Liverpool FC Forum

by **kunilson** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 6:45 pm

so there's sunshiners and d and g'ers. whats in the middle of that?

by **Sabre** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 6:47 pm

kunilson wrote:so there's sunshiners and d and g'ers. whats in the middle of that?

In the middle of that you have many posters like S@int, who has been always in the middle, and apart from them, a lot of posters that go to one side and another depending on the results.

It's all fun

by **bigmick** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 8:55 pm

I'll come back on this later as it's a good thread with some interesting views. I do find it frustrating that at times the "In Rafa we trusters" (that's the best I can come up with as a counterpoint to the "doomer and gloomer", which I must admit is much better

) seek to characterise anybody who dares to have a view which opposes theirs.

"Fickle"being the classic example. How on Earth it can be considered fickle to openly oppose rotation "Rafa style" just about since day one, to openly say, time and time again that no team will ever win or come close to winning the English Premier League whilst altering the players, the formation and the tactics in the manner which our manager employs ("Rafa-style" for short)? How can it be fickle to rigidly stick to your guns and believe you are calling it right, often under the severest scrutiny on here? I don't understand that one.

There is probably one poster on the "doomer and gloomer" side and I'll name the bloke (Heimdall) who could be considered fickle as he got over excited by a couple of wins earlier in the season and openly calls for the managers head now, but I think everyone else has been quite sensible all things considered. Only last week I was pleading with the pro-rotationers, I'll name a couple of them again who were guilty, Sabre and Lando to not be counting their chickens on the rotation front just yet, lets leave the backslapping and the mickey taking till the end of the season.

I'm not having a pop at either poster there, but I feel that when you get all sure of yourself lifes got a habit of kicking you in the goolies. No sooner had the pro's pronounced the anti's dead in the water than we lose to fecking Reading with a heavily rotated formation.

Hopefully, the anti-rotationers who got carried away will get a good kick in the goolies against marseilles as Rafa makes eight changes and we win 3-0. It's a long season, those of us who looked at the teamsheets, scrutinized and scribbled and kidded ourselves that Rafa had "seen the light", "seen the error of his ways" were wrong. He is going to stick to his guns 100% and fair play to him for it, by the END of the season if it all lasts that long (that's reference to the owners not to my views) we will know whether rotation "Rafa style" was a good idea this season. Sure you'll get the odd person who says, "ah yes we won the Premiership but we would have won it easier if he hadn't rotated", or "but tenth is about how good we are, without rotation we would have got relegated" but most people I think have by now made clear what they consider to be a success or not, and most people will accept where they stand in comparison.

For my part I've said just to reitereate that a sensible title challenge is awithin around two wins of the eventual Champions, and I think we are well capable of that. Allowing for the LFC factor we will see. Further, and once again I've made no secret of this, should I be right and we finish a fairly long way adrift of that, I would advocate changing the manager at the end of the season as I am absolutely certain that he isn't ever going to modify his team selection methods.

It's not fickle to say he made a mistake on Saturday, it's an opinion. It wasn't fickle to say I thought he made a mistake against Porto at Home (especially after we'd just won 4-1) but some of us did. Equally, it's not fickle to say what i've just said int he paragraph above and know that so many people will passionately disagree. It's not fickle, it's probably the opposite.

by **Sabre** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 9:08 pm

Bigmick says

There is probably one poster on the "doomer and gloomer" side and I'll name the bloke (Heimdall) who could be considered fickle as he got over excited by a couple of wins earlier in the season and openly calls for the managers head now, but I think everyone else has been quite sensible all things considered. Only last week I was pleading with the pro-rotationers, I'll name a couple of them again who were guilty, Sabre and Lando to not be counting their chickens on the rotation front just yet, lets leave the backslapping and the mickey taking till the end of the season.

Why, because my telescope comments? and all that?

It was not gloating, I for one have said from day one that at the end of the season and no before it's the time to say who's right or wrong. And I've said aswell and I reiterate that if we fail blatantly I'll eat humble pie.

What I did was nothing but some tongue in cheek comments. Meaning, 4 weeks ago you were asking whether we were still on our rotation ship, and chained to the mast, and I simply commented in tongue in cheek that I could see many sailors jumping from the antirotation ship. The battle is not won, I'm just having fun with the ships thing because the wind was behind our ship, but we all know wind changes in newkit, almost in the space of a week.

So yes, you're right, the chickens must be counted in May. However, note that nor me, nor Lando, have opened a thread saying Rafa is a master tactician after the last wins, where as a thread doubting Rafa's abilities was opened as soon as the game against Reading ended. Of course, then Arsenal lost their game against Boro and that made that thread milder, but, FFS, it doesn't take much of a blip to the antiRafa feelings appear eh? Maybe the antiRafas should count the chickens in may aswell?

As for fickle, I haven't considered you fickle, ever. You've put your position clear enough through out this years. I want to make that clear.

by **kunilson** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 9:18 pm

i admit to praising rafa to godlike status, but i was on a high after vegas soooo there.

but yeah its the wait and see game i reckon, one things for sure in my books. united must be beat on sunday. there's too much for me at stake and im sure rafa is aware of that

by **bigmick** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 9:30 pm

Sabes I'm not criticising you or Lando, not at all. You've both stucjk to your guns throughout and fair play. I have commented a few times recently though (and perhaps I shouldn't have named you as you aren't the main perpetrator, sorry mate) that one or two people have been getting a bit back slappy after a couple of wins.

Similarly, one or two of the anti's are straight onto it if we lose one, "rotation doesn't work and this is proof" etc etc. I just wish everyone would let each other have their views, discuss and argue it out by all means, but all this "fickle", "clueless" stuff doesn't get anybody anywhere.

Sorry though to you and Lando, because it doesn't matter that I wasn't having a pop, when it's read back it sounds like I was.

by **Sabre** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 9:50 pm

No worries Bigmick! No offence taken, I just preffer to clarify things, sometimes I don't get well what's the atmosphere of the forum, and who knows, some of the words that are intended as a joke might get across as "gloating" or "boasting" or pretending that I was saying "you lot, repent and kneel down, you were wrong".

by **Leonmc0708** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 10:05 pm

bigmick wrote:Sabes I'm not criticising you or Lando, not at all. You've both stucjk to your guns throughout and fair play. I have commented a few times recently though (and perhaps I shouldn't have named you as you aren't the main perpetrator, sorry mate) that one or two people have been getting a bit back slappy after a couple of wins.

Similarly, one or two of the anti's are straight onto it if we lose one, "rotation doesn't work and this is proof" etc etc. I just wish everyone would let each other have their views, discuss and argue it out by all means, but all this "fickle", "clueless" stuff doesn't get anybody anywhere.

Sorry though to you and Lando, because it doesn't matter that I wasn't having a pop, when it's read back it sounds like I was.

Who are you having a pop at then ?

by **account deleted by request** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 10:09 pm

Leonmc0708 wrote:
bigmick wrote:Sabes I'm not criticising you or Lando, not at all. You've both stucjk to your guns throughout and fair play. I have commented a few times recently though (and perhaps I shouldn't have named you as you aren't the main perpetrator, sorry mate) that one or two people have been getting a bit back slappy after a couple of wins.

Similarly, one or two of the anti's are straight onto it if we lose one, "rotation doesn't work and this is proof" etc etc. I just wish everyone would let each other have their views, discuss and argue it out by all means, but all this "fickle", "clueless" stuff doesn't get anybody anywhere.

Sorry though to you and Lando, because it doesn't matter that I wasn't having a pop, when it's read back it sounds like I was.

Who are you having a pop at then ?

He told me it was you Leon

by **Leonmc0708** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 10:32 pm

s@int wrote:
Leonmc0708 wrote:
bigmick wrote:Sabes I'm not criticising you or Lando, not at all. You've both stucjk to your guns throughout and fair play. I have commented a few times recently though (and perhaps I shouldn't have named you as you aren't the main perpetrator, sorry mate) that one or two people have been getting a bit back slappy after a couple of wins.

Similarly, one or two of the anti's are straight onto it if we lose one, "rotation doesn't work and this is proof" etc etc. I just wish everyone would let each other have their views, discuss and argue it out by all means, but all this "fickle", "clueless" stuff doesn't get anybody anywhere.

Sorry though to you and Lando, because it doesn't matter that I wasn't having a pop, when it's read back it sounds like I was.

Who are you having a pop at then ?

He told me it was you Leon

I knew it

by **Kishan** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 10:54 pm

Who the hell is Rubert Murdoch then?? lol

by **hello_red** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 11:06 pm

Leonmc0708 wrote:I am amazed at times with some people who post on internet forums, the only kind of consistency most of the time is their incosistency.

How can you go from looking like we are going to win the league last week to defo not a chance this week ?

Is this same rationale (loss at a smaller club) to be applied to all of the title contenders ? Surely it needs to be does it not ? Great, cus then that means that United (Bolton) Arsenal (Boro) and our selves (Reading) are out of the title race already . . . . . .

Its a well known and much maligned theory that you see and learn more about your people in the face of a loss/defeat than you ever can following victories. It says a lot for our fans, and the word fickle definitely springs to mind, when following a defeat the same people who where eulogising about 21 goals in five games talk of slipping out of the title race after one loss.

We are not the Harlem Globe Trotters, and as such will not win every game. In fact the great sides of the seventies and eighties never won every game. Even the Invincible Arsenal actually only won 68% of their games in the infamous "invincibles" season.

Since football was invented by Rubert Murdoch, otherwise known as the inception of the Premier League, the winners of the league have fared as follows:

1992/93 - Man United
Lost 6 of 42 = 14.2%
Drawn 12 of 42 = 28.5%

1993/94 - Man United
Lost 4 of 42 = 9.5%
Drawn 11 of 42 = 26.1%

1994/95 - Blackburn
Lost 7 of 42 = 16.6%
Drawn 8 of 42 = 19%

1995/96 - Man United
Lost 6 of 38 = 15.7%
Drawn 7 of 38 = 18.4%

1996/97 - Man United
Lost 5 of 38 = 13.1%
Drawn 12 of 38 = 31.5%

1997/98 - Arsenal
Lost 6 of 38 = 15.7%
Drawn 7 of 38 = 18.4%

1998/99 - Man United
Lost 3 of 38 = 7.8%
Drawn 13 of 38 = 34.2%

1999/2000 - Man United
Lost 3 of 38 = 7.8%
Drawn 7 of 38 = 18.4%

2000/01 - Man United
Lost 6 of 38 = 15.7%
Drawn 8 of 38 = 21%

2001/02 - Man United
Lost 3 of 38 = 7.8%
Drawn 9 of 38 = 23.6%

2002/03 - Man United
Lost 5 of 38 = 13.1%
Drawn 8 of 38 = 21%

2003/04 - Arsenal
Lost 0 of 38 = 0%
Drawn 12 of 38 = 31.5%

2004/05 - Chelsea
Lost 1 of 38 = 2.6%
Drawn 8 of 38 = 21%

2005/06 - Chelsea
Lost 5 of 38 = 13.1%
Drawn 4 of 38 = 10.5%

2006/07 - Man United
Lost 5 of 38 = 13.1%
Drawn 5 of 38 = 13.1%

Only once has a team gone the whole season without loss, on average the league winners have lost 4.3 games per season and drawn 8.7 games over the last 15 years.

We currently have 1 loss and 6 draws. It looks like the four draws at home to date could cause us the biggest problem in our quest for the holy grail.

Interestingly if we are to clock up as many as 11, 12 or 13 draws in one season then the only team to have done this and still won the league with at least one defeat on the clock are United, in 92/93, 93/94, 96/97 and 98/99.

Agree mate!

Maybe im blind to the glaringly obvious or have rose tinted specs on?

If so, I dont give a flying :censored:

!

by **NANNY RED** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 11:35 pm

Didnt see the game at the weekend only read the reports in the papers but im not worried cause i still think well win the league. ITs only one game ffs, gone are the days when you go through a season unbeaten and im made up that its took us into December to come to that. END OF

by **JoeTerp** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 11:42 pm

Agree with Leon. It is important to look at history to REMIND people that every title winner drops points here and there, and that we are still in it with a fighting chance, and a LOT of people (many of them I noticed were not frequent posters but some of the more regulars as well) were extra harsh after our first loss of the season. They key thing going forward is whether this is a shift in confidence and form or an aberration

by **imouthep** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 11:55 pm

great post leon I am glad to see that there are some people who look at the bigger picture. The allmighty arsenal lost to a team below Reading Man U got shafted by Bolton we are not immortal. Yes I agree that we played badly and the formation caused us many problems but I just got the feeling that, contrary to what rafa and the players said their minds were just not in this one. I mean who would be able to concentrate with Man U looming following a massive game against Marseille away! Our players are only human and although many will not agree with me I was glad to see Torres come off the field He was getting hacked to pieces out there and many of the challenges had me swearing profanities like some deranged maniac. Yes we shouldn't drop points like that and yes we could have closed the gap on arsenal but all great mangers make mistakes. Alex did against Bolton and he was thinking of the champs league then. I beleive our quest for the holy grail has so many of us going nuts that we get a little irrational. We need to be patient, take losses when they come and move forward.

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