Liverpool FC Forum

by **Rush Job** » Sun Nov 18, 2007 6:59 pm

Owzat wrote:And for comparison :

Kuyt - 4 goals in 20 internationals (0.200 goals/app)
Torres - 14 goals in 42 internationals (0.333 goals/app)
Voronin - 5 goals in 44 internationals (0.091 goals/app)

So does that mean Crouch is our best striker? Admittedly I think those figures might not include any games this week, but in general terms the specialist scorer against cr ap teams has the better record..........

Crouch - 13 goals in 23 internationals (0.565 goals/app)

Stats, stats, stats.No it dosnt mean he's our best striker but then it dosnt mean he's sh!t either,lets just say it means he scores goals,and to compare records with Rooney isnt really fair imho( even though PC has the better) cus Rooney has the luxuary of playin every week and being able to find form where as Crouch scores a hatrick and dosnt even make the bench for the next two.Look mate i dont want to argue,i know what i see and i know how he's valued by managers and players world wide, but not you eh.

by **maguskwt** » Mon Nov 19, 2007 3:16 pm

Owzat wrote:So most of his goals have come in friendlies, those that have come in competitive matches have been against weak opposition which comprises most

FRIENDLIES (rank in brackets)

0 vs Argentina (1)
0 vs Brazil (2)
0 vs Germany (5)
0 vs Spain (6)
2 vs Greece (14)
1 vs Uruguay (17)
0 vs Colombia (25)
1 vs Hungary (48)
1 vs Austria (88)
3 vs Jamaica (103)

COMPETITIVE (rank in brackets)

0 vs Portugal (8)
0 vs Croatia (10)
0 vs Russia/home (16)
0 vs Russia/away (16)
0 vs Poland (20)
0 vs Sweden (24)
0 vs Paraguay (26)
0 vs Macedonia/home (75)
1 vs Macedonia/away (75)
1 vs Trinidad/Tobago (78)
0 vs Austria (88)
1 vs Estonia (130)
2 vs Andorra (173)

Don't international sides automatically lose 25 ranking places if Crouch scores against them?

Average Rank Crouch has scored vs in Friendlies : 54
Average Ranks Crouch blanked vs in Friendlies : 8

Average Rank Crouch has scored vs in Competitive : 114
Average Ranks Crouch blanked vs in Competitive : 31

So the FACTS are, he has yet to score against any side in the top 10, yet to score against a side in the top 70 in competitive matches and has scored in three friendlies against sides in the top 50 - a record the very best would be proud of (not!)

And yes, Rooney's record in competitive matches is not great either. The truly great Mikey Owen has seven goals in friendlies and seven goals in competitive matches in that same period (3 vs Colombia and 2 vs Argentina in friendlies, 2 vs Russia, 1 vs Israel, 1 vs N.Ireland and 1 vs Poland in competitive matches)

thank you thank you... :bowdown

truely a sucker punch to those who keep mentioning blindly crouch's record and make him out to be world class...

to saint: surely this explain's crouch's 'record breaking run of goals for England'

by **username** » Mon Nov 19, 2007 5:13 pm

31) Even in a thead were what happens on the forum is being made fun off, a Crouch arguement still happens

by **account deleted by request** » Mon Nov 19, 2007 6:58 pm

maguskwt wrote:
Owzat wrote:So most of his goals have come in friendlies, those that have come in competitive matches have been against weak opposition which comprises most

FRIENDLIES (rank in brackets)

0 vs Argentina (1)
0 vs Brazil (2)
0 vs Germany (5)
0 vs Spain (6)
2 vs Greece (14)
1 vs Uruguay (17)
0 vs Colombia (25)
1 vs Hungary (48)
1 vs Austria (88)
3 vs Jamaica (103)

COMPETITIVE (rank in brackets)

0 vs Portugal (8)
0 vs Croatia (10)
0 vs Russia/home (16)
0 vs Russia/away (16)
0 vs Poland (20)
0 vs Sweden (24)
0 vs Paraguay (26)
0 vs Macedonia/home (75)
1 vs Macedonia/away (75)
1 vs Trinidad/Tobago (78)
0 vs Austria (88)
1 vs Estonia (130)
2 vs Andorra (173)

Don't international sides automatically lose 25 ranking places if Crouch scores against them?

Average Rank Crouch has scored vs in Friendlies : 54
Average Ranks Crouch blanked vs in Friendlies : 8

Average Rank Crouch has scored vs in Competitive : 114
Average Ranks Crouch blanked vs in Competitive : 31

So the FACTS are, he has yet to score against any side in the top 10, yet to score against a side in the top 70 in competitive matches and has scored in three friendlies against sides in the top 50 - a record the very best would be proud of (not!)

And yes, Rooney's record in competitive matches is not great either. The truly great Mikey Owen has seven goals in friendlies and seven goals in competitive matches in that same period (3 vs Colombia and 2 vs Argentina in friendlies, 2 vs Russia, 1 vs Israel, 1 vs N.Ireland and 1 vs Poland in competitive matches)

thank you thank you...

truely a sucker punch to those who keep mentioning blindly crouch's record and make him out to be world class...

to saint: surely this explain's crouch's 'record breaking run of goals for England'

All it does for me is show another thing I have learned from this site...... people try to make the stats show what THEY want them to.

I.E. Owzats stats show that Crouch has played twice against Russia this season. He has, but only coming on as a sub in the last 10 minutes of BOTH games might be seen as some excuse for him not scoring.

Same with Germany earlier this season (second half sub)
I couldnt be bothered going back beyond this season but I am sure you get the point.

Brazil...... again Crouch was a last 10mins sub.

by **kunilson** » Mon Nov 19, 2007 7:20 pm

good topic

by **Bad Bob** » Mon Nov 19, 2007 7:36 pm

s@int wrote:
maguskwt wrote:
Owzat wrote:So most of his goals have come in friendlies, those that have come in competitive matches have been against weak opposition which comprises most

FRIENDLIES (rank in brackets)

0 vs Argentina (1)
0 vs Brazil (2)
0 vs Germany (5)
0 vs Spain (6)
2 vs Greece (14)
1 vs Uruguay (17)
0 vs Colombia (25)
1 vs Hungary (48)
1 vs Austria (88)
3 vs Jamaica (103)

COMPETITIVE (rank in brackets)

0 vs Portugal (8)
0 vs Croatia (10)
0 vs Russia/home (16)
0 vs Russia/away (16)
0 vs Poland (20)
0 vs Sweden (24)
0 vs Paraguay (26)
0 vs Macedonia/home (75)
1 vs Macedonia/away (75)
1 vs Trinidad/Tobago (78)
0 vs Austria (88)
1 vs Estonia (130)
2 vs Andorra (173)

Don't international sides automatically lose 25 ranking places if Crouch scores against them?

Average Rank Crouch has scored vs in Friendlies : 54
Average Ranks Crouch blanked vs in Friendlies : 8

Average Rank Crouch has scored vs in Competitive : 114
Average Ranks Crouch blanked vs in Competitive : 31

So the FACTS are, he has yet to score against any side in the top 10, yet to score against a side in the top 70 in competitive matches and has scored in three friendlies against sides in the top 50 - a record the very best would be proud of (not!)

And yes, Rooney's record in competitive matches is not great either. The truly great Mikey Owen has seven goals in friendlies and seven goals in competitive matches in that same period (3 vs Colombia and 2 vs Argentina in friendlies, 2 vs Russia, 1 vs Israel, 1 vs N.Ireland and 1 vs Poland in competitive matches)

thank you thank you...

truely a sucker punch to those who keep mentioning blindly crouch's record and make him out to be world class...

to saint: surely this explain's crouch's 'record breaking run of goals for England'

All it does for me is show another thing I have learned from this site...... people try to make the stats show what THEY want them to.

I.E. Owzats stats show that Crouch has played twice against Russia this season. He has, but only coming on as a sub in the last 10 minutes of BOTH games might be seen as some excuse for him not scoring.

Same with Germany earlier this season (second half sub)
I couldnt be bothered going back beyond this season but I am sure you get the point.

Brazil...... again Crouch was a last 10mins sub.

Exactly my point earlier in the thread:

Bad Bob wrote:16) that stats can tell you just about anything you want them to despite the fact that they never lie

Stats are a useful tool for intepretation but they never tell the whole story. People who use the old "stats don't lie" chestnut are extracting the michael and they know it.

by **account deleted by request** » Mon Nov 19, 2007 8:04 pm

Of Crouch's 23 caps, 10 have been when he has come on as a sub and 4 when he has been taken off. In other words he has only played 9 full games for England and scored 13 goals. His record doesn't sound so bad now does it ?

Btw Defoe 26 caps 3 goals, Smith 19 caps 1 goal.

Its the way I tell em, as Frank Carson used to say

FA.COM LINK

by **maguskwt** » Tue Nov 20, 2007 3:54 am

s@int wrote:All it does for me is show another thing I have learned from this site...... people try to make the stats show what THEY want them to.

I agree with you on that saint...

I myself don't like using stats and I just like to analyse players qualitatively. That's precisely why I don't buy it at all whenever people always point out Crouch's superb england record. Of course everyone has an opinion and opinions can't be 100% objective. However, owzat's stats just reflected very accurately my sentiments on crouch. And his stats went deeper and tells a bigger story instead of just saying Crouch has scored so many goals in only so many England Caps. It is quite ironic that you now dismiss these more inclusive stats when you were arguing for crouch with a one liner exclusive stat such as 'the record breaking stat of crouch for england'.

Of Crouch's 23 caps, 10 have been when he has come on as a sub and 4 when he has been taken off. In other words he has only played 9 full games for England and scored 13 goals. His record doesn't sound so bad now does it ?

I know you're making the point of how stats are misleading here... and that is precisely why I'm against these kinda stats like i've mentioned above. Owzat's stats at least laid it all out for you to interpret... not these kind of stats...and that's the difference...

Don't get me wrong... Crouch is a very decent player... but a world beater he is not... and his england stats are more flattering than they are a proof of his quality. In basketball there are star players (called franchise palyers) and there are role players. Star players carry the team and make the most difference like allen iverson, tracy mcgrady, kobe bryant, tim duncan, kevin garnett . Role players are good at performing specific tasks, whether its rebounding, 3 point shooting or just hustling other players. They cannot be relied on to carry the team consistently. They usually does not make an impact and turn the game around when chips are down. Crouch to me is that sort of player... he's not beckham, he's not owen, he's not rooney, and he's not torres. He may be good for certain games but he's terrible for other games. In a word he's a limited player and he hasn't done enough on the biggest stage on biggest occasions to earn himself to be mentioned as a world class player...

by **account deleted by request** » Tue Nov 20, 2007 8:43 am

I don't think anyone is fooling themselves into thinking Crouch is World class, or even in the same class as Owen or Rooney when they are fit. What Crouch does do, is he troubles defences, be they ever so organised or brilliant defenders, get the right balls into the box and they wont be happy to see Crouch in there.

As for stats I like them but only as an indicator, as Badbob says "Stats are a useful tool for intepretation but they never tell the whole story".

I think Owzats stats do indicate that Crouch has some difficulty scoring against the better sides. I could hardly argue otherwise when I used similar stats to "PROVE" that Bellamy wouldn't be a great buy for us before we signed him.

However it is also difficult to argue that Crouch's England record is certainly a step up from any of his rivals i.e. Defoe, Smith, Bent, Beattie,Heskey etc. Whether this is a comment on Crouch's ability or the true strength of Englands attack(once Owen and Rooney are out of the equation) I will leave to others to decide.

For me Crouch is our second best striker at the moment, but with a considerable gap in class between him and Torres. He has broken England scoring records, which as Owzat has shown wasn't exactly against the best teams the world has to offer, but then again many other England strikers have played against equally poor opposition and failed to distinguish themselves.

by **bigmick** » Tue Nov 20, 2007 10:02 am

s@int wrote:For me Crouch is our second best striker at the moment, but with a considerable gap in class between him and Torres.

I think most people would probably agree with that Saint. They would agree that he is the second best striker that we have, but unfortunately there is an obvious chasm in quality between Crouch and the Spaniard.

What makes it even more difficult to swallow of course is that there then appears (to me anyway) to be a fairly decent gap between Crouch as our second best striker, and Kuyt/Voronin as three and four. I guess this comes back to the point on the other thread about whether we are actually good enough.

by **Ace Ventura** » Tue Nov 20, 2007 11:08 am

maguskwt, i havent looked at the stats too closley but think you are being a little harsh on Crouch like the media and pundits have been.

He hasnt had many opportunities against major nations and like for us he is often the scapegoat or fall guy.
Obviously he is not world class, he is no Rooney or Owen, but he has proved time and again that he is a top player. He was our top scorer in the champions league last season and thats against some of the best teams about.

The same people that knock Crouch saying he only scores against the poor nations are the same idiots that say there are no easy games at international level these days.
His scoring record for England is phenomenal, 13 already behind Owen and Rooney he is easily 3rd best striker and should be used more often imo.

by **club_Levis** » Tue Nov 20, 2007 11:49 am

bigmick wrote:
s@int wrote:For me Crouch is our second best striker at the moment, but with a considerable gap in class between him and Torres.

I think most people would probably agree with that Saint. They would agree that he is the second best striker that we have, but unfortunately there is an obvious chasm in quality between Crouch and the Spaniard.

This clearly answers your other thread why we cant win the title this season.

by **lakes10** » Tue Nov 20, 2007 12:34 pm

have have i learnt from this forum......i have too much time on my hands.

as this is my 3000 post i am also going to put this.

When you walk through the storm
Hold your head up high
And don't be afraid of the dark
At the end of the storm
There's a golden sky
And the sweet silver song of the lark

Walk on, through the wind
Walk on, through the rain
Though your dreams be tossed and blown
Walk on, walk on, with hope in your heart
And you'll never walk alone
You'll never walk alone

Walk on, walk on, with hope in your heart
And you'll never walk alone
You'll never walk alone

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ma3Nax8yyOE

by **burjennio** » Tue Nov 20, 2007 1:26 pm

... and healy must be the best striker in THE WORLD!!!

David Healy for BBC Sports personality of the Year?

Oh thats right, he's Northern Irish, they'll probably give it to the boy racer who didnt win the world title

by **maguskwt** » Wed Nov 21, 2007 3:36 am

lakes10 wrote:have have i learnt from this forum......i have too much time on my hands.

as this is my 3000 post i am also going to put this.

When you walk through the storm
Hold your head up high
And don't be afraid of the dark
At the end of the storm
There's a golden sky
And the sweet silver song of the lark

Walk on, through the wind
Walk on, through the rain
Though your dreams be tossed and blown
Walk on, walk on, with hope in your heart
And you'll never walk alone
You'll never walk alone

Walk on, walk on, with hope in your heart
And you'll never walk alone
You'll never walk alone

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ma3Nax8yyOE

very nice...

does anyone have a good mp3 version I can download? btw is this the original Gerry and the Pacemakers?

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