Liverpool FC Forum

by **Reg** » Mon Nov 05, 2007 9:54 pm

Bottom line, as with all passionate relationships they have their ups and downs and at times they get stretched to the limit but it doesnt help when one party doesnt seem to listen to the other, or becomes obstinate and digs his/her feet in and refuses to change despite it probably being both right and the diplomatic thing to do under the circumstances.

How many marriages have I just described ! :laugh:

by **Kharhaz** » Mon Nov 05, 2007 10:01 pm

Reg wrote:Bottom line, as with all passionate relationships they have their ups and downs and at times they get stretched to the limit but it doesnt help when one party doesnt seem to listen to the other, or becomes obstinate and digs his/her feet in and refuses to change despite it probably being both right and the diplomatic thing to do under the circumstances.

How many marriages have I just described !

Wrong, the womans always right ! Ive tried arguing against the missus when she says "YOUR DRUNK" and I insist im not then collapse....

by **account deleted by request** » Mon Nov 05, 2007 10:50 pm

Sabre wrote:The funny thing is that when Pako left, nobody gave it importance. There it is the thread to check how was the reaction.

Now, we have a bad patch largely due to the amount of injuries and the importance of them (one key injury per line) and suddenly Pako is the especial one, and Rafa's man management is poor.

Well, the contracts are there. IMHO, if Alonso, Gerrard and Mascherano were not happy with Rafa's management they would all have plenty of offers and chances to not sign up a new contract, and they could sign up for almost any European team. But the FACT is that they signed up. They signed up because they saw there was an interesting ongoing project, and that's why Torres joined aswell.

About the topic question: Needless to say, no.

I don't think you picked three very good examples Sabre. Mascherano hasn't signed yet, Gerrard admitted that the only reason he stayed was his love of Liverpool, and Alonso is rumoured to have only stayed because Barca decided they didn't want to part with Eto'o and would wait for Fabregas instead.

But as you say they did sign up, maybe, just maybe the huge wages they are on helped though.

by **The Manhattan Project** » Mon Nov 05, 2007 10:56 pm

The ONLY dude I would accept as LFC manager other than Rafa is Jose.

Anyone else? No thanks.

by **Sabre** » Mon Nov 05, 2007 11:08 pm

Bad Bob wrote:So, if I read Mick's original post correctly the two questions at the heart of it are:

1) Is Rafa getting the best out of our players at the moment?
2) If not, could another manager get enough out of them to win us the title?

My answer to the first question is no--at least not at the moment. Whether that's down to Rafa, down to the players or a little of both I leave for another debate (hint: I'll go with option 3).

My answer to the second question is an honest "dunno". Maybe someone like Mourinho (who I'd hate to see here, BTW) or Hiddink or Scolari could walk in and motivate the lads into winning it, much like Rafa did in the Champions League in his first season. Perhaps, though, they'd walk in, give it a go and come up short before deciding that there are too many players that aren't good enough. They'd likely be backed in the transfer market but they'd need time to assemble the squad they wanted...sound familiar?

So, I guess my implied question would be whether the squad is good enough for any manager to win the title with?

If the answer to question 2) is yes, then I'd sack Rafa myself if I could. But I truly think that no-one of the managers that I've known in the Liga o are currently in the Liga, nor Mourinho would make a better job. If I did think so, then I'd be pro-sack Rafa.

I don't think Rafa only deserves more time because what he has achieved, I think that he's the best man for the job, and that includes his methods. And it hasn't to do anything with his nationality. In fact, until 2001, I was the type of Spanish fan that thought that foreign coaches (Toshack, Denoueix, Hiddink,Cruyff,Trapattoni,Lippi) were the good ones and Spanish were shíte. It's this new school of Spanish coachs the one that has convinced me with their approach to football.

Now, I'm just a supporter, a fan. Since we're thousands of Liverpool fans everyone has entitled to have an opinion. And I find very respectable to doubt rotation, doubt the signing ups, doubt the manager. It hasn't anything to do with loyalty (that must be shown in the stadium not the internet), it's about giving opinions of what you think it's best for the club.

I respect deeply every other opinion. Quite honestly, if someone doubts the methods, doubts whether Pako had more weight in our success, doubts the signing ups, and doubts the ability to come back from a tight spot, then he should want the manager sacked and bring another one ASAP. Because even if the other manager needs to start from scratch, the wrong methods won't give you success so the only option is to sack him.

Given the amount and kind of doubts on the manager, I must say I'm astonished only the 20% of this popular poll has voted to sack Rafa.

About question one, it's obvious we're not at the best moment. But I'm surprised to see some reactions, it seems that people here is not old enough to have seen very good teams having a struggling month. Obviously Rafa has made some mistakes, he's human, it's obvious he has to improve, but I have total trust in his ability to help this club. If I had the slightest doubt about that, then I'd want him sacked in order he gets the Spanish national squad, and post the name of the manager that could make that job.

by **The Manhattan Project** » Mon Nov 05, 2007 11:12 pm

According to Manhattan's sources, Rinus Michels will be Liverpool's new manager.

by **Sabre** » Mon Nov 05, 2007 11:13 pm

s@int wrote:
Sabre wrote:The funny thing is that when Pako left, nobody gave it importance. There it is the thread to check how was the reaction.

Now, we have a bad patch largely due to the amount of injuries and the importance of them (one key injury per line) and suddenly Pako is the especial one, and Rafa's man management is poor.

Well, the contracts are there. IMHO, if Alonso, Gerrard and Mascherano were not happy with Rafa's management they would all have plenty of offers and chances to not sign up a new contract, and they could sign up for almost any European team. But the FACT is that they signed up. They signed up because they saw there was an interesting ongoing project, and that's why Torres joined aswell.

About the topic question: Needless to say, no.

I don't think you picked three very good examples Sabre. Mascherano hasn't signed yet, Gerrard admitted that the only reason he stayed was his love of Liverpool, and Alonso is rumoured to have only stayed because Barca decided they didn't want to part with Eto'o and would wait for Fabregas instead.

But as you say they did sign up, maybe, just maybe the huge wages they are on helped though.

But Henry and Drogba also had big wages, so has Cesc, and all of them are wanting to leave their clubs. The contracts are the real thing, the quotes in the press do not count. If one rumour says that Alonso goes to Barcelona, and the next day you have a contract of 5 years, then you can laugh the rumour, if you see what I mean.

The truth is, that Henry went to Barcelona when they wanted him, and Alonso didn't.

The truth is, that Gerrard who always loved Liverpool, was in the verge of leaving the club some years ago, and yesteryear he renewed his contract.

The truth is, that Owen and McManaman, who also loved the club, were leaving the club in the past. And the truth is that nowadays our important players stays.

One thing is what Balague, the journos, Sabre or Saint says, and another the facts: who goes and who stays. And in our club we hadn't have cases of knee jerking or wanting to go to Madrid or Barcelona as of late. And that facts have been under Rafa, we like it or not.

by **NANNY RED** » Mon Nov 05, 2007 11:18 pm

The Manhattan Project wrote:According to Manhattan's sources, Rinus Michels will be Liverpool's new manager.

Well he will be managing from the grave hes dead

by **bigmick** » Mon Nov 05, 2007 11:28 pm

Well it's a debate that will run and run as long as the manager continues to do the job in a fashion which is different to everybody else, and so long as the team underperforms. As far as reasons for our loss of form go, the injuries have arrived just in time to cloud the issue as far as I'm concerned. I mean we CHOSE not to play Torres in two out of the seven or eight League games he was fit for before his injury, so the fact he's missed a couple of games since would only seem to me to be a continuation of that trend. Similarly, Agger was left out a couple fo times, ditto Alonso.

I'm not pretending that losing players of their calibre would effect any team, of course it would. That's kind of the reason why some of us don't advocate leaving them sitting on their erse unless you really have to. The injuries are not an alternative reason for our loss of form, they are merely a graphic demonstration of the total folly of our approach prior to them.

I've said on another thread that in my opinion we are out of the Premiership and many don't agree which is good, I hope they are right. Should we lose at Home to Man Utd (who we are currently six points behind but with a game in hand on I think) I suspect most would probably concur at that point. Even failing to win that particular game (this is assuming of course we go on a sustained winning run for the next six weeks or so) would leave us with a mountain to climb given we would be still three points behind Man Utd (assuming of course we win our game in hand), with away trips to the other three of the big four to come in the second half of the season. Unless we can really catch fire in the second half of the campaign, the questions and the list of alternative candidates will grow week by week.

by **account deleted by request** » Mon Nov 05, 2007 11:31 pm

Sabre wrote:
s@int wrote:
Sabre wrote:The funny thing is that when Pako left, nobody gave it importance. There it is the thread to check how was the reaction.

Now, we have a bad patch largely due to the amount of injuries and the importance of them (one key injury per line) and suddenly Pako is the especial one, and Rafa's man management is poor.

Well, the contracts are there. IMHO, if Alonso, Gerrard and Mascherano were not happy with Rafa's management they would all have plenty of offers and chances to not sign up a new contract, and they could sign up for almost any European team. But the FACT is that they signed up. They signed up because they saw there was an interesting ongoing project, and that's why Torres joined aswell.

About the topic question: Needless to say, no.

I don't think you picked three very good examples Sabre. Mascherano hasn't signed yet, Gerrard admitted that the only reason he stayed was his love of Liverpool, and Alonso is rumoured to have only stayed because Barca decided they didn't want to part with Eto'o and would wait for Fabregas instead.

But as you say they did sign up, maybe, just maybe the huge wages they are on helped though.

But Henry and Drogba also had big wages, so has Cesc, and all of them are wanting to leave their clubs. The contracts are the real thing, the quotes in the press do not count. If one rumour says that Alonso goes to Barcelona, and the next day you have a contract of 5 years, then you can laugh the rumour, if you see what I mean.

The truth is, that Henry went to Barcelona when they wanted him, and Alonso didn't.

The truth is, that Gerrard who always loved Liverpool, was in the verge of leaving the club some years ago, and yesteryear he renewed his contract.

The truth is, that Owen and McManaman, who also loved the club, were leaving the club in the past. And the truth is that nowadays our important players stays.

One thing is what Balague, the journos, Sabre or Saint says, and another the facts: who goes and who stays. And in our club we hadn't have cases of knee jerking or wanting to go to Madrid or Barcelona as of late. And that facts have been under Rafa, we like it or not.

John Barnes wanted to leave Liverpool virtually every season to play abroad, yet continued to sign contract extensions for Liverpool. Sometimes the times not right, sometimes the offers not right, and sometimes the team making the offers not right. Sometimes the interested team decides to go another way.

To say because a player signs a contract he his happy, is very simplistic and simply wrong. Try offering Alonso , £20,000 per week less and see how long he sticks around.

Ie Macmanaman agreed a contract with Liverpool to stay. When Liverpool withdrew the offer and offered less.... he left.

If Alonso was so happy why did we have so much trouble getting him to sign? and why did he only agree to sign AFTER Barca decided to keep Eto'o and go a different way? Coincidence or change of plans?

Just like it would be naive to say that just because we have lost our assistant manager, 2 top coaches, our goalkeeping coach and our youth team coach that its because they were unhappy and didn't think we would win anything.

by **red--sangria** » Mon Nov 05, 2007 11:42 pm

a moaning git who is never happy?
if you support lfc,you are suppose to support your team no matter what.
kuyt is not playing well at the moment but he'll turn it around,he probably needs a goal that's all,if you are a moaning git like most on this board lately do you think the constant witch hunt towards certain players is suddenly going to make them play better or that rafa reads these boards before he picks his team.i believe everyone has a right to an opinion but does that always mean you have to moan.

SUPPORT LFC THROUGH GOOD AND BAD

by **Sabre** » Mon Nov 05, 2007 11:49 pm

S@int I snip the embedded quotes, to not make the post too long:

Trouble? I don't call exactly trouble to renew a contract when there's still 2 years of remaining contract, so based on the fact that "trouble" is a wrong word to describe how the process was, the Barcelona point is irrelevant. I don't think signing a contract 2 or 3 weeks after other players is trouble, and I don't think Barcelona had anything to do with it. All the "trouble" was in the press, not anywhere else.

The point you make about John Barnes is fair enough, and so is all that paragraph. I also admit that it doesn't mean directly that the player is happy, but at the same time, I haven't seen a single case of a player being unsettled and with doubts, and extending the contract FIVE years.

Admitting the point that contracts do not show happyness always, I still think it's not a bad sign whatsoever when you manage to keep your key players at the club. Now if that's because the time is not right or just "luck" (like everytime that Rafa gets right something) then that's debatable.

by **account deleted by request** » Tue Nov 06, 2007 12:06 am

I think we will have to disagree on the importance new contracts indicate on the happiness of players.

Cisse wasn't very happy with Rafa or not playing but didn't want to leave as he had built a new life over here. I pretty sure Crouch isn't thrilled at the moment but want's to stay till the summer so he can negotiate a better deal. Garcia ?

You may not agree but the FACT that we are one of the three top wage payers in the prem (which in itself is one of the top wage payers in the world) can't hurt either mate.

Maybe I am a bit more cynical Sabre, maybe thats why I would have been happy for Owen to come back. A lot of my illusions and delusions have been shattered over the years.

by **neil** » Tue Nov 06, 2007 12:08 am

with the players we currently have even I could pick a first team, stick to it, rest players when they get lazy,to-wit dropped and have a better chance of success. We just need someone to allow the players to appear important rather than the managers sheer genius.

by **account deleted by request** » Tue Nov 06, 2007 12:14 am

neil wrote:with the players we currently have even I could pick a first team, stick to it, rest players when they get lazy,to-wit dropped and have a better chance of success. We just need someone to allow the players to appear important rather than the managers sheer genius.

If you are willing to drop Kuyt and play Crouch, you have got the job mate

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