them both greatly and insult them constantly. And I will tell you you're a thick c*nt and that you're entirely wrong until you're suicidal. It's simply because I want to, and I enjoy putting prats in their place.

So.

Do I subscribe to the "In Rafa I trust" campaign? Well according to a few on here, I am the "life chairman".
But what is wrong with supporting and standing up for the boss? I thought that was part ad parcel of being a football fan. Cheer the victories, and look for the positives in defeat.

But then again, judging by the reactions to Rafa's "blunders", you'd b forgiven for thinking that some of the c*nts on here would sell their kids to a workhouse if they dared to make a mistake.

by **KennyisGod....still** » Tue Dec 11, 2007 6:50 pm

Is it me or do I detect for the last few years too many people think we have a God given right to win, based on former glory? Rafa'll bring those glory days back, of that I'm sure, but it was never gonna be inside 3 or 4 years where the PL is concerned. He had a massive rebuilding job, not particularly helped by winnin the CL in his first year - perverse i know, but true.

Until the glory hunters accept two teams play in every game, players/managers/officials all make mistakles and fans aint always right, we aint goin nowhere.

Opinions are like ars3oles, we've all got one!

by **Lando_Griffin** » Tue Dec 11, 2007 6:58 pm

KennyisGod....still wrote:Is it me or do I detect for the last few years too many people think we have a God given right to win, based on former glory? Rafa'll bring those glory days back, of that I'm sure, but it was never gonna be inside 3 or 4 years where the PL is concerned. He had a massive rebuilding job, not particularly helped by winnin the CL in his first year - perverse i know, but true.

Until the glory hunters accept two teams play in every game, players/managers/officials all make mistakles and fans aint always right, we aint goin nowhere.

Opinions are like ars3oles, we've all got one!

Or in Heimdall's case, two.

by **bigmick** » Tue Dec 11, 2007 8:15 pm

Just quickly. In reply to LFC's post, I refer him to my previous answers.

by **Leonmc0708** » Mon Dec 17, 2007 4:47 pm

AGAIN WE LOSE !!!

I am not paying for tickets again if we are not GUARANTEED to win.

by **Judge** » Mon Dec 17, 2007 5:28 pm

Leonmc0708 wrote:AGAIN WE LOSE !!!

I am not paying for tickets again if we are not GUARANTEED to win.

pmsl

by **112-1077774096** » Tue Dec 18, 2007 3:11 am

people in here talking about people being thick, being holier than thou etc etc etc

please someone point out the positives from a 3-1 defeat to reading, and try and do it without tongue placed firmly in cheek

if any of you think results like this are acceptable the f*ck off and support a team from the bottom half of the table, maybe its a scouse thing, maybe we hurt more as we have more affiliation

just maybe

by **Leonmc0708** » Tue Dec 18, 2007 10:16 am

peewee wrote:people in here talking about people being thick, being holier than thou etc etc etc

please someone point out the positives from a 3-1 defeat to reading, and try and do it without tongue placed firmly in cheek

if any of you think results like this are acceptable the f*ck off and support a team from the bottom half of the table, maybe its a scouse thing, maybe we hurt more as we have more affiliation

just maybe

Who is that directed at big licks ?

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