Liverpool FC Forum

by **redtrader74** » Mon Nov 05, 2007 12:04 pm

s@int wrote:
redtrader74 wrote:IMO the way Mourinho manages works in the short term, after a while his bollox must get tiresome, and the fact that there has been very little concern on his departure from his players, other than Drogba, shows what regard the insecure little man was held in. If he did not have such an acrimonious relationship with Liverpool then maybe in the short-term he could have a positive effect on our results, but then most good managers do when they take over a Club, but i cannot see his methods working on the players who have seen him at work from the other side of the fence. I mean can you really see Carra falling for his tripe?

In the longer term i think he would be a disaster for the Club, the quiet way we go about our business, the esteem that we are held in World wide established by our History would be destroyed by the mucky hands of the Arthur Daly of football.

BTW the 'story' of Mourinho taking over from Rafa are totally fabricated imo, the press want to pressurise Rafa now that Jol has departed, but cannot think of another high profile manager.

Do you think Rafa has many friends at Liverpool Redtrader? I don't ,I think a lot of players might regret Rafa going because of his ability but I don't think there would be many tears shed over Rafa the man.

Its only an impression and I may be totally wrong, but I think Rafa's man management skills are poor and I think this is his one real weakness.

I understand what you mean Saint, but i think this man management thing that gets thrown around has a lot to do with SG's book, who imho is insecure, i got this from his book, from the way he regards and plays for England, and by the fiasco after Istanbul. I get the impression players like Carra, Alonso, Reina, Finnan really do buy into Rafa, and don't need a cuddle.

There isn't a perfect manager, but i think like Leon points out he's more the kind you would miss once he left. The players would realise what a paranoid child Mourinho is when they compare him to Rafa, and then we would have a problem.

by **redtrader74** » Mon Nov 05, 2007 12:08 pm

Bamaga man wrote:
Its only an impression and I may be totally wrong, but I think Rafa's man management skills are poor and I think this is his one real weakness.

A few of us have been saying this for a while Saint, you included me old China. But we got literally laughed at for making such suggestions.

What we see and what goes on behind the scenes could be different? Could he be such a bad man manager and then do so well in management? and get players to perform to such levels that wins trophies?

by **account deleted by request** » Mon Nov 05, 2007 12:17 pm

redtrader74 wrote:
s@int wrote:
redtrader74 wrote:IMO the way Mourinho manages works in the short term, after a while his bollox must get tiresome, and the fact that there has been very little concern on his departure from his players, other than Drogba, shows what regard the insecure little man was held in. If he did not have such an acrimonious relationship with Liverpool then maybe in the short-term he could have a positive effect on our results, but then most good managers do when they take over a Club, but i cannot see his methods working on the players who have seen him at work from the other side of the fence. I mean can you really see Carra falling for his tripe?

In the longer term i think he would be a disaster for the Club, the quiet way we go about our business, the esteem that we are held in World wide established by our History would be destroyed by the mucky hands of the Arthur Daly of football.

BTW the 'story' of Mourinho taking over from Rafa are totally fabricated imo, the press want to pressurise Rafa now that Jol has departed, but cannot think of another high profile manager.

Do you think Rafa has many friends at Liverpool Redtrader? I don't ,I think a lot of players might regret Rafa going because of his ability but I don't think there would be many tears shed over Rafa the man.

Its only an impression and I may be totally wrong, but I think Rafa's man management skills are poor and I think this is his one real weakness.

I understand what you mean Saint, but i think this man management thing that gets thrown around has a lot to do with SG's book, who imho is insecure, i got this from his book, from the way he regards and plays for England, and by the fiasco after Istanbul. I get the impression players like Carra, Alonso, Reina, Finnan really do buy into Rafa, and don't need a cuddle.

There isn't a perfect manager, but i think like Leon points out he's more the kind you would miss once he left. The players would realise what a paranoid child Mourinho is when they compare him to Rafa, and then we would have a problem.

I don't know mate , I have had the suspicion that Rafa's man management skills arn't what they should be for a while. I mentioned it in a thread shortly after the FA cup final , but my point was lost amid a stream of abuse

Even Carra has said that they have no personal relationship with him, that they don't really know him and he treats them like pawns on a chess board.

I agree that Mourinho's motivation may not last very long, but it worked for Shankly and Clough. Whether we could "take" to the snide comments etc that Mourinho gives out I'm not sure, but in all likelyhood we would become used to it and actually begin to enjoy it.

by **66-1112520797** » Mon Nov 05, 2007 12:31 pm

redtrader74 wrote:
Bamaga man wrote:
Its only an impression and I may be totally wrong, but I think Rafa's man management skills are poor and I think this is his one real weakness.

A few of us have been saying this for a while Saint, you included me old China. But we got literally laughed at for making such suggestions.

What we see and what goes on behind the scenes could be different? Could he be such a bad man manager and then do so well in management? and get players to perform to such levels that wins trophies?

you or I dont know what he's like fair enough, i'm just going on what I see and think and could be wide of the mark. But I didnt get thid idea from a "book"

Incidently he hasnt got us to perform recently in bread and butter games. So somthing is definately going wrong with his management somewhere. At the start of every season, we're out of the race, and domestically our results against the other big three arre appalling. We havent even scored a goal ar Stamford bridge under him.

Crouch doesnt get picked when he should, the one naff player who hardly gets rotated is Kuyt. But constantly finds himself firing blanks and playing poor, all because Rafa cant swallow his pride for whatever reasons and in doing so hinders our title chances game by game everytime Kuyts picked.

His management isnt all rosey ya know..

by **Bammo** » Mon Nov 05, 2007 12:43 pm

I honestly think the only thing that Mourinho could give the team more than Rafa is belief. Jose's won it before so there's theadded expectation that can help players raise their confidence. There's no way I'd want Jose in charge though. (Here comes the slating) Most of the players he bought were overpriced failures. The crux of his winning teams was based around inherited players.

Imagine how we'd play with Jose as manager :Oo:

A midfield of Masch, Sissoko, Akonso and Lucas sat right in front of the back four, Stevie shooting from everywhere and Torres on his own up front. It may work but it makes Rafa's sides look like Holland '74.

As for man-management, would Jose be any better? There were clearly rifts between him and players he didn't want (Shevchenko, Ballack etc). Is that any better than the rumoured Rafa/Crouch problem?

Onto Rafa's team selection. Despite me liking him, I think it's time Kuyt was either dropped or played pushed up with another striker (Crouch). I (and most people on here) have noticed Kuyt's confidence is so low he now avoids getting into positions. Consequently, playing him up on his own is pointless. Interesting thought though, when Rafa kept faith with Crouch for 20+ games he was ultimately praised for his faith. Now he sticks with Kuyt he's slated. We all want Rafa to have team stability yet when he does and we don't win, we criticise him

by **stmichael** » Mon Nov 05, 2007 1:42 pm

It will be a sad day for this club if we sack Benítez and hire Mourinho.

by **kazza** » Mon Nov 05, 2007 2:01 pm

While we are at it we might as well ask whether we would win the league with Fergie. Players should not need an arm around the shoulder to motivate them, their paycheck should be all the motivation they need.

by **Reg** » Mon Nov 05, 2007 3:59 pm

I see where you´re coming from BigMick.

The writing is on the wall, we got off to a cracking start, lost momentum during the Euro qualifiers and haven´t recovered since.
In short ManUre and the Harse are playing great footie and Chelsea are getting over the shock of Maureen leaving.
We´re staring at 4th place and 15 points behind the champion if we´re not careful.

Would this be the scenario if Maureen was in charge???

Zat is zee question and I am not so sure the answer is yes........

by **redtrader74** » Mon Nov 05, 2007 4:56 pm

Bamaga man wrote:
redtrader74 wrote:
Bamaga man wrote:
Its only an impression and I may be totally wrong, but I think Rafa's man management skills are poor and I think this is his one real weakness.

A few of us have been saying this for a while Saint, you included me old China. But we got literally laughed at for making such suggestions.

What we see and what goes on behind the scenes could be different? Could he be such a bad man manager and then do so well in management? and get players to perform to such levels that wins trophies?

you or I dont know what he's like fair enough, i'm just going on what I see and think and could be wide of the mark. But I didnt get thid idea from a "book"

Incidently he hasnt got us to perform recently in bread and butter games. So somthing is definately going wrong with his management somewhere. At the start of every season, we're out of the race, and domestically our results against the other big three arre appalling. We havent even scored a goal ar Stamford bridge under him.

Crouch doesnt get picked when he should, the one naff player who hardly gets rotated is Kuyt. But constantly finds himself firing blanks and playing poor, all because Rafa cant swallow his pride for whatever reasons and in doing so hinders our title chances game by game everytime Kuyts picked.

His management isnt all rosey ya know..

Fair enough you can go off on a tangent, but i thought we were talking about his lack of man management, i am pointing out that it cannot be all that bad, as he is a successful manager, one of the most successful in th recent past. Therefore is it more likely that he has decent man management skills, or that he does not?

I have not said that Rafas managemant is perfect, infact i have said the opposite, but i am not willing to judge his ability SOLELY on a few poor games of this season.

by **Lando_Griffin** » Mon Nov 05, 2007 5:11 pm

I'd sooner eat my own intestines.

by **Ola Mr Benitez** » Mon Nov 05, 2007 5:12 pm

redtrader74 wrote:
Bamaga man wrote:
redtrader74 wrote:
Bamaga man wrote:
Its only an impression and I may be totally wrong, but I think Rafa's man management skills are poor and I think this is his one real weakness.

A few of us have been saying this for a while Saint, you included me old China. But we got literally laughed at for making such suggestions.

What we see and what goes on behind the scenes could be different? Could he be such a bad man manager and then do so well in management? and get players to perform to such levels that wins trophies?

you or I dont know what he's like fair enough, i'm just going on what I see and think and could be wide of the mark. But I didnt get thid idea from a "book"

Incidently he hasnt got us to perform recently in bread and butter games. So somthing is definately going wrong with his management somewhere. At the start of every season, we're out of the race, and domestically our results against the other big three arre appalling. We havent even scored a goal ar Stamford bridge under him.

Crouch doesnt get picked when he should, the one naff player who hardly gets rotated is Kuyt. But constantly finds himself firing blanks and playing poor, all because Rafa cant swallow his pride for whatever reasons and in doing so hinders our title chances game by game everytime Kuyts picked.

His management isnt all rosey ya know..

Fair enough you can go off on a tangent, but i thought we were talking about his lack of man management, i am pointing out that it cannot be all that bad, as he is a successful manager, one of the most successful in th recent past. Therefore is it more likely that he has decent man management skills, or that he does not?

I have not said that Rafas managemant is perfect, infact i have said the opposite, but i am not willing to judge his ability SOLELY on a few poor games of this season.

I thnk it has been said inthe past thet the management team of Rafa and Pako was probably one of the best.

Rafa working out how to play teams and Pako doing the man managment on a daily basis.

So your augument of he must be a good man manager could be de-railed if it was Pako that was telling the lads how good they where and putting the hyperthetical arm around the shoulder.

The problem is we don't really know what goes on behind closed doors, for all we know Rafa may make them cups of tea and massage their tired tootsies!

by **Ola Mr Benitez** » Mon Nov 05, 2007 5:13 pm

Oh.. and Maureen at Anfield... I don't think so!

by **redtrader74** » Mon Nov 05, 2007 5:17 pm

Ola Mr Benitez wrote:
redtrader74 wrote:
Bamaga man wrote:
redtrader74 wrote:
Bamaga man wrote:
Its only an impression and I may be totally wrong, but I think Rafa's man management skills are poor and I think this is his one real weakness.

A few of us have been saying this for a while Saint, you included me old China. But we got literally laughed at for making such suggestions.

What we see and what goes on behind the scenes could be different? Could he be such a bad man manager and then do so well in management? and get players to perform to such levels that wins trophies?

you or I dont know what he's like fair enough, i'm just going on what I see and think and could be wide of the mark. But I didnt get thid idea from a "book"

Incidently he hasnt got us to perform recently in bread and butter games. So somthing is definately going wrong with his management somewhere. At the start of every season, we're out of the race, and domestically our results against the other big three arre appalling. We havent even scored a goal ar Stamford bridge under him.

Crouch doesnt get picked when he should, the one naff player who hardly gets rotated is Kuyt. But constantly finds himself firing blanks and playing poor, all because Rafa cant swallow his pride for whatever reasons and in doing so hinders our title chances game by game everytime Kuyts picked.

His management isnt all rosey ya know..

Fair enough you can go off on a tangent, but i thought we were talking about his lack of man management, i am pointing out that it cannot be all that bad, as he is a successful manager, one of the most successful in th recent past. Therefore is it more likely that he has decent man management skills, or that he does not?

I have not said that Rafas managemant is perfect, infact i have said the opposite, but i am not willing to judge his ability SOLELY on a few poor games of this season.

I thnk it has been said inthe past thet the management team of Rafa and Pako was probably one of the best.

Rafa working out how to play teams and Pako doing the man managment on a daily basis.

So your augument of he must be a good man manager could be de-railed if it was Pako that was telling the lads how good they where and putting the hyperthetical arm around the shoulder.

The problem is we don't really know what goes on behind closed doors, for all we know Rafa may make them cups of tea and massage their tired tootsies!

Day by day Pako is becoming the 'special one', at this rate this time next week he'll be the coach of Real Madrid, i've been told he was responsible for tactics, coaching, fitness, and now man management. If only G&H had kept him on an as manager and got rid of Rafa.

by **Bammo** » Mon Nov 05, 2007 5:35 pm

Didn't you all realise?

As well as being master tactician, Pako drove the bus, washed the kit, mowed the pitch, cooked the food, cut the hair and read all the players bed-time stories. He'd even do funny voices for each of the characters to make Jermaine and Daniel laugh....

No one knows for sure whether Pako leaving had an effect.

Maybe Pako was a huge part of the setup.

Maybe he was the link between players and a distant Rafa.

Maybe all he was was someone Rafa had to convince (and therefore justify his choices to himself)

Maybe Rafa's simply missing his friend.

or maybe, just maybe, this is a coincidence that Pako left, players got injured, players went off form, the international break stopped our momentum or any other factor is why we're playing badly.

Every season we have a bad patch. Every team does. If our bad patch only means we're 6 points off the top then I'll happily take that.

by **Ade** » Mon Nov 05, 2007 5:55 pm

Mick, I know where you're coming from. I think the spectre of Jose being out of a job and ready to turn up at a new club next season may even be exerting some pressure on Rafa right now.

I like Mourinho. I know we had spats with him but we're kidding ourselves if this club has always sailed by like saints while all others are scraping along in the gutter. In the past we've been ruthless, nasty and arrogant on the pitch - it's what sets winners apart from the rest. We've had 17 years without the title, and a lot of our supporters have reached instead for the 'well, at least we conduct ourselves with dignity' blanket. Yes we do, but I think too often it's just that, a consolation prize.

Mourinho is a winner, and while i take Leon's point about Rafa building good foundations for the future - he is, no doubt – I'm not convinced he's flexible enough tactically in the Prem, and not convinced the players are really on his wavelength. Mourinho gets the best out of his players, i'm not sure we can say the same about Rafa at the moment. Funnily enough, he seems to have got more out of lesser players - the CL in 2005 might always be his high point with us.

Rafa is better tactically, in Europe at least, but I'm not so sure in the league. FFS, we're struggling to beat teams like Birmingham and Spurs at home, and it took him 70mins to suss out on Saturday that Blackburn were there for the taking. Mourinho might have been a grinder, but he was never beaten at home in charge of Chelsea, and he competed on four fronts, winning two league title in three years. That can't be argued with.

Rafa has bought well, mostly, but he's also bought a few duds. Fair enough, he gets rid of them sharpish - unlike Houllier. Jose was lucky that he inherited players of the calibre of Cech, Terry and Lampard, though he saw the potential of Drogba and Essien to make it in the Prem, and was smart with Carvalho. Not his fault that with Abramovich taking over, Mourinho was forced to pay ludicrous money for those signings. They were still brilliant signings.

Short answer is that they're fairly evenly matched. I like Rafa and hope in time he gets it right. He's a decent man. But i feel that it has to be this season or next. He demanded the cash to take us that extra yard, and he got it. Now he has to show he's capable of making the most out of it.

I just feel that if we're way off the pace at the end of this season, not even close to the top, there might be a clamour for Mourinho. He's doing the gardening until next summer, but he won't wait another year. I'm not sure we can afford to either.

So make it this year Rafa. all right?

PS: Where are you in NZ, Mick?

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