Liverpool FC Forum

by **Judge** » Tue Dec 11, 2007 11:14 am

Ciggy wrote:
bigmick wrote:The light we could see at the end of the tunnel was probably somebody lighting a Woodbine.

Its plain and simple what BM thinks that if Rafa stops making silly mistakes he can go on and be a legend at the club for many years to come.

But by not cutting out these silly mistakes out of his Rafa Style as Mick calls it, it could be his downfall.

Will he change his methods? Only he knows that answer but I get the feeling he wont.

and here it is, less the woodbine of course

by **account deleted by request** » Tue Dec 11, 2007 11:18 am

Sabre wrote:
It seems to me that on this site its ok to slag off certain players, but criticise certain other players or the manager and the wolf pack immediately jumps on your back. We have the Alonso protectionist society (honory president Sabre). The Rafa for god group (Life chairman Lando), no doubt we will soon have the Torres is our king faction (I'm thinking of running for this office myself) etc etc I just think if a few people would ease off a little we would get much better and much more interesting and honest discussion. After all its not as if anything we say really matters at the end of the day. Rafa will continue to rotate whether we all agree or not

Well it would help to the forum aswell if you didn't want to try to sell Alonso for Aguero and a packet of rollos

Personally I don't like too much to jump on the back of people, but here we go, I'll try to moderate.

That is, unless you want to try to sell Alonso for Aguero and a packet of rollos

I would settle for just the Rollo's Sabre

EDIT - Just read this by Balague :-

Just because he isn't playing in the Champions League, that doesn't mean Sergio Aguero is not one of the top players in Europe. He one of the top five, six or seven because he can pass the ball like Maradona, like he did to Forlan last week. Also he can become a Romario inside the box and he is great to watch.

by **kunilson** » Tue Dec 11, 2007 11:24 am

i used to like toffee crisp

by **Sabre** » Tue Dec 11, 2007 11:58 am

Oh interesting stuff of Balague, I have to translate a local interview to Alonso of 2 days ago, in which he talks about some of new signings, what he wants to achieve in Liverpool, and his intentions to move.

I can forward you that I loved the interview, so no plans of leaving Liverpool until 2012

by **bigmick** » Tue Dec 11, 2007 12:02 pm

As a reply to leons excellent post (I hate it when people quote the whole thing as it's so tedious, and I've no idea how you do that much more impressive breaking it up into little bits thing so I'll just skip through it bit by bit).

Which parts exactly? you asked Leon, well the bit that you've quoted next. The bit about the "In Rafa we trusters" not occupying the middle ground. I think he's got a point, they don't in my opinion. Also I think he gets frustrated that some people think or seem to think Rafa is a kind of God like figure, that he can't ever be questioned. That frustrates me too at times. I found the thing about him not playing Torres against Birmingham, when he said it was because he wasn't so good at playing "between the lines" and some people clinging onto it a bit frustrating. I just wish some people wouldn't take him so seriously sometimes. I'm fairly certain he was just fecking around with the press but people wouldn't hear of it at the time.

I like your line about Benitez not inventing rotation, just using it. The others change the team as well, you're quite right. They don't do it in the same fashion as Rafa though, with the same zeal. Bob's bunged the figures up, all the facts and line-ups and those appear to bear out what the impression is, that rafa rotates the personel, the positions, the formation and the tactics more than the others. As for the twenty players being used by the winners thing, I'm surprised at that I really am and I'm certain you wouldn't have put it in if it wasn't right. I think though that the point that Rafa changes the team more than the other managers holds water.

You're also quite right that the rotation doesn't get mentioned so much (except by me) when we win. Equally, those who have pointed out that the team and formation we played at Newcastle wasn't a million miles away from the team at Reading are also correct. The feeling persists though that had we played a more conventional line up in both games, we would still have prevailed against Newcastle, but we might have actually won at reading as well. I guess we'll never know.

We do agree that everyone makes mistakes. Ferguson onviously made one by leaving Ronaldo out at Bolton, we've all fecked up before and no manager is immune. We definately agree on that.

As for the I told you so's, there have been a few due. I've admitted a couple of times now that the performance of the back four in particular, heavily rotated at full back but still playing brilliantly is a direct contradiction on what I have said in the past. Equally, in contrast to what I have been banging on about we have proven before Reading that it is possible eventually to get some fluency and rhythm while heavily changing the team.

As for the getting proven wrong, I actually do think it's possible that I will be. To be fair I've allowed quite a big window to be wrong in. I haven't said we've got to win it to prove wrong, just to launch a credible challenge. I've said six points or so, but if we get within, say, eight points, it would be proof that at least you can get in the vicinity whilst rotating and I would certainly be happy to give the system some credit.

I'm always happy to give the manager some credit. For me he is an enigma. Fantastic at large parts of his job, but with just an achilles heel to over analyse, over compensate, to alter, to meddle.

It will be funny as feck if I am wrong and we win it though, the humbl pie I'll be eating will be nothing cvompared to some of the feckers in the media

by **Ciggy** » Tue Dec 11, 2007 12:03 pm

Sabre wrote:Oh interesting stuff of Balague, I have to translate a local interview to Alonso of 2 days ago, in which he talks about some of new signings, what he wants to achieve in Liverpool, and his intentions to move.

I can forward you that I loved the interview, so no plans of leaving Liverpool until 2012

Is right I love our Xabi :hearts

by **Effes** » Tue Dec 11, 2007 12:13 pm

I wasn't that upset when we lost to Reading -

Beat Man U and things are looking good, still.

by **hello_red** » Tue Dec 11, 2007 12:26 pm

Just wanting to say that the other day I had a rather interesting discussion about our rotation system and the way Rafa uses his players and how we will never win the league this way. Bare in mind that this was with an extremely bitter blue, and yes we ended up on the Heysel disaster and he wouldnt listen.

Anyway, I dont know anyone here but alot of people on this site come across as wolves in sheeps clothing.

Its alright supporting your team by pointing out certain facts and figures but after a while you can do is back the team and manager and just support your :censored:

team.

Your fans not pundits.

Most of the time I think rotation works but as a result of a large squad sometimes the wrong team is picked.

I am old school and not swayed by the media.

Thank you.

by **Judge** » Tue Dec 11, 2007 12:28 pm

hello_red wrote:Just wanting to say that the other day I had a rather interesting discussion about our rotation system and the way Rafa uses his players and how we will never win the league this way. Bare in mind that this was with an extremely bitter blue, and yes we ended up on the Heysel disaster and he wouldnt listen.

Anyway, I dont know anyone here but alot of people on this site come across as wolves in sheeps clothing.

Its alright supporting your team by pointing out certain facts and figures but after a while you can do is back the team and manager and just support your team.

Your fans not pundits.

Most of the time I think rotation works but as a result of a large squad sometimes the wrong team is picked.

I am old school and not swayed by the media, but i do love to read the daily sport for insider info.

Thank you.

?

by **hello_red** » Tue Dec 11, 2007 12:35 pm

Ok you caught me there the Sport is my bible!

by **JoeTerp** » Tue Dec 11, 2007 1:10 pm

bigmick wrote:.

Which parts exactly? you asked Leon, well the bit that you've quoted next. The bit about the "In Rafa we trusters" not occupying the middle ground. I think he's got a point, they don't in my opinion. Also I think he gets frustrated that some people think or seem to think Rafa is a kind of God like figure, that he can't ever be questioned. That frustrates me too at times. I found the thing about him not playing Torres against Birmingham, when he said it was because he wasn't so good at playing "between the lines" and some people clinging onto it a bit frustrating. I just wish some people wouldn't take him so seriously sometimes. I'm fairly certain he was just fecking around with the press but people wouldn't hear of it at the time.

I think that there is a lot of ground within the "in Rafa we trust" circle and that some of it could be considered moderate. Obviously, if you put Rafa on the same footing as the Pope, and that he is infallible on subjects relating to footy, then your a nutjob. But, I think that the arguement that Rafa clearly knows more about footy than anyone on the forum has SOME validity. Not to say that making that point isn't "fickle" because it is. But I feel that if you were friends with Rafa and you spoke Spanish and he answered your questions on the real and not in "manager speak" you would probably understand a lot more about where he is coming from in all his decisions and just how much thought and such he puts into game planing. But obviously he DOES make mistakes, he is human, and since his mistakes have an impact on our emotions and daily moods, it is in our right to question his decions (especially cuz they wont have an impact) and this is a great medium to do it on.

I feel like it should just be taken as a given that before every post it starts "I know Rafa has a vast superior knowledge of the game compared to me BUT . . ." and it is still possible for you to make a point and be RIGHT, because surely there are other great managers out there who also know a lot more than all of us about footy who would ALSO disagree with Rafa for the very same reasons.

I guess the pro Rafas is the middle ground with the in Rafa We Trusts at one extreme and the Sack him, he will never bring us the title at the other

by **Leonmc0708** » Tue Dec 11, 2007 1:28 pm

JoeTerp wrote:
bigmick wrote:.

Which parts exactly? you asked Leon, well the bit that you've quoted next. The bit about the "In Rafa we trusters" not occupying the middle ground. I think he's got a point, they don't in my opinion. Also I think he gets frustrated that some people think or seem to think Rafa is a kind of God like figure, that he can't ever be questioned. That frustrates me too at times. I found the thing about him not playing Torres against Birmingham, when he said it was because he wasn't so good at playing "between the lines" and some people clinging onto it a bit frustrating. I just wish some people wouldn't take him so seriously sometimes. I'm fairly certain he was just fecking around with the press but people wouldn't hear of it at the time.

I think that there is a lot of ground within the "in Rafa we trust" circle and that some of it could be considered moderate. Obviously, if you put Rafa on the same footing as the Pope, and that he is infallible on subjects relating to footy, then your a nutjob. But, I think that the arguement that Rafa clearly knows more about footy than anyone on the forum has SOME validity. Not to say that making that point isn't "fickle" because it is. But I feel that if you were friends with Rafa and you spoke Spanish and he answered your questions on the real and not in "manager speak" you would probably understand a lot more about where he is coming from in all his decisions and just how much thought and such he puts into game planing. But obviously he DOES make mistakes, he is human, and since his mistakes have an impact on our emotions and daily moods, it is in our right to question his decions (especially cuz they wont have an impact) and this is a great medium to do it on.

I feel like it should just be taken as a given that before every post it starts "I know Rafa has a vast superior knowledge of the game compared to me BUT . . ." and it is still possible for you to make a point and be RIGHT, because surely there are other great managers out there who also know a lot more than all of us about footy who would ALSO disagree with Rafa for the very same reasons.

I guess the pro Rafas is the middle ground with the in Rafa We Trusts at one extreme and the Sack him, he will never bring us the title at the other

I just dont buy this seperate camps as its all born out of rotation.

by **maguskwt** » Tue Dec 11, 2007 1:40 pm

bigmick wrote:
JoeTerp wrote:the only people that are going to be seeing the light are the pros OR the antis. Rafa is not going to overhaul his approach to managing, he has been in the business far too long (and pretty successful at it when you look at it relatively, i.e. the scope of ALL football managers) to change his ways. Either we get the results and the antis are forced to eat humble pie or do not and the pros must. But this is turning pro and anti rotation into pro and anti rafa. Like many political candidates, its hard to find one that agrees with ALL of your positions on things, so you settle for one that agrees with most AND who you trust to do a good job. I do think it is possible to be pro rafa and anti rotation as well as vice versa (but less likely to find pro rotation but anti rafa) Unless we do something crazy like not qualify for Europe, I would like to think rafa's job is safe even if we do finish 10-15 points shy (21 points shy and qualify for CL like last year would put me on the fence) I want to see what this squad is capable of with Babel and Lucas having a whole year under their belts in England and what kind of dead weight he plans on selling in Jan and the summer. (and what to do with the cash)

All of which Joe is absolutely fair enough. Though I quite often don't agree with all the content of your posts, I like your style mate and you make your point well.

The point about Lucas and Babel is a very interesting one. They both look to be potentially good players and you could be right, maybe in another season or two we'll get to see how good they really are. Similarly, some of the reserves are by all accounts very good (although it is only through posters such as yourself that feckers like me get to hear about it) and it could be argued that in time we'll have a very special team. Equally, given Rafa's one big, huge, expensive purchase was Torres (who lets face it is a fantastic player and was a fecking bargain choose whatever we paid for him) and given a bit more cash and more time there's more than an even chance he could find another World-beater.

All the above maybe, and probably is true. My gut feeling is though (infact it's not a gut feeling it's a fecking certainty lets be fair) that even if we had those players at the top of their capabilities, we would still be changing three, four, five members of the team from game to game, changing the formation, the whole midfield on occasions.

This season, if Agger, Alonso and Kewell had been available and not injured, would it have made a huge difference? Maybe. Would they have played? Maybe. People point to Torres being injured and missing matches but we were keen enoguh to sit him on his erse when he was fit.

Overall though Joe I understand your point, and I suspect you'll have the majority of fans agree with you. If I were not so 100% convinced that the "Rafa style" isn't the way to go I would agree with you as well, because in many ways Rafa is a fantastic manager. I've said a couple of times in terms of defensive organisation i think he's the best I've ever seen, and in terms of buying players he ain't far off either.

The last thing, and please forguive me but I don't agree with this bit You say it's possible to be pro Rafa nad anti rotation, which is feasible I agree. But you also say it's possible to be pro-rotation but anti-Rafa, and I can't quite get me head round that one

Your totally right though. He definately IS NOT going to change his ways now. Either the pro's or the anti's are going to be proven to have called it wrong.

big mick... sometimes you sound like you're against rotation because you just dont' like rotation... (i'm referring to the bolded passage)

Now I don't know whether that's your real mindset but if it is, isn't that a bit too rigid of a mindset to have?...

What if, like joe said, our young players like lucas, babel, agger, etc etc got better. And Torres becomes even better. On top of that we managed to add some extra world class players... with that kind of squad dont' you think that rotation is the best way to go to be challenging for all the silverware? man united won the treble in 1999... even with their squad they never got close to challenginging at all fronts after that...

what I like about rafa is that he plans for the long-term... not only short-term...and he looks at every aspect of the club, youth development, recruiting, etc. etc., and I for one would like to see where this is going...

Like I've said before as long as we're showing progress...I would like to give rafa 2 more years after this season...if houler deserved 6 years... so does rafa...

What's worrisome are the people who hold the fate of rafa... with what kind of football knowledge will gillett and hicks decide that rafa is not good enough? I don't mind if big mick's the one that decides... "rafa you gotta go because you don't do sensible rotation"... "i'm gonna find someone like alex ferguson"... at least I know that the owner has football knowledge and knows what he's doing and has a plan... whether i like it or not... And there's also the rick parry factor... will he support rafa when they hold the talks...how will he advice the owners? I have a feeling that parry and rafa are not in very good terms and that is potentially very dangerous for rafa....

by **JoeTerp** » Tue Dec 11, 2007 2:32 pm

maguskwt wrote:What's worrisome are the people who hold the fate of rafa... with what kind of football knowledge will gillett and hicks decide that rafa is not good enough? I don't mind if big mick's the one that decides... "rafa you gotta go because you don't do sensible rotation"... "i'm gonna find someone like alex ferguson"... at least I know that the owner has football knowledge and knows what he's doing and has a plan... whether i like it or not... And there's also the rick parry factor... will he support rafa when they hold the talks...how will he advice the owners? I have a feeling that parry and rafa are not in very good terms and that is potentially very dangerous for rafa....

Im going to show a bunch of Wiki quotes about Hicks and his history with dealing with management and coaches with the Rangers, he bought the club in 1998 and Jonny Oates had been the manger for 2 years already winning manager of the year in 1996:

Oates continued to lead the Rangers for several more seasons, leading them to AL West titles in 1998 and 1999. However, following a fourth-place finish in 2000 and beginning the 2001 season with an 11-17 record, Oates resigned as manager and third base coach Jerry Narron replaced him. Many fans, however, blamed Rangers management for the team's woes, saying that team management placed unreasonable expectations on Oates, especially after spending US$252 million on free agent shortstop Alex Rodriguez.

After a few years as an analyst on ESPN, Buck Showalter was hired as manager of the Texas Rangers on October 11, 2002, following an abysmal last-place season under manager Jerry Narron. In his first season with the Rangers, Showalter managed the team to a 71-91 record - again in last place; but following the high-profile, off-season trade which sent Alex Rodriguez to the Yankees, Showalter's Rangers jumped out to a surprising, early-season record of 17-9 by early May of the 2004 season. The Rangers stayed in playoff contention for most of the season, performing far better than most had predicted. The Rangers failed to make the playoffs, finishing third in the contentious AL West, though Showalter was again named Manager of the Year. In Showalter's 4 years with the Rangers, the team failed to finish better than third (of four teams) in the AL West. He was fired as manager on October 4, 2006.

more indepth on how the team did during the Hicks Era

Very results driven, but seems to give people a fair chance at proving their worth. Too bad it hasn't worked out for the Rangers though. The big thing with Hicks is hiring the wrong GMs which would be the equivalent of Rick Parry's position.

by **Kishan** » Tue Dec 11, 2007 3:59 pm

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