Liverpool FC Forum

by **66-1112520797** » Tue Dec 11, 2007 8:39 am

bigmick wrote:
LFC2007 wrote:So, in conclusion, you harbour a faint hope that Rafa will see the light.

It's a very interesting conclusion to draw from my answer to Taff's enquiry, and I would suggest you read that (it's only about five or six posts before your one). You do have a habit of paraphrasing my posts and then coming up with an entirely different meaning to what I've written, when in actual fact I don't think I could be clearer.

Here we go, just one last time., just for LFC (as I'm sure everyone else who read it probably understood my original reply). If rotation "Rafa style" proves to work by my aforementioned parameters, then I will be the first one to admit I was wrong all along, and in that case I would be advocating giving Rafa more time.

If however we fail to achieve the levels set out in my aforemntioned parameters, I would be advocating a change of manager.

The reason I don't advocate changing the manager as of now is that I think Rafa deserves the opportunity to go the whole season with his stronger sqaud, to see if "Rafa style" can work this time.

If you read back to the aforementioned post, you will see that I said this bit there but I'll repeat it for you now. Those of us who claimed that were sensing a change of attitude by Rafa, a "seeing of the light" were actually totally wrong. The light we could see at the end of the tunnel was probably somebody lighting a Woodbine. I think there is zero point zero chance of Rafa ever changing his methods visa-vis selection.

Now without wanting to be rude, I don't think I could possibly be any clearer than I have been already. If you don't understand my point, then I'm afraid it shall have to remain one of lifes little mysteries

by **JoeTerp** » Tue Dec 11, 2007 8:45 am

the only people that are going to be seeing the light are the pros OR the antis. Rafa is not going to overhaul his approach to managing, he has been in the business far too long (and pretty successful at it when you look at it relatively, i.e. the scope of ALL football managers) to change his ways. Either we get the results and the antis are forced to eat humble pie or do not and the pros must. But this is turning pro and anti rotation into pro and anti rafa. Like many political candidates, its hard to find one that agrees with ALL of your positions on things, so you settle for one that agrees with most AND who you trust to do a good job. I do think it is possible to be pro rafa and anti rotation as well as vice versa (but less likely to find pro rotation but anti rafa) Unless we do something crazy like not qualify for Europe, I would like to think rafa's job is safe even if we do finish 10-15 points shy (21 points shy and qualify for CL like last year would put me on the fence) I want to see what this squad is capable of with Babel and Lucas having a whole year under their belts in England and what kind of dead weight he plans on selling in Jan and the summer. (and what to do with the cash)

by **account deleted by request** » Tue Dec 11, 2007 9:50 am

I still believe the key to whether Rafa should stay or not is progress........ not rotation and to an extent not just on the points difference to the eventual title winners. I was starting to believe we had made significant progress until the Reading match brought back the doubts that it can be sustained. I believe we still play too much in stops and starts, both in games and from game to game, we are a little brittle when things don't go as planned and although hard to beat, still struggle a little too much to win games that we dominate.

In my opinion apart from the summer before last when we bought Kuyt,Bellamy and Pennant, Rafa has done quite well with his buying and selling and we are starting to see the benefit and the difference that quality signings can make. We still have positions were the lack of quality is holding us back, and I would like to see them filled sooner rather than later, but for me the first signs of light at the end of the tunnel is there for all to see now.

As for the Rafa doubters, the so called fickle anti-rotationers, I think they make some very good points, and I do believe that at times they are probably right and rotation does costs us points, but hopefully the benefits of rotation gain us even more points.

I am still not sure if we will make the necessary progress, but I am sure that we are heading in the right direction again. (unlike last season)

I really think that there are too many people on here that think any criticism of Rafa or his methods is some sort of betrayal, it's not, its natural that people question what he does, get upset when they think he has made a mistake and even wonder if he should be replaced at times. At the moment I am happy with the progress we have made this season, IF by the end of the season I feel that progress has not been maintained and that Rafa can take us no further, that doesn't mean I am fickle, it just means I am adapting my opinion based on new evidence.

It seems to me that on this site its ok to slag off certain players, but criticise certain other players or the manager and the wolf pack immediately jumps on your back. We have the Alonso protectionist society (honory president Sabre). The Rafa for god group (Life chairman Lando), no doubt we will soon have the Torres is our king faction (I'm thinking of running for this office myself) etc etc I just think if a few people would ease off a little we would get much better and much more interesting and honest discussion. After all its not as if anything we say really matters at the end of the day. Rafa will continue to rotate whether we all agree or not

by **66-1112520797** » Tue Dec 11, 2007 9:54 am

Good post Greavsie

by **JoeTerp** » Tue Dec 11, 2007 9:55 am

quality post S@int

by **bigmick** » Tue Dec 11, 2007 9:59 am

JoeTerp wrote:the only people that are going to be seeing the light are the pros OR the antis. Rafa is not going to overhaul his approach to managing, he has been in the business far too long (and pretty successful at it when you look at it relatively, i.e. the scope of ALL football managers) to change his ways. Either we get the results and the antis are forced to eat humble pie or do not and the pros must. But this is turning pro and anti rotation into pro and anti rafa. Like many political candidates, its hard to find one that agrees with ALL of your positions on things, so you settle for one that agrees with most AND who you trust to do a good job. I do think it is possible to be pro rafa and anti rotation as well as vice versa (but less likely to find pro rotation but anti rafa) Unless we do something crazy like not qualify for Europe, I would like to think rafa's job is safe even if we do finish 10-15 points shy (21 points shy and qualify for CL like last year would put me on the fence) I want to see what this squad is capable of with Babel and Lucas having a whole year under their belts in England and what kind of dead weight he plans on selling in Jan and the summer. (and what to do with the cash)

All of which Joe is absolutely fair enough. Though I quite often don't agree with all the content of your posts, I like your style mate and you make your point well.

The point about Lucas and Babel is a very interesting one. They both look to be potentially good players and you could be right, maybe in another season or two we'll get to see how good they really are. Similarly, some of the reserves are by all accounts very good (although it is only through posters such as yourself that feckers like me get to hear about it) and it could be argued that in time we'll have a very special team. Equally, given Rafa's one big, huge, expensive purchase was Torres (who lets face it is a fantastic player and was a fecking bargain choose whatever we paid for him) and given a bit more cash and more time there's more than an even chance he could find another World-beater.

All the above maybe, and probably is true. My gut feeling is though (infact it's not a gut feeling it's a fecking certainty lets be fair) that even if we had those players at the top of their capabilities, we would still be changing three, four, five members of the team from game to game, changing the formation, the whole midfield on occasions.

This season, if Agger, Alonso and Kewell had been available and not injured, would it have made a huge difference? Maybe. Would they have played? Maybe. People point to Torres being injured and missing matches but we were keen enoguh to sit him on his erse when he was fit.

Overall though Joe I understand your point, and I suspect you'll have the majority of fans agree with you. If I were not so 100% convinced that the "Rafa style" isn't the way to go I would agree with you as well, because in many ways Rafa is a fantastic manager. I've said a couple of times in terms of defensive organisation i think he's the best I've ever seen, and in terms of buying players he ain't far off either.

The last thing, and please forguive me but I don't agree with this bit

You say it's possible to be pro Rafa nad anti rotation, which is feasible I agree. But you also say it's possible to be pro-rotation but anti-Rafa, and I can't quite get me head round that one

Your totally right though. He definately IS NOT going to change his ways now. Either the pro's or the anti's are going to be proven to have called it wrong.

by **bigmick** » Tue Dec 11, 2007 10:06 am

Also saint your post is a fecking excellent one. As far as progress is concerned, there is no doubt whatsoever that we have made huge progress under Rafa. We now have the team/squad to win the Premiership in my opinion. You know the bit that comes next so I won't bother anyone with it this time, but there is absolutely no question in my mind that whichever side of any fences people sit on, anybody who believes Benitez has not taken the club miles forward from where it was when he took over is absolutely without a clue.

by **Leonmc0708** » Tue Dec 11, 2007 10:19 am

peewee wrote:again i ask what has previous seasons results for other teams have to do with this season, absolutely nothing leon

(queue smart *rse comment from leon without actually addressing the question)

Peewee, are you telling me that you beleive that the number of times a team has lost games in the league previously is or is not a good measure of how many times you would be able to lose games this season in order to win the league ?

Are you saying that the number of points a team had to reach in order to win the league last year the year before etc is not a good and decent barometer for the number that will be required to win the league this season ?

Are you saying that the "safety" point of the number of points that teams have required in order to survive is or is not going to be roughly, give or take a point or a win the number needed to ensure premiership survival this season ?

Are you telling me that you think that we would need to have lost 0 games this season in order to win the league ?

Do you think that the number of games, percentage wise, that past champions of the exact competition that we are trying to win have lost, drawn and won would or would not relate in some way to the number that are going to be the eventual winners of the league this season ?

by **NANNY RED** » Tue Dec 11, 2007 10:21 am

Good reading Saint but as you said it doesnt matter what we think at the end of the day Rafa is the boss.

Im a fully paid up member of the Lando club because i think Rafa will win us the league. And yes i would still want him as boss next season even if we dont win it this season.
Hope that makes sence im waffling a bit lack of sleep

by **murphy0151** » Tue Dec 11, 2007 10:23 am

Leonmc0708 wrote:
peewee wrote:again i ask what has previous seasons results for other teams have to do with this season, absolutely nothing leon

(queue smart *rse comment from leon without actually addressing the question)

Peewee, are you telling me that you beleive that the number of times a team has lost games in the league previously is or is not a good measure of how many times you would be able to lose games this season in order to win the league ?

Are you saying that the number of points a team had to reach in order to win the league last year the year before etc is not a good and decent barometer for the number that will be required to win the league this season ?

Are you saying that the "safety" point of the number of points that teams have required in order to survive is or is not going to be roughly, give or take a point or a win the number needed to ensure premiership survival this season ?

Are you telling me that you think that we would need to have lost 0 games this season in order to win the league ?

Do you think that the number of games, percentage wise, that past champions of the exact competition that we are trying to win have lost, drawn and won would or would not relate in some way to the number that are going to be the eventual winners of the league this season ?

what ever

by **Leonmc0708** » Tue Dec 11, 2007 10:31 am

eds wrote:
Leonmc0708 wrote:
eds wrote:Leon, this post is quite daft indeed!

IT is quite daft indeed ? More so than the phrase quite daft indeed ? It almost definitely maybe certain to possibly be so yes and no.

eds wrote:How does one babble incoherently, yet think they are putting a logic argument forward???

You tell me, you have managed to do so here.

eds wrote:"I am amazed at times with some people who post on internet forums, the only kind of consistency most of the time is their incosistency"

What does this mean? Are you expecting people to post consistent views when we beat the likes of Besiktas 8-0, yet lose to teams like Marseille at home OR beat teams like Porto 4-1 at home but lose to Reading or draw to Brum at home? By what terms do you mean consistent? I believe that if we play like retarded monkeys, I will call it for what it is and if we play football out of this world, I will do the same? Surely this is "consistency" But if you expect me to be happy when we lose to a medicore team because we gave up or our players were not good, YOU CAN get your CRANK shaft off it mate, because you are SPROUTING !

I thought that was straight forward, but just in case I will explain again. Lots of posters on internet forums are inconsistent in their views, and will post about how good we are and how much we will win everything after a good result, and then post about how the manager has to go and the guy is a fool after one defeat.

This is not just here, in the pub and on hte radio phone ins as well. Instead of taking it easy following a win, and then going easy following a bad/indifferent result its got to be total and utter over reaction.

eds wrote:"How can you go from looking like we are going to win the league last week to defo not a chance this week ?"

Ummm prolly has something to do with realistic fans, (which you continue to undermine by the way) seeing results one week (per se scoring 21 goals in 5 games) and then drawing or worse yet losing to medicore teams (per se READING on the weekend)? I can clearly see why people would have a positive outlook only to be shattered once again. One of the posters a few weeks ago put it very eloquently, "we turned a corner this week" but the again "we are always turning corners" at this club.

Its nothing to do with realistic fans, thats the problem here (for me).

Shattered ? - After one loss, our first in the league ? Shattered ? I was shattered in Athens and at half time in Istanbul, not following our first league defeat of the season in December.

eds wrote:"Is this same rationale (loss at a smaller club) to be applied to all of the title contenders ? Surely it needs to be does it not ? Great, cus then that means that United (Bolton) Arsenal (Boro) and our selves (Reading) are out of the title race already . . . . . .

Its a well known and much maligned theory that you see and learn more about your people in the face of a loss/defeat than you ever can following victories. It says a lot for our fans, and the word fickle definitely springs to mind, when following a defeat the same people who where eulogising about 21 goals in five games talk of slipping out of the title race after one loss."

FFS STOP USING THE WORD FICKLE. THERE IS NOTHING FICKLE IN SUPPORTING A CLUB THAT HAS ITS UPS AND DOWNS! All you are doing here is generalising people. Please go back into the last weeks threads and SHOW US where a particular poster was over the moon at how well we were playing and saying "we would win the league" only to this weekend "say that we are out of it". I have read a LOT of posts recently and can't remember anyone let alone a chorus of people falling into your absurd generalisation.

Stop using the word fickle ? Why ? Thats what all too many football fans are. Maybe its not their fault, maybe its born out of the media portrayal of football in this country. But fickle is EXACTLY what lots of football fans are.

When we win, its over hyped, when we lose its over played.

eds wrote:"We are not the Harlem Globe Trotters, and as such will not win every game. In fact the great sides of the seventies and eighties never won every game. Even the Invincible Arsenal actually only won 68% of their games in the infamous "invincibles" season."

Who in their right mind would think that we are invincible and will go undefeated for long bursts over the stage of a season? Who has said that? You won't get any argument from me BECAUSE YOU HAVE CREATED A BASELESS GENERALISATION AND THE COME UP WITH AN ENTIRE ARGUMENT AGAINST IT! The mind boggles, really it does???

The point is that we will not win every game, in fact we will even lose a few, so instead of making out liekthe World has stopped spinning people need to take a step back, engage the brain and not jump in two footed with posts like "Rafa is clueless"

eds wrote:"Only once has a team gone the whole season without loss, on average the league winners have lost 4.3 games per season and drawn 8.7 games over the last 15 years.

We currently have 1 loss and 6 draws. It looks like the four draws at home to date could cause us the biggest problem in our quest for the holy grail.

Interestingly if we are to clock up as many as 11, 12 or 13 draws in one season then the only team to have done this and still won the league with at least one defeat on the clock are United, in 92/93, 93/94, 96/97 and 98/99."

Those are all wonderful figures. Wonderful but stupid nonetheless, as no one understands what point you are trying to make.

The point is, for the hard of thinking like your good self, that we will lose games over the period of the season, and we will draw games, but we can still do this and win the league. I am not saying that we will, just that we still can.

eds wrote:Let me pull you off the train to Loonyville and put you back into "were we have been for the last 18 years and were the F**K we could be headed this week". Lose against Marseille tomorrow and we are out of the Champions League, why? Because we got 1 point from our first three games and lost to teams like Marseille and Besiktas, the equivalent of our relagation fodder in the EPL? Lose against Man United and our chances of winning the EPL take a turn for the worse, why?
Because we lost to Reading, because we drew to teams like Birmingham and Tottenham at home and scraped out draws against Pompey and Blackburn.

I now exactly where we have been the last eighteen years, I have spent most of it watching my club play football all over Europe.

Your argument here is look at what could happen if we lose ?

How about looking at what might be ? How about beliving ? How about daring to dream ? How about Faith in our future ?

Ah no fu.ck it lets look at the doom and gloom and what could go wrong.

eds wrote:Why, you keep asking? Now here it is the clincher, the word you soooooooo wrongly used earlier on..............

INCONSISTENT

So wrongly used ? How ? People are inconsitent with their views and over react, thats a fact.

eds wrote:Oh is this going to come back and haunt you son.

You ARE NOT my Father.

eds wrote:Under Rafa's tenure:

How does one team beat the likes of Chelsea, Juventus, Milan and go on to the win the CL? Yet only manage to come 5th in the EPL that same season?

How does a team beat the likes of Chelsea and The Scum and go on to win the FA CUP? Yet in the same season still can't beat them in the league?

How does a team beat Barcelona, Chelsea and play Milan off the park only to go down in painful CL final? Yet still be 20 points behind the winners of the EPL the same season?

Its called football, and thats why we all love it. Any day, David can beat Goliath. Any given Sunday (or Monday or Saturday or Wednesday or whatever) ANY team can beat ANY team.

That could be an off day, it could be cus one team plays out of their skin, cus one team plays absolute garbage, or it could just be one of those days.

It is also to do with the difference between cup football and league football. There is a big difference. If you need me to axplain this then let me know.

eds wrote:And then there is this season, good results against Arsenal and the recent 21 goals in 5 games patch only to draw against teams like the Brum and Tottenham at HOME or lose to teams like Reading, Marseille and Besiktas.

Once again, thats football. Man United lost to Bolton, Coventry and Man City this season, teams they SHOULD be beating on paper. (Sadly the game is not played on paper).

eds wrote:One word and one word only INCONSISTENCY.

No, poor form, a bad day at the office and poor decisions have also contributed to hose losses. Equally in MArsielle this season we saw the best performance by a visiting European team since Valencia a few years back. Who was it who managed Valencia again ?

eds wrote:And somehow the fans are inconsistent in your eyes? Don't worry mate there is a show on TV about some people deserted on island trying to find out what is going on? The title of that show sums up this thread.....................

Some fans are incosisten in that there is no middle ground Yes.

Whats the TV show by the way ?

So does the "in Rafa we trust" brigade actually think they are standing on middle ground? You are having a laugh aren't you?

The same generalisations you have made against stupid so called "fans" being doom and gloom merchants can be applied to the mindless idiots who don't dare to criticise Benitez and think that the very s%^t that comes out of his a&*e is gold. The man is flawed and as much as the "rose tinted spectacles" have trouble seeing it, the people STANDING in the middle have seen this or are slowly starting to come around.

Most of the points I raised have been ignored to suit your own agenda and that is to protect Benitez at all costs. It is very sad indeed. As sad as the idiots who come on here and insult him by calling him a "farkwit". He isn't a "farkwit" but he is no messiah either.

So you have seen us play in Europe over the last 18 years. WONDERFUL! CLAP CLAP CLAP. So has Leeds, so have the bitters, so have Newcastle. What's your point? That you are as happy as a mindless pleb not wanting to challenge for the PREMIERSHIP every year? We are bigger then them but hey, guess what some people's success is measured by low expectations, which sadly I can see that after a barren run over 18 years has started to effect some of our fans. Once again this you can't argue against, maybe you can say we have been to 2 European finals, but what does that have to do with the price of cheese in Switzerland? Until Rafa wins the EPL or starts to show signs that he can, my views won't change.

So before you start arguing once again your mindless generalisations, which I KEEP TELLING YOU I agree with. Why don't you look at the harder stuff? Why haven't we challenged for the EPL under Benitez yet? Why have we been in the wilderness for 18 years? Why are people content in coming 3rd or 4th every season? It's not a matter of lacking faith or passion, I have tonnes of that mate, don't question that. Question what we are doing right AND what we are doing wrong. Think analytically and logically, people twist that into "how dare you criticise Rafa?" and that view just s&*ts me to tears and is not MIDDLE GROUND? ?

God gave us passion and love, but he also gave us a brain. He didn't expect this to be turned off at the expense of following blindly like sheep by our passion and love for this great club.

Jesus man, you live in Melbourne and you are THAT angry ? You wanna try working in Blackburn every day of the week mate.

On your points, I am not sure what you are trying to say there.

You say you agree with me ?

I would suggest that I do not stand on any ground other than that of Liverpool FC. In Rafa we trust would be apt as I do trust him, I still scratch my head at formations like the one on Saturday, but I am realistic enough to have been expecting to lose a game this month, not think we would remain un defeated until the end of the season.

Its football that teams beat the "bigger sides" and then lose to a "lesser" team, but you need to take it with a pinck of salt.

I dont think Reading loss has dented our chances of winning hte league more than hte Spurs and Birmingham draws did however. we only dropped 3 points at Reading, but 4 in total in those two games.

My point on watching us play over the last 18 years was exactly that, I have been watching us toil. And through this experience of seeing us lose at home to Bristol City, away at MArsielle, at home to Swindon and away in Bayer Leverkusen I have come to appreciate EXACTLY what we have got in Benitez. That is our best chance in all those years (bar the first one after our last title) of getting within touching distance of the thing.

I dont think we will win it this season, I personally think we are still a couple of players light, but I think that we have the best chance of the last 17 years to be in the mix. And you just never know, if we are in htere, football being football we just might sneak one.

Quit with the name calling anyway, its pathetic.

by **Leonmc0708** » Tue Dec 11, 2007 10:32 am

Kishan wrote:Who the hell is Rubert Murdoch then?? lol

Well done, a spelling mistake, lets all roll around the floor laughing.

I bet the weekends fly over in your house with all that funny proof reading and that . . . .

by **Leonmc0708** » Tue Dec 11, 2007 10:34 am

bigmick wrote:As always some good points, and I must confess there are elements of Eds stance which I can sympathise with.

Which parts exactly ?

bigmick wrote:His assertion that the "In Rafa we trusters" do not necessarily occupy the middle ground is spot on of course, and I must confess I do get exasperated with various members of the "pro" brigade implying that I am a crackpot for thinking that just perhaps we overdo the tinkering just a bit on occasions.

I am not sure why everyone has to be in a certain brigade or group on here in relation to Rafa.

I am a Liverpool supporter, was for many years before Rafa came, and will be long after the guy has gone, I am pro Benitez as he is the fuc.king manager. I will state clearly when I think he gets it wrong, but I will equally back him when I think people are lazily using rotation/zonal marking/his stubborness/Gerrard substitutions (*Delete where appropriate) to pin the blame for EVERY single loss firmly on him. The same people then claim that EVERY thing we won was in spite of him. Not sure how that one works myself like.

In relation to you, I think your stance has been consistent if a little unmoving, but I respect you for that. I want you to be proven wrong, only cus it will mean we win and not cus I dislike or oppose your views.

bigmick wrote:I've said all along that if Rafa is proven correct, and that "Rafa style" is the way to go, then Wenger is wrong, Ferguson, Mourinho and just about every footballer who has ever played the game professionally over here.

Not sure how that works, as all of the managers you have mentioned rotate their squads. Wenger is renound for "putting the kids in" Furgeson was slated two weeks ago for leaving Ronaldo out of the squad when they lost at bolton and Jose made the "untouchable 7" statement ring tru by changing all but these seven most games.

Benitez didnt invent rotation, he simply employs it.

bigmick wrote:Stand by the manager by all means, stand up for your beliefs by all means, but the people who don't totally buy into the various theories about "freshness", "resting players" and "using the whole squad" aren't complete nutters. Traditionalists maybe, but nutters? no.

Again not sure if you think I have labelled anyone a nutter, but show me a team that has won the league in the last ten years that has used less than 20 players.

At times Benitez over eggs the mixture, but he is not alone in doing it. He also does it between games that we win. It ust conveniently never gets mentioned then.

bigmick wrote:Sometimes it's the refusal to accept the glaringly obvious on both sides which gets peoples backs up. I notice Leon, Bad Bob and Sabre all came out fairly quickly after the Reading game and accepted there had probably been an error in selection. Fair enough as there fairly obviosly was. Similarly, it would have been ridiculous to pretend as an anti-rotationer that we weren't previously playing very well, and that some of our pronouncements that Rafa had "seen the light" had proved to be groundless.

The glaringly obvious is impossible to ignore. Rafa got it wrong Saturday, but everyone makes mistakes. I think we are agreeing heree then ?

bigmick wrote:I've enjoyed the debate over the years, and I've learnt lots of things. had you have asked me whether it was possible to defend with the kind of watertight organisation that we have shown this season (obviously apart from the last game) I would have said no. I would have been wrong though, as the combination of zonally defending set-pieces and a reluctance to play any real offside trap, along with a permanently sat central midfielder has given us the best defence in the league. What gets me though is you'll get some wound up little rose-tinter reading that and saying to himself, "yeah ya fecker just shows you doesn't it? Fecking knee-jerker" and yet really, he won't have the most basic fecking clue what I'm actually on about

I will just nod to make out like I know what your talking about here. :nod

Seriously though, its great, and I have tried to avoid the told you so's which has been difficult, but I get no pleasure from proving people wrong, I get mine from watching hte reds win.

bigmick wrote:Who knows, perhaps there is the possibility that I'll get to learn the ultimate truth, that "Rafa style" really is the way to go. I have to say though, i don't think this is anymore a possibility now than I did before the season even started, and even if it comes to pass, it doesn't mean those that need to see evidence before they buy into the whole doctrine are cranks.

I hope you do get proven wrong, but I personalyl dotn think that will happen this season.

by **Sabre** » Tue Dec 11, 2007 10:49 am

It seems to me that on this site its ok to slag off certain players, but criticise certain other players or the manager and the wolf pack immediately jumps on your back. We have the Alonso protectionist society (honory president Sabre). The Rafa for god group (Life chairman Lando), no doubt we will soon have the Torres is our king faction (I'm thinking of running for this office myself) etc etc I just think if a few people would ease off a little we would get much better and much more interesting and honest discussion. After all its not as if anything we say really matters at the end of the day. Rafa will continue to rotate whether we all agree or not

Well it would help to the forum aswell if you didn't want to try to sell Alonso for Aguero and a packet of rollos :angry:

Personally I don't like too much to jump on the back of people, but here we go, I'll try to moderate.

That is, unless you want to try to sell Alonso for Aguero and a packet of rollos

by **JoeTerp** » Tue Dec 11, 2007 10:57 am

bigmick wrote:The last thing, and please forguive me but I don't agree with this bit You say it's possible to be pro Rafa nad anti rotation, which is feasible I agree. But you also say it's possible to be pro-rotation but anti-Rafa, and I can't quite get me head round that one

I did say that it would be less likely to find someone in that mold. I guess it would be someone who doesn't agree with his buying or the way he motivates his players or zonal marking, but loves to rotate "Rafa Style". Any yes it could be possible that this is just a theoretical person.

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