Liverpool FC Forum

by **Ade** » Mon Dec 17, 2007 2:08 pm

stmichael wrote:
Ade wrote:
bigmick wrote:I seem to remember an Italian team giving Man Utd a good hiding in the Champions League semi a couple of years back before we gave the feckers a three goal start and still smacked their erse Similarly last season, the team which absolutely fecking banjoed them 3-0 in the semi was as lucky as erseholes to prevent us from winning it for a sixth time.

So are we better suited to European football under Benitez then Mick? Seems we are.

BTW, I agree with your original post - Kuyt, Riise and Carson have to go.

Last week, when everyone was picking their team for this fixture, i wanted Stevie on the right, with Lucas and Masch in the middle. For me, Stevie doesn't influence games against Utd, Arsenal or Chelsea as much as he should. The game needs to be better paced with better passing in the middle, and Lucas and Masch/Alonso need to be brought on now as our favoured central midfield against the top English sides.

I now think it's time to put Stevie wide right against the other big 3, as I think he can do real damage, and he would put the frighteners on Ronaldo and Evra. Joe and Ashley, and whoever the play with Clichy.

When the other big 3 play us they ID Gerrard as our main threat and flood the middle around him, outnumber him. Put him out wide and they can't do that.

It's either that or play 4-2-3-1, with 2 out of Lucas/Masch/Xabi holding, Stevie in the middle of the 3, behind Torres, Babel out left, cutting in, and Benny wide right.

we're not out of it yet - Utd, Arsenal and Chelsea all have a tough run of games coming up - but there's no point playing cagey now. Bring on Babel full tilt and let's go for it. All or nothing now

As far as I'm concerned, Rafa can't be blamed for yesterday's defeat. The team was unchanged but quite simply, too many players had an off day. However I do think it's a fair point with regards to us being far more suited to playing in Europe under Rafa than in the Premiership.

However, if comparing us to United, you have to remember the kind of backing Fergie has had compared to Rafa. Rafa would love to be able to go spend £17 million each on potential such as Anderson and Nani and go spend nearly £30 million each on defenders (Ferdinand) and strikers (Rooney). Looking at the sort of spending made available to Ferguson and then the amount available to Rafa is it any wonder we are been left behind and playing catch up?

Rafas hands are tied far more then managers such as Ferguson and when you take into account the amount of time that Ferguson has been at the club is it any wonder he knows this league.

Having said this though, to not to be able to beat the Mancs in seven attempts in the league, and fall victim to the same tactics employed by Fergie all the time is abysmal. Yes we have better attacking players compared to previous seasons, but even that doesn't seem to be making a difference against the top sides. Even with genuine top class talent like Babel at his disposal, Rafa misuses it by playing him wide when he's clearly a striker. I also think Benayoun is far more suited to playing "between the lines" than out wide. Yesterday he just kept cutting infiled and as a consequence, our attacking down the right flank was virtually non-existent.

The reason I am annoyed is because I know how talented Rafa is, more so than Fergie and Wenger, its just that he doesn't apply his talents correctly. Its frustrating when Rafa should be the benchmark for other Managers, yet we look to see if he can match Fergie when it comes to the Premiership.

I also don't think you can discount the style of play issue. Fergie is a master of this league and he has devised a style of play built on winning it year in year out. I think Man United have the perfect blend of attack and defence without a doubt. I don't see them having any weaknesses this year and where they do the quality players can pull those players through. Last year they were the worst United side ever to win the league but they won it on guts and flair alone - they dared in every game and got their rewards. So I think the difference between United and Liverpool is not only some players but also the mentality.

Agree with most of this, especially the ridiculous amounts of money SAF has had to spend, compared to everyone - not just us. It creates a huge imbalance in the Prem.

But I don't see how you can rate Rafa as a better manager than Wenger. I just don't see that. Wenger has unearthed more great talents, made better use of them, got the most out of his team, and won the double in his first full season, when Utd were as strong as they are now. He is out in front, as far as I'm concerned, and we can't keep making excuses about Rafa's talent/genius being hidden - no one is tying his hands behind his back on team selection or tactics.

Also, I don't think it's the case that Fergie has built ONE style of play to win so many titles, he's proven that he can build different teams with different formations capable of winning the league, from classic 4-4-2 with Beckham and Giggs feeding Cole and Yorke, to the 4-3-3 or 4-2-3-1 he has now.

by **stmichael** » Mon Dec 17, 2007 2:38 pm

Ade wrote:But I don't see how you can rate Rafa as a better manager than Wenger. I just don't see that. Wenger has unearthed more great talents, made better use of them, got the most out of his team, and won the double in his first full season, when Utd were as strong as they are now. He is out in front, as far as I'm concerned, and we can't keep making excuses about Rafa's talent/genius being hidden - no one is tying his hands behind his back on team selection or tactics.

I think he's equally as talented but in a different way.

First of all I have to point out that Arsenal had more than a decent team when Wenger took over. It's not as if they had a bunch of no-hopers. They had a squad with plenty of league winners, absolutely invaluable when building his own team, who'd proven themselves good enough and went on to play a big part in his first Premiership winning team. Compared to the players Rafa inherited? Not even comparable. It's clear then you think it's fair that Wenger gets several seasons without winning a single trophy because he's won the league. Benítez doesn't, despite having won both the Champions League and the FA Cup?

The difference for me is that Wenger has learnt from his mistakes and Benitez has not. Arsenal have developed more of a cutting edge from the past few season where they used to over play & are no longer bullied by teams like Bolton and Everton. Infact everyone still goes on about their "beautiful football" but they're more direct now than they've ever been with Adebayor upfront. We are still falling short in games against the top 4 sides & are still slipping up at places like Reading.

Rafa, when it comes to the "continental" arena, Champions League and La Liga, is probably the best tactician around, in a different league to the likes of Fergie and Wenger. But when it comes to the Premiership, which requires you to be less sophisticated tactically, Rafa isn't prepared to adapt to the demands of the Premiership. He refuses to give in to the fact that the Premiership isn't going to adapt to his philosophy.

Morientes is a great player, wasn't suited to the Premiership, but did the business on his return to La Liga. That doesn't make him a bad player, just that his attributes are better suited to a different climate. Rafa is and will remain a great Manager, but in the environment that suits his attributes best, I don't think that is winning the Premiership.

by **Owzat** » Mon Dec 17, 2007 2:46 pm

bigmick wrote:2. we need some cash from somewhere, and the obvious way to generate it is to sell Sissoko, Kuyt, Carson and possibly Crouch and Riise. Lets ship some out in december and the rest at the end of the season. We need the cash and it's time to get radical.

If we get anything like what we paid for them we'd get £29m. They are ok players, but further demonstration of our depth of squad lacking strength.

The only players we have of a really top quality are the ones starting most/all games - Carragher, Gerrard, Mascherano, Torres, Reina and Arbeloa. Kewell is not trusted to last 90 mins so is quite often first substituted and the rest are so something of nothing it's a lottery who gets to start. This may explain the rotation more than tinkering, players who really aren't up to scratch although you'd have to question why Rafa bought so many of these "squad/rotation players"

And does Torres suffer the same as Gerrard in the big games and "go missing" as so many like to jibe? Well I had a look at the comparitive stats once again and while Torres scores a lot, these stats make interesting reading :-

vs top ten Premiership

Torres - 1 goal in 6 appearances (0.167 goals/app)
Kuyt - 7 goals in 26 appearances (0.269 goals/app)
Crouch - 10 goals in 47 appearances (0.213 goals/app)
Voronin - 0 goals in 4 appearances (0.000 goals/app)

vs bottom ten Premiership

Torres - 8 goals in 9 appearances (0.889 goals/app)
Kuyt - 9 goals in 21 appearances (0.429 goals/app)
Voronin - 3 goals in 7 appearances (0.429 goals/app)
Crouch - 9 goals in 31 appearances (0.290 goals/app)

All stats selectively chosen as usual to make sure it annoys bad bob

by **Bad Bob** » Mon Dec 17, 2007 2:52 pm

Owzat wrote:All stats selectively chosen as usual to make sure it annoys bad bob

But, is there any statistical significance in comparing Torres' league stats after 15 games (or Voronin's) to the stats of Kuyt and Crouch?

(Just keeping you honest, Owzat!

)

by **Ade** » Mon Dec 17, 2007 2:52 pm

'It's clear then you think it's fair that Wenger gets several seasons without winning a single trophy because he's won the league.'

Don't understand this point… what several seasons without a trophy? Certainly not at the beginning of his reign.

Still, we agree on one point - Rafa doesn't learn quick enough from his mistakes. I posted this earlier in the season and got a shedload of abuse from Leon about it, but I stick by it. You put it well - Rafa expects the league to bend to his will, whereas it has to work the other way round.

He is way out ahead in terms of European tactical nous, but 99% of us want the league, and if he doesn't launch an all-out attack for the rest of the season I wouldn't be surprised to see him sacked next summer.

by **stmichael** » Mon Dec 17, 2007 3:02 pm

Ade wrote:'It's clear then you think it's fair that Wenger gets several seasons without winning a single trophy because he's won the league.'

Don't understand this point… what several seasons without a trophy? Certainly not at the beginning of his reign.

arsenal won the double in 1998 and 2002. however in the four years in between they won absolutely nothing and never really looked like it either because united were so dominant during that period.

however you could see that the guy had quality and was looking to build. that's why getting rid of rafa would be completely stupid. he's brought a lot of great young talent to this club and i think he should still be here to witness it bear fruit.

by **Ade** » Mon Dec 17, 2007 3:11 pm

stmichael wrote:
Ade wrote:'It's clear then you think it's fair that Wenger gets several seasons without winning a single trophy because he's won the league.'

Don't understand this point… what several seasons without a trophy? Certainly not at the beginning of his reign.

arsenal won the double in 1998 and 2002. however in the four years in between they won absolutely nothing and never really looked like it either because united were so dominant during that period.

however you could see that the guy had quality and was looking to build. that's why getting rid of rafa would be completely stupid. he's brought a lot of great young talent to this club and i think he should still be here to witness it bear fruit.

I seem to remember them being robbed blind in the 2001 FA Cup final

I agree with pretty much everything you say mate, but no one will persuade me that there's a better manager working in the Prem than Wenger, he's a genius.

Rafa has made great strides from a poor starting position, but the feeling is growing that he had the tools at the start of this season to mount a realistic title challenge, and for all those people who say he didn't, grow a spine.

He can still do it, but the alarm bells are ringing now.

by **stmichael** » Mon Dec 17, 2007 4:12 pm

Ade wrote:I agree with pretty much everything you say mate, but no one will persuade me that there's a better manager working in the Prem than Wenger, he's a genius.

i didn't say that. I said that Rafa is equally as good a manager in general but I still maintain that his stubborness will hold us back. As I mentioned previously, Wenger has a football philosophy that he sticks to 99% of the time but even he this season has realised that they need to have a plan b. They are now more willing to be a bit more direct if they have to be, as their recent games against Villa, Newcastle and Boro have proved when they were under the cosh. However one thing will always separate the two managers in the Premiership. Wenger always has full confidence in his players and is not afraid to throw them in at a young age, whoever the opposition.

I think Rafa would release the shackles mate if he was more confident in his team. Arsenal are testament that you dont need to spend silly amounts of cash to have a successful team but it does help as does having faith in your manager and allowing him to build his squad.

Torres has been a superb signing for us and look at the difference just one player of his ilk has made to us so imagine another two or three of them of that kind of quality. We have a very good squad at the moment but need some genuine quality on the wing and pace in the defence. At the moment we have the best spine of players in world football but don't have an attack that can 'steal' matches. We only win when we dominate and overun teams, whersas the other top sides can get royally bummed and yet deliver a rapier blow which claims the points. This won't come cheap and Rafa will probably have to look to a cheap Spanish option.

by **Bermenstein** » Mon Dec 17, 2007 7:26 pm

If we could Pick from a totally fully fit Lpool Squad, this would be the way Rafa and I would pick the team

This is a team that will do damage.

As you can see, Alonso is crucial to the passing game. This is what we are missing.

by **steviec** » Mon Dec 17, 2007 7:35 pm

Kuyt for all his passion, has taken over the mantle left by Luis Garcia. He is always losing possession. I can understand any player at some stage being challenged and losing the ball, but this guy takes it to a new level. Against the scum he lost possession virtually every time he had the ball. When you are earning that kind of money and playing for one of the top teams in the world, it's not good enough. Once again Crouch comes on and he hold's the ball up well, and lays the passes off every time effortlessly and Rafa STILL drops him for the next match and starts with Kuyt

by **Emerald Red** » Mon Dec 17, 2007 9:22 pm

Bermenstein wrote:If we could Pick from a totally fully fit Lpool Squad, this would be the way Rafa and I would pick the team

This is a team that will do damage.

As you can see, Alonso is crucial to the passing game. This is what we are missing.

That looks quality. If only!

by **Sabre** » Mon Dec 17, 2007 9:27 pm

Have to admit that this schemas you've posted Bermenstein are much better than our typical posting of line-ups! with movements and everything

. Well I like that formation, I always have. That formation was called negative by not few members but I think it's as attacking as anyone if you will it to be.

I'd like to see that starting eleven often, I like it so much, that I wouldn't rotate it much

. Of course we'd have to add swaps between players (Gerrard playing there could go to the right to put a cross) but I like it.

by **Bad Bob** » Mon Dec 17, 2007 9:34 pm

Move Babel over to the right instead of Yossi and put Kewell on the left and I like the look of it as well (oh, and switch Carra and Agger around):

Reina

Arbeloa Carragher Agger Aurelio

Alonso Mascherano

Babel Gerrard Kewell

Torres

by **maguskwt** » Mon Dec 17, 2007 9:45 pm

Bad Bob wrote:Move Babel over to the right instead of Yossi and put Kewell on the left and I like the look of it as well (oh, and switch Carra and Agger around):

Reina

Arbeloa Carragher Agger Aurelio

Alonso Mascherano

Babel Gerrard Kewell

Torres

a problem with these 4-2-3-1 is that we've seen time and time again that gerrard loses efficiency when played as a support striker... and there's a danger of that in this kind of formations...

instead I would like it if gerrard was given a free role... drifting left and right... and the 'wingers' become 'support strikers' as they move up accordingly...

by **Bad Bob** » Mon Dec 17, 2007 9:52 pm

maguskwt wrote:
Bad Bob wrote:Move Babel over to the right instead of Yossi and put Kewell on the left and I like the look of it as well (oh, and switch Carra and Agger around):

Reina

Arbeloa Carragher Agger Aurelio

Alonso Mascherano

Babel Gerrard Kewell

Torres

a problem with these 4-2-3-1 is that we've seen time and time again that gerrard loses efficiency when played as a support striker... and there's a danger of that in this kind of formations...

instead I would like it if gerrard was given a free role... drifting left and right... and the 'wingers' become 'support strikers' as they move up accordingly...

I agree, mate. If Gerrard is told to park himself near the "D" and not move, we lose a lot of what's good about his game. That's why I like Sabre's distinction between an attacking midfielder and a support striker. Gerrard needs to start a bit deeper and delay his runs into the box until the defenders have been drawn to the likes of Torres, Kewell and Babel. Then he can arrive like a piano crashing down a flight of stairs (as Mick likes to say

) and inflict maximum damage with long range strikes or 1-2s on the edge of the area that play him in.

A nice aspect of this system is that it allows the fullbacks to join the attack and provide width while still giving adequate cover in behind. Say, Aurelio overlaps with Kewell on the left and the move breaks down. Well, Mascherano can slide over to cover the space down that flank, with Gerrard dropping back toward Alonso to break up play through the middle. Given the mobility and crossing ability of Arbeloa and Aurelio, I think a system that would encourage them to get forward could play to their strengths.

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