Liverpool FC Forum

by **ConnO'var** » Tue Nov 20, 2007 1:46 pm

Are we good enough?
With the heaviest of hearts, I have to admit that the answer, to my mind at least, is no.

Our team balance is not quite there yet. As many have said, we're short of a few pieces.

1. When Agger is out, we lack a ball playing centre back. For me this key as the 2 that we do have, while being excellent in their own right, do have limitations. With both Carra and Hyypia in the team, our distribution from the back is lacking. This has a cascading effect as our midfield anchor then has to sit a little deeper to take the ball off them.... failing which, the ball gets hoofed upfield and is more often than not, easily defended against. This in turn necessitates one of our strikers to move in a little deeper to pick up the ball. With Kuyt filling this role, we're one man short upfront in the build up to our attacks and often he's lack of pace makes it too late for him to join the attack once the ball is moved pass him while we're in possession.

2. All this is compounded by our lack of width in midfield. The current options available to provide that particular outlet are simply not up to the task just yet. When Harry was fit, the left side was sorted but the right was still problematic. At the end of the day, much as I hate it, with this CURRENT squad the only viable option is Gerrard. Even if Pennant was fit, Gerrard is still the best we have on the right. By no means do I think that it's his best position.... It galls me that we need to play the best central midfielder in the world (IMO) there but theres no real choice unfortunately.

3. Unlike most, I don't think that the striker is our main problematic area. I've always felt that Kuyt had the potential to do really well there as a target man but for some reason or other, he's not doing it these days. Whether he doesn't have the ability (or never had it in the 1st place), playing under team orders or whatever other theories going around at the moment I have no idea. My gut feel is that it's team orders and I fear that he's lost whatever confidence or just simply forgotten how to play as a centre forward.

While I agree with s@int's theory that we need a creative second striker, I'm of the opinion that the lack of one is not the reason why the balance looks a little off at the moment. I feel that the way we bring the ball out of the back and the lack of width have compounded the perceived problem with our front line. Albeit if the likes of another Dalglish being out there, I would definitely not say no. The reason for not setting the priority on the striker is simple (maybe too simple).... Without proper width, our creative player would have fewer options as the wings will not be available to him most time to take advantage of as well as making him more predictable to the opposition.

For me, a centre back (Agger can't come back soon enough) and 2 proper wingers or wingbacks are the key pieces missing.

As they say, 20/20 hindsight is a wonderful thing. With the benefit of that, if we had forgone the option on Kuyt and paid the additional 2 million quid to Sevilla for Alves, how much better off would we be today? I'm betting that a lot of people would grab the 2nd option with both hands and the utmost eagerness.

by **stmichael** » Tue Nov 20, 2007 1:49 pm

I think the answer is yes merely because the teams outside the top 4 have improved no end and will take more points off the top 4 than in previous years imo. Two seasons ago we got 82 points and finished 3rd. I wouldn't be surprised if the winners got that this season because all the top teams are taking points off each other aswell. All the games so far have ended in draws.

However my mate was saying the other day that he could see alot of worrying parallels between now and a similar period in autumn 2001 when we were playing terrible but had been grinding out results despite playing terrible. Any criticism of Houllier was met with, we are top of the league and we are unbeaten, etc, and anyone who criticised was shouted down.
That season our unbeaten run came to a grinding halt with a 0-1 defeat away at boro around this time, and the already fragile confidence melted away and we went around 8 games or so without a win and any hopes of winning the title ebbed away.

Then like now, our problems were largely of our own making, by the stubborness of a manager insistent on picking players who were clearly not performing (eg Heskey then, Kuyt now) and too much chopping on changing of the team. Then like now, the manager became stubborn and many excuses were reeled out to try and fend off the criticism.

The squad of 2007/08 is alot bigger and better than in 2001/02 though. We have more than enough in midfield and attack to cope with injuries to both players, and surely this is the reason why Benitez has assembled a squad with 4 strikers, and around 5 or 6 who can play in central midfield? We are unbeaten in the league, and we still have time to turn our season around and make a genuine challenge, but its important we heed the warnings to prevent a possible car crash ahead of 2001 proportions. The next 4 games are certainly favourable until we face the Mancs on 16th December which is a huge game, especially as Chelsea play Arsenal on the same day.

All in all, I'm reserving my final judgement on how I think we'll fair this season until the new year starts. Besiktas aside we've not been firing for a couple of months now and nobody could deny that but looking at our fixtures so far the only results that could be classed as unacceptable for a title challenging team are Birmingham and Spurs. The other games are all ones where the other top sides could or in some cases already have dropped points as well.

As Leon said earlier, with our top players coming back in the next couple of weeks and the fixtures coming up it is not unthinkable that we could be within a point or two of the top by the start of January and in a real position to challenge.

by **Owzat** » Tue Nov 20, 2007 2:20 pm

metalhead wrote:
bigmick wrote:Firstly apologies to Saint (and to a slightly lesser extent Bad Bob) because this is simply a rhetorical question which was asked by them on the rotation thread moved over here because it's a seperate subject.

The point which has been raised on there is that far from rotation being the culprit should we fail to challenge for the title, the real reason is that we are simply short of two or three players and not quite up to it. No amount of sticking to a settled team, finding rhythm and cohesion etc is going to alter that.

Saint has been banging on about this "creative second striker" concept for quite a while now, and he has convinced most of the forum (me included) that there is some validity in what he is saying. The other obvious positions which came up were the wide players and central defensive cover.

So what do you guys think? Completely putting aside rotation for a second (gulp!), are we good enough to win the title? I made a point on there which I stand by that Arsenal are by a country mile a better team than they were last season, I think Man Utd have improved as well, and to be perfectly honest I think so have we. Now I said we could have challenged for the title LAST season, so the question is can we and will we challenge for it this season and maybe win it, or have our immediate rivals just improved beyond our reach?

As I said before, we are still not good enough to win the league, we are short of 2 or 3 quality players, plus we have some really good players that aren't always fit! i.e Aurelio and Kewell.

I'd say probably more like six short at least - a couple of good strikers, one wide on either side of midfield, a LB and a CB. We have players for those positions but some fall short of the standard required

by **account deleted by request** » Tue Nov 20, 2007 2:40 pm

That was my point, if we struggle beating some defences it's not because we lack quality, we have quality enough to reach a CL final. What we have to do is to sort out that problems.

As I tried to explain just because a side can win knockout competitions, even the biggest knockout competition does not mean they are going to win Leagues (or even challenge) In cup competitions there has to be a winner of each tie in each round. In the league many teams see a draw as a great result, whereas for a team with title ambitions a few draws too many and your chance has gone.A cup is played over relatively few games scattered over the season so that injuries aside you can play your best 11, the League is week in week out. We also have had the advantage that our title challenge has been over before it started.

Just because a team reaches a final or even wins a cup doesn't mean they have the team(or the squad ) necessary to win the League, else why would Southampton, Millwall and West ham have all reached the FA CUP FINAL IN THE LAST 4 YEARS.

As for S@int post and that list of excellent players (I haven't seen ALL of them but yes most of them) I have a doubt and it's related to my different notion of creative second striker. If you had Zinedine Zidane at his best and ready to play for Liverpool, which player of our theoretically best starting eleven would you sit down? If I get you right Kuyt is being given that role and he doesn't fulfill it and you think a Zidane-ish player would make a difference?

Unfortunately I have only really watched Zidane play for France to any extent, I have seen him in a few games for R.Madrid but usually just the clips of the fantastic goals, and fabulous dribbles etc. I would say that a player of his ability could fill the role (or most others with a ball) but for me he didn't really fill that role for France or Madrid, but more a leftsided A.midfield player who still attacked with flair and created but not as a second striker(more a Fabrigas than a Rooney). Djorkaeff and even Henry filled that role, both with different styles and at different times.

You are perfectly correct that I think Kuyt has been given that role by Rafa. Hoping he can do with effort and hard work, what others do with skill, vision, and natural ability.(bit harsh but probably true)

Dalglish with Rush or Beardsley with Alderidge is more what I was thinking of, playing higher up the field than Zidane.

Rush used to say when asked how he managed to score all those goals " I have no idea, I run into space and Dalglish makes sure the ball reaches me" (or words to that effect). Same with Mcdermott, he used to make lung bursting runs, and Dalglish was the one that made sure the ball reached him.

A creative second striker would get just as many goals as Kuyt :laugh:

but would create so many more for his strike partner, Gerrard and other team mates. Its the creative strikers job to open tight defences, Kuyt would unfortunately struggle to open a tin of Tuna.

by **Scottbot** » Tue Nov 20, 2007 2:50 pm

Hand on heart.....No.....i can't really see it this year. I don't think we are as good as our rivals. I can't (as yet) see us going to the Emirates, Trafford or the Stanford and getting a win and that is what will be required. We didn't beat Chelsea or Arsenal at home so Utd in a few weeks time will be MASSIVE. Win that game and you never know. I still think we are short of players and agree with those that have pointed out we only have 2 genuine goal threats in Torres and Gerrard. For me we are still short another striker (Anelka would do) and someone special to play in wide-areas but i doubt they will give Rafa the money. A fit and firing Kewell would make a big difference but it's the stuff of nursery rymes.

I never really believed we would win it this year, it's not just about the personnel, it's the history of the club, the weight of expectation and the culture within the club. The players have never been in the running for the title and have never experienced the pressure of being in the title race. I'd be chuffed to still be in the running come March. If we are then you never know.

by **ConnO'var** » Tue Nov 20, 2007 2:52 pm

s@int wrote:Its the creative strikers job to open tight defences, Kuyt would unfortunately struggle to open a tin of Tuna.

Almost fell out me chair laughing with that one.

by **stmichael** » Tue Nov 20, 2007 3:17 pm

s@int wrote:
That was my point, if we struggle beating some defences it's not because we lack quality, we have quality enough to reach a CL final. What we have to do is to sort out that problems.

As I tried to explain just because a side can win knockout competitions, even the biggest knockout competition does not mean they are going to win Leagues (or even challenge) In cup competitions there has to be a winner of each tie in each round. In the league many teams see a draw as a great result, whereas for a team with title ambitions a few draws too many and your chance has gone.A cup is played over relatively few games scattered over the season so that injuries aside you can play your best 11, the League is week in week out. We also have had the advantage that our title challenge has been over before it started.

Just because a team reaches a final or even wins a cup doesn't mean they have the team(or the squad ) necessary to win the League, else why would Southampton, Millwall and West ham have all reached the FA CUP FINAL IN THE LAST 4 YEARS.

As for S@int post and that list of excellent players (I haven't seen ALL of them but yes most of them) I have a doubt and it's related to my different notion of creative second striker. If you had Zinedine Zidane at his best and ready to play for Liverpool, which player of our theoretically best starting eleven would you sit down? If I get you right Kuyt is being given that role and he doesn't fulfill it and you think a Zidane-ish player would make a difference?

Unfortunately I have only really watched Zidane play for France to any extent, I have seen him in a few games for R.Madrid but usually just the clips of the fantastic goals, and fabulous dribbles etc. I would say that a player of his ability could fill the role (or most others with a ball) but for me he didn't really fill that role for France or Madrid, but more a leftsided A.midfield player who still attacked with flair and created but not as a second striker(more a Fabrigas than a Rooney). Djorkaeff and even Henry filled that role, both with different styles and at different times.

You are perfectly correct that I think Kuyt has been given that role by Rafa. Hoping he can do with effort and hard work, what others do with skill, vision, and natural ability.(bit harsh but probably true)

Dalglish with Rush or Beardsley with Alderidge is more what I was thinking of, playing higher up the field than Zidane.

Rush used to say when asked how he managed to score all those goals " I have no idea, I run into space and Dalglish makes sure the ball reaches me" (or words to that effect). Same with Mcdermott, he used to make lung bursting runs, and Dalglish was the one that made sure the ball reached him.

A creative second striker would get just as many goals as Kuyt but would create so many more for his strike partner, Gerrard and other team mates. Its the creative strikers job to open tight defences, Kuyt would unfortunately struggle to open a tin of Tuna.

The best way to accomodate a number 10 would be to have Gerrard coming in from the wing (like Zidane) but some people are unwilling to see him play there as if it's beneath him, even though he had his best ever season (certainly in terms of goalscoring) when playing there.

It also depends on the type of number ten you sign, if you buy players like Aimar, Diego, Riquelme then they are midfielders and play deeper than number tens like Tevez who are more second strikers.

Like all positions there isn't a one size fits all solution and this position more than any is dependant on how you set up the rest of the team.

You play Gerrard on the right hand side, I don't care a tuppenny toss whether he likes it there or not. He is best suited to the role and he gives the team more from there. In reality, how much time does he actually spend 'on the right' when he plays there anyway? It gives the team better balance and if we do buy a number 10, then that number 10 has the space to operate in.

by **account deleted by request** » Tue Nov 20, 2007 3:25 pm

stmichael wrote:
s@int wrote:
That was my point, if we struggle beating some defences it's not because we lack quality, we have quality enough to reach a CL final. What we have to do is to sort out that problems.

As I tried to explain just because a side can win knockout competitions, even the biggest knockout competition does not mean they are going to win Leagues (or even challenge) In cup competitions there has to be a winner of each tie in each round. In the league many teams see a draw as a great result, whereas for a team with title ambitions a few draws too many and your chance has gone.A cup is played over relatively few games scattered over the season so that injuries aside you can play your best 11, the League is week in week out. We also have had the advantage that our title challenge has been over before it started.

Just because a team reaches a final or even wins a cup doesn't mean they have the team(or the squad ) necessary to win the League, else why would Southampton, Millwall and West ham have all reached the FA CUP FINAL IN THE LAST 4 YEARS.

As for S@int post and that list of excellent players (I haven't seen ALL of them but yes most of them) I have a doubt and it's related to my different notion of creative second striker. If you had Zinedine Zidane at his best and ready to play for Liverpool, which player of our theoretically best starting eleven would you sit down? If I get you right Kuyt is being given that role and he doesn't fulfill it and you think a Zidane-ish player would make a difference?

Unfortunately I have only really watched Zidane play for France to any extent, I have seen him in a few games for R.Madrid but usually just the clips of the fantastic goals, and fabulous dribbles etc. I would say that a player of his ability could fill the role (or most others with a ball) but for me he didn't really fill that role for France or Madrid, but more a leftsided A.midfield player who still attacked with flair and created but not as a second striker(more a Fabrigas than a Rooney). Djorkaeff and even Henry filled that role, both with different styles and at different times.

You are perfectly correct that I think Kuyt has been given that role by Rafa. Hoping he can do with effort and hard work, what others do with skill, vision, and natural ability.(bit harsh but probably true)

Dalglish with Rush or Beardsley with Alderidge is more what I was thinking of, playing higher up the field than Zidane.

Rush used to say when asked how he managed to score all those goals " I have no idea, I run into space and Dalglish makes sure the ball reaches me" (or words to that effect). Same with Mcdermott, he used to make lung bursting runs, and Dalglish was the one that made sure the ball reached him.

A creative second striker would get just as many goals as Kuyt but would create so many more for his strike partner, Gerrard and other team mates. Its the creative strikers job to open tight defences, Kuyt would unfortunately struggle to open a tin of Tuna.

The best way to accomodate a number 10 would be to have Gerrard coming in from the wing (like Zidane) but some people are unwilling to see him play there as if it's beneath him, even though he had his best ever season (certainly in terms of goalscoring) when playing there.

It also depends on the type of number ten you sign, if you buy players like Aimar, Diego, Riquelme then they are midfielders and play deeper than number tens like Tevez who are more second strikers.

Like all positions there isn't a one size fits all solution and this position more than any is dependant on how you set up the rest of the team.

You play Gerrard on the right hand side, I don't care a tuppenny toss whether he likes it there or not. He is best suited to the role and he gives the team more from there. In reality, how much time does he actually spend 'on the right' when he plays there anyway? It gives the team better balance and if we do buy a number 10, then that number 10 has the space to operate in.

I agree StMichael, and think that now Kewell is back we will again see Gerrard on the right. It gives the team a better balance and certainly increases our attacking options.

by **ivor_the_injun** » Tue Nov 20, 2007 3:35 pm

Although I don't deny the logic, until Alonso's fully fit I don't see Gerrard anywhere other than the centre.

To be honest our options for the right are better than they were two seasons ago. Benayoun is a vastly better option for the right than Garcia ever was, and I still have a feeling that Babel may get a run out there.

Personally, I'd be happy with Kewell and Benayoun on the wings, with Gerrard and Mascherano in the centre, and I suspect that's how we'll start on Saturday.

by **LegBarnes** » Tue Nov 20, 2007 5:46 pm

bigmick wrote:Firstly apologies to Saint (and to a slightly lesser extent Bad Bob) because this is simply a rhetorical question which was asked by them on the rotation thread moved over here because it's a seperate subject.

The point which has been raised on there is that far from rotation being the culprit should we fail to challenge for the title, the real reason is that we are simply short of two or three players and not quite up to it. No amount of sticking to a settled team, finding rhythm and cohesion etc is going to alter that.

Saint has been banging on about this "creative second striker" concept for quite a while now, and he has convinced most of the forum (me included) that there is some validity in what he is saying. The other obvious positions which came up were the wide players and central defensive cover.

So what do you guys think? Completely putting aside rotation for a second (gulp!), are we good enough to win the title? I made a point on there which I stand by that Arsenal are by a country mile a better team than they were last season, I think Man Utd have improved as well, and to be perfectly honest I think so have we. Now I said we could have challenged for the title LAST season, so the question is can we and will we challenge for it this season and maybe win it, or have our immediate rivals just improved beyond our reach?

yes !

by **NJD83** » Tue Nov 20, 2007 5:50 pm

As a new member I feel I am out of my depth with all these long very insighting replys!!! Will have to work on my English I feel

by **ruskiy playmaker** » Tue Nov 20, 2007 8:04 pm

NJD83 I know how you feel, some people on here have very good English skills.

And yes I think we are good enough, but we probably need to buy a cb in January. Garay would be great addition to our squad.

I would love it if Rafa used this team. I think that it would be as good as any other top european team.

Reina
Finnan Carragher Agger Arbeloa
Mascherano Sissoko
Alonso
Gerrard Benayoun
Torres

by **bigmick** » Tue Nov 20, 2007 8:36 pm

Well we may be about to enter a crucial and historic few months if indeed we are a couple of players short. It's quite concieveable in fact likely that we will be selling a few players off, and thanks to the fact that we have a manger who is pretty shrewd in the transfer market we should be about to rake some cash in.

If for instance Sissoko, Crouch and Carson were to be sold for a combined fee of around 30 million (which given the figures bandied about ought to be about in the ball-park) and perhaps Riise for 3 or 4, then we may find ourselves in a position where we have significant cash to spash sooner rather than later. If the owners were to back Rafa with maybe another ten mill or so, then we could be properly int he hunt for the top players, and blokes such as Villa would be by no means off the radar.

If we do get those sort of funds, I hope it's not spent on "squad strengthening", or people to "give us more options", or "useful players who can play in a number of different positions" but on first team players. If once we've bought them we actually play them on a regular basis it might help a bit as well.

by **imouthep** » Tue Nov 20, 2007 9:36 pm

[ If we do get those sort of funds, I hope it's not spent on "squad strengthening", or people to "give us more options", or "useful players who can play in a number of different positions" but on first team players. If once we've bought them we actually them on a regular basis it might help a bit as well. ]

I completely agree with that point I think at this point we have enough "fringe" players and by that I mean they are not useless but more players for the future (Babel, lucas, leto, Hobbs) we got a good stock there. But at this moment we need class in the gerrard and torres moulds. One clinical striker for me would do the trick as well as a very very good winger. I am not so sure about a centre back at the mo as hobbs will def have grown in by next season (IMHO) and sami has been coming into his own oflate doing a good enough job as cover. But we must definately look to lighten the load of the likes of sissoko,riise and maybe crouch.Though I would rather see maybe kuyt on his way out as I feel he is not up to scratch(good heart and team ethic though).

Riise has been out of sorts for a while now and I think maybe it might be time to call it a day.

Villa are already throwing about the 20 mill offer for the pair (crouch and carson) though this maybe rumour and i think it should be a loy more.Sissoko should fetch a tidy sum I think juve are interested. We could definately be in the running for high class players the likes of villa and mancini spring to mind. Ben arfa another option?

So hopefully we will be busy this jan period buying top quality stuff.

by **Sabre** » Tue Nov 20, 2007 9:42 pm

I agree too that what we need now when it comes to signing ups is to fulfill specific needs with top quality players.

That doesn't mean in the past it wasn't necessary to have players that "give us more options" as Rafa likes to say (1). Arbeloa has proven to be one of those signing ups, and the good reactions he has received and the different needs he has covered have proven to be useful.

(1) I know that hasn't been what BM and imouthep said, just in case

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