Liverpool FC Forum

by **Owzat** » Thu Nov 29, 2007 9:17 am

Despite being slaughtered by many for his England form, Gerrard has been in fantastic goalscoring form for Liverpool - proof, if ever any was needed, that a good manager gets the best out of star players.

Anyway I was comparing Crouch to Torres and also looked at Gerrard's scoring record since Rafa arrived, it makes very interesting reading.

2004/5-2007/8

Gerrard (goals/season)

2004/5 10 goals in 43 appearances (0.233 goals/app)
2005/6 23 goals in 53 appearances (0.434 goals/app)
2006/7 11 goals in 51 appearances (0.216 goals/app)
2007/8 8 goals in 19 appearances (0.421 goals/app)

Makes the efforts of most of our strikers in that same period look feeble

Gerrard vs Crouch

Gerrard - 52 goals in 166 appearances (0.313 goals/app)
Crouch - 35 goals in 112 appearances (0.313 goals/app)

Fair enough Crouch doesn't get as many minutes as Gerrard, but Gerrard doesn't play up front.............

Crouch vs Torres vs Fowler

Goals/Appearance

Torres - 10 goals in 16 appearances (0.625 goals/app)
Fowler - 13 goals in 37 appearances (0.351 goals/app)
Crouch - 35 goals in 112 appearances (0.313 goals/app)

Mins/Goal

Torres - 10 goals in 1115 mins (112 mins/goal)
Fowler - 13 goals in 1798 mins (138 mins/goal)
Crouch - 35 goals in 6547 mins (187 mins/goal)

90+ mins played

Torres - 9 goals in 9 appearances (1.000 goals/app)
Fowler - 6 goals in 6 appearances (1.000 goals/app)
Crouch - 15 goals in 28 appearances (0.536 goals/app)

60-89 mins played

Torres - 0 goals in 2 appearances (0.000 goals/app)
Fowler - 6 goals in 14 appearances (0.429 goals/app)
Crouch - 14 goals in 42 appearances (0.333 goals/app)

0-59 mins played

Torres - 1 goal in 5 appearances (0.200 goals/app)
Fowler - 1 goal in 17 appearances (0.059 goals/app)
Crouch - 6 goals in 42 appearances (0.143 goals/app)

In fairness to Fowler 8 of those 17 appearances were 10 mins or less and his average mins over those cameos was just 14

Average mins played

Torres - 1115 mins over 16 appearances (69.5 mins/app)
Fowler - 1798 mins over 37 appearances (48.5 mins/app)
Crouch - 6547 mins over 112 appearances (58.5 mins/app)

In the games Torres played 45 mins or less Liverpool's record is P5 W2 D3 L0 F4 A1. One Champions League match he came on late for was already won, two of the draws are notorious in that we all thought he should have started and both ended 0-0 vs Pompey away and Brum at home

by **NiftyNeil** » Thu Nov 29, 2007 9:34 am

Owzat wrote:Crouch vs Torres vs Fowler

Goals/Appearance

Torres - 10 goals in 16 appearances (0.625 goals/app)
Fowler - 13 goals in 37 appearances (0.351 goals/app)
Crouch - 35 goals in 112 appearances (0.313 goals/app)

Mins/Goal

Torres - 10 goals in 1115 mins (112 mins/goal)
Fowler - 13 goals in 1798 mins (138 mins/goal)
Crouch - 35 goals in 6547 mins (187 mins/goal)

Some good stats there owzat.
It would be interesting to see Crouch's record since he scored his first goal for Liverpool. It took him the best part of 4 months to get off the mark, but has gone from strength to strength since.

by **66-1112520797** » Thu Nov 29, 2007 10:04 am

I know you dont rate Crouch which is your opinion and one where you'll find youself IMO completey WRONG.

But why not throw Kuyts ratio up there, and Voronin from this season and compare them both to Crouch.

Those states dont really fully gauge Gerrard, well they do but its more of a "Crouch is not good enough' stats, that when posted by you coincedently left out Kuyt especially and even mins on pitch compared to Voronin.

Easy to make stats look, in favour of your own opinion. :;):

by **Leonmc0708** » Thu Nov 29, 2007 12:27 pm

Crouch's stats will be similar to those of Kuyt I would guess, but Owzat will no doubt provide hte answer.

Kuyt's scored 6 in 15 appearances
Crouch's scored 4 in 15 appearances

Albeit less minutes, but no one remebers how long people where on hte pitch for, just how many goals they scored.

by **stmichael** » Thu Nov 29, 2007 12:36 pm

gerrard and torres should be starting every game from now on as they're our 2 biggest goal threats. they've already scored 18 between them this season.

as for crouch, the stats don't lie. when he plays, we generally perform better as a team and he generally scores or assists. he is as "proven PL quality" as there is. he's even proven CL quality. the only reason we should sell him is if he makes it perfectly clear he doesn't want to be at liverpool anymore. otherwise it would be madness to let him go.

by **JC_81** » Thu Nov 29, 2007 12:49 pm

stmichael wrote:gerrard and torres should be starting every game from now on as they're our 2 biggest goal threats. they've already scored 18 between them this season.

as for crouch, the stats don't lie. when he plays, we generally perform better as a team and he generally scores or assists.

Definitely agree with your first point St Mike. Torres and Gerrard are our best attacking players by far. I think Gerrard will be enjoying not having all the pressure on him to be the difference in big games, same with Torres as it was the same for him at Athletico. We are seeing that benefit both of their games'.

Not for the first time this season, Torres was the difference for us last night. He didn't even have his best game and still scored 2. Far from his confidence being shot after his misses v Newcastle, he stepped right back up to the plate v Porto and didn't shy away - great to see.

As for the second point, that the team generally looks better with Crouch in it and that he tends to be involved in our goals, it should be mentioned that generally Benitez only starts Crouch against lesser opposition these days. CL final, Everton/Chelsea/Arsenal this season, Porto last night - Crouch didn't start. Generally the team will look better against lesser opposition whether Crouch is in the team or not. I think this is the biggest indication that Crouch's days could be numbered at Anfield. I have to say though that I'd be tempted to give him a run in the team alongside Torres - I certainly think he'd score more than Voronin or Kuyt given a chance.

by **stmichael** » Thu Nov 29, 2007 1:38 pm

john craig wrote:Torres and Gerrard are our best attacking players by far. I think Gerrard will be enjoying not having all the pressure on him to be the difference in big games, same with Torres as it was the same for him at Athletico. We are seeing that benefit both of their games'.

Not for the first time this season, Torres was the difference for us last night. He didn't even have his best game and still scored 2. Far from his confidence being shot after his misses v Newcastle, he stepped right back up to the plate v Porto and didn't shy away - great to see.

10 goals in 13 starts is not bad for a player who was described as "not a clinical finisher" by several people when he signed (sabre included) :oops:

the guy is the best striker in the league right now bar none. infact he reminds me of henry in the way he seems to glide past players when the ball is at his feet.

who here wanted tevez over torres again? come on own up.

by **JC_81** » Thu Nov 29, 2007 1:47 pm

stmichael wrote:
john craig wrote:Torres and Gerrard are our best attacking players by far. I think Gerrard will be enjoying not having all the pressure on him to be the difference in big games, same with Torres as it was the same for him at Athletico. We are seeing that benefit both of their games'.

Not for the first time this season, Torres was the difference for us last night. He didn't even have his best game and still scored 2. Far from his confidence being shot after his misses v Newcastle, he stepped right back up to the plate v Porto and didn't shy away - great to see.

10 goals in 13 starts is not bad for a player who was described as "not a clinical finisher" by several people when he signed (sabre included)

the guy is the best striker in the league right now bar none. infact he reminds me of henry in the way he seems to glide past players when the ball is at his feet.

who here wanted tevez over torres again? come on own up.

I'll admit. Back in the summer I said Tevez over Torres, take it back now though. Although Tevez has hardly been a flop either has he? He's doing the business for United.

I'm genuinely surprised at how quickly Torres has adapted and how many he's scored at this stage. Didn't predict that at all.

Does remind me of Henry a bit also. Although Torres can score with his head too. Henry on the other hand was lethal from long range - Torres hasn't scored from outside the box yet - my only criticism if you can call it that!

by **stmichael** » Thu Nov 29, 2007 1:57 pm

john craig wrote:I'm genuinely surprised at how quickly Torres has adapted and how many he's scored at this stage. Didn't predict that at all.

I think this is just natural due to the false dawns that were Morientes, Cisse etc down the years. They came here with great expectations and just didn't do it. As for Torres I've been impressed since day one.

Against Chelsea and Reading he proved that despite getting kicked all over the place he isn't afraid of rough challenges that come his way and just gets on with the game. The result? A goal against Chelsea and a hatrick against Reading. Exactly the way to answer back.

He's also not afraid to miss which is the sign of a good striker. If quite a few strikers miss as many chances as he did against Newcastle or even Sunderland earlier in the season, they are usually quiet for a few games, shirking responsibility and trying to 'ease' confidence back in. Torres just put that game out of his mind, and just slotted away his chances last night.

by **account deleted by request** » Thu Nov 29, 2007 2:05 pm

stmichael wrote:
john craig wrote:Torres and Gerrard are our best attacking players by far. I think Gerrard will be enjoying not having all the pressure on him to be the difference in big games, same with Torres as it was the same for him at Athletico. We are seeing that benefit both of their games'.

Not for the first time this season, Torres was the difference for us last night. He didn't even have his best game and still scored 2. Far from his confidence being shot after his misses v Newcastle, he stepped right back up to the plate v Porto and didn't shy away - great to see.

10 goals in 13 starts is not bad for a player who was described as "not a clinical finisher" by several people when he signed (sabre included)

the guy is the best striker in the league right now bar none. infact he reminds me of henry in the way he seems to glide past players when the ball is at his feet.

who here wanted tevez over torres again? come on own up.

I wanted Tevez AND Torres, does that count? and with all the rumours flying about now that Alonso is going to A.Madrid I would like Aguero in p/x.

by **terrydixon** » Thu Nov 29, 2007 2:13 pm

Yes, Torres is an unbelievable striker. I havent seen a striker of that calibre since Michael Owen. He can shoot every game a goal, what is very important in this phase of Premier League and Champions League.

And about Coruch... I think he could better play together with Torres, than Torres with Kuyt, because Kuyt and Torres have nearly the same striker character.

I wouldnt find it very good, to sell Crouch, but Benítez wants it and so I think in the winterperiod Crouch has got a new club.

by **Owzat** » Thu Nov 29, 2007 2:14 pm

Bamaga man wrote:I know you dont rate Crouch which is your opinion and one where you'll find youself IMO completey WRONG.

But why not throw Kuyts ratio up there, and Voronin from this season and compare them both to Crouch.

Those states dont really fully gauge Gerrard, well they do but its more of a "Crouch is not good enough' stats, that when posted by you coincedently left out Kuyt especially and even mins on pitch compared to Voronin.

Easy to make stats look, in favour of your own opinion.

It is my opinion, mine is that "you'll find youself IMO completey WRONG." WTF is the point saying that? "I disagree" is better and simpler, but you obviously wanted to twist the words so you could make it a statement that I'm wrong

I ran out of time and Voronin and Kuyt's may not be so extensive so that will have to wait.

And the only way you'll make Crouch look good is to say "he's got a good touch", "he scores vital goals" etc. You avoid stats because you don't like what they show. Is it only for Crouch you shy away from stats? He must be special, noone is allowed to do his stats because it shows he's ordinary.

by **Owzat** » Thu Nov 29, 2007 2:19 pm

Leonmc0708 wrote:Crouch's stats will be similar to those of Kuyt I would guess, but Owzat will no doubt provide hte answer.

Kuyt's scored 6 in 15 appearances
Crouch's scored 4 in 15 appearances

Albeit less minutes, but no one remebers how long people where on hte pitch for, just how many goals they scored.

I guessed someone might suggest it was lack of minutes so that's why I included them, not saying that you were that someone. I left myself 10 mins to get out the door and normally I take 20 so noone else had better complain about absent stats.

I am looking at putting the records into one spreadsheet, the principle point was because I noticed how good Gerrard's scoring record has been. I don't even have a spreadsheet for Voronin, however if I put them all in one then I will have those figures - once I check the mins on the pitch which can take time.

No doubt Bananaman wants me to include rubbish strikers to show how 'great' Crouch is, however that's scraping the barrel. Plus of course there's much talk of Crouch and Torres being the best partnership while I did the straight comparison for strikers a while back. I suggest someone searches my past posts if they want the Kuyt vs Bellamy vs Crouch type stats as they won't have changed dramatically

by **Ace Ventura** » Thu Nov 29, 2007 2:27 pm

s@int wrote:
stmichael wrote:
john craig wrote:Torres and Gerrard are our best attacking players by far. I think Gerrard will be enjoying not having all the pressure on him to be the difference in big games, same with Torres as it was the same for him at Athletico. We are seeing that benefit both of their games'.

Not for the first time this season, Torres was the difference for us last night. He didn't even have his best game and still scored 2. Far from his confidence being shot after his misses v Newcastle, he stepped right back up to the plate v Porto and didn't shy away - great to see.

10 goals in 13 starts is not bad for a player who was described as "not a clinical finisher" by several people when he signed (sabre included)

the guy is the best striker in the league right now bar none. infact he reminds me of henry in the way he seems to glide past players when the ball is at his feet.

who here wanted tevez over torres again? come on own up.

I wanted Tevez AND Torres, does that count? and with all the rumours flying about now that Alonso is going to A.Madrid I would like Aguero in p/x.

What rumours about Alonso ?

by **Fowler_E7** » Thu Nov 29, 2007 2:27 pm

stmichael wrote:
john craig wrote:Torres and Gerrard are our best attacking players by far. I think Gerrard will be enjoying not having all the pressure on him to be the difference in big games, same with Torres as it was the same for him at Athletico. We are seeing that benefit both of their games'.

Not for the first time this season, Torres was the difference for us last night. He didn't even have his best game and still scored 2. Far from his confidence being shot after his misses v Newcastle, he stepped right back up to the plate v Porto and didn't shy away - great to see.

10 goals in 13 starts is not bad for a player who was described as "not a clinical finisher" by several people when he signed (sabre included)

the guy is the best striker in the league right now bar none. infact he reminds me of henry in the way he seems to glide past players when the ball is at his feet.

who here wanted tevez over torres again? come on own up.

i remember YOU saying he was completly overated once as well

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Gerrard in fine scoring form - Some goalscoring comparisons

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