Liverpool FC Forum

by **Owzat** » Sun Nov 04, 2007 1:48 pm

That you are drawing positives on Crouch by comparing him with Kuyt shows a level of desperation. A man with a penny is better off than a man with none at all. Crouch did quite well yesterday, but perhaps that is a microcosm of Crouch - he does well, but to what end? His goalscoring record is very ordinary and here's the split of results when he scores and doesn't

Crouch Scores - P25 W24 D1 L0 F69 A15
Crouch Blanks - P83 W38 D21 L24 F103 A72

Ok he won't have started all games he doesn't score in, he doesn't score many as a 'supersub', then again he might equally come on when Liverpool are winning as drawing or losing. But the fact is the team doesn't fare greatly when he doesn't score which is three times as often as when he does. If he did 'bring something' to the team where's the proof? In the games in which he plays some part but doesn't score we draw and lose over 1/2. Someone has to score the goals and when he scores it is 32 out of 69 while the team scores 109 goals when he plays but doesn't score

Team Scoring

When Crouch Scores - 69 goals in 25 games (2.76 goals/game)
Of which 32 were scored by Crouch at 1.28 goals/game and 37 were scored by others at 1.48 goals/game

When Crouch Blanks - 103 goals in 83 games (1.24 goals/game)
Of course all the goals were scored by others at 1.24 goals/game, since Crouch has played at least 60 mins in 68 of his 108 appearances (63%, average 79 mins an appearance) you have to ask if he is actually doing anything that leads to something when he doesn't score

So if he's not scoring and the team is scoring less goals per game (regardless of result), then he can't be bringing any great value to the team by way of all the attributes people suggest he offers. You might suggest it is because he doesn't score against the stronger sides, well this is true to some extent, but only 21 games Crouch has played have been against the current top three and the split is as below

Crouch games vs Chelsea, Man Utd or Arsenal

Crouch Scores - P3 W3 D0 L0
Crouch Blanks - P18 W3 D3 L12

He played against those teams and didn't score in 18 games of which Liverpool lost 12, take those out of the games he played and didn't score :

Crouch Blanks (minus C,M&A) - P62 W35 D18 L12

Somewhat better but we've still lost 1/5 and why should we exclude games against selected teams? It's still not as great as it should be, won 56.45% compared to Rafa's overall won 57.1% in all competitions including ALL teams. Ironically he's played Chelsea eleven times and Liverpool have a record of P11 W4 D3 L4, although he scored only once (Community Shield) Is that record because of him or in spite of him?

by **ivor_the_injun** » Sun Nov 04, 2007 1:55 pm

I can't be arsed reading the stats, one thing I know for sure is that I'd have Crouch in the starting line up against both Besiktas and Fulham without a second thought. I don't think Rafa reads the stats when picking his team, and even if he did he'd have to concede that Voronin and Kuyt aren't going to get us out of our current slump.

I don't care what's gone on behind the scenes, but if he's willing to have him on the subs bench, he's willing to have him on the pitch, and now we need wins he needs to have him on from the start.

by **puroresu** » Sun Nov 04, 2007 1:57 pm

crouch is not the saviour. Granted Kuyt is rubbish but its the way we play which is the real problem.

by **ivor_the_injun** » Sun Nov 04, 2007 2:03 pm

I prefer the way we play with Crouch up front though. He always stays pretty central on the ball, which in itself seems to give us more of a goal threat, and he's clever enough on the ball to bring in the midfielders.

Even if the stats don't back it up, the football I've seen with my own eyes tells me that Gerrard works better coming in off Crouch touches more than he does coming in off Kuyt's runs with the ball off towards the corner flags.

by **Ace Ventura** » Sun Nov 04, 2007 2:32 pm

ivor_the_injun wrote:I prefer the way we play with Crouch up front though. He always stays pretty central on the ball, which in itself seems to give us more of a goal threat, and he's clever enough on the ball to bring in the midfielders.

Even if the stats don't back it up, the football I've seen with my own eyes tells me that Gerrard works better coming in off Crouch touches more than he does coming in off Kuyt's runs with the ball off towards the corner flags.

Ivor your speaking sense mate. As a team we are far more potent with him in the side.
Sure he can be frustrating at times, yes his heading isnt the best for his height but he is a very good footballer.
He allows the midfield to get forward and links with them far better than any of our other strikers, that helps our best player. For that reason alone he should be in the side.
Anyone who says he is not good enough fair enough...but ask yourselves is he better than the other strikers we have ? If the answer is yes..then play him. Simple really.

by **ivor_the_injun** » Sun Nov 04, 2007 2:43 pm

I pretty much discount heading ability when it comes to Crouch. He can take the ball on the chest where other players would need to head it anyway, and his ability from that point of view is superb. I've seen him take balls on the chest that would have knocked some players over.

On the deck, he's still among the best we have at the club, and that's what we're lacking in the final third right now. We're finding our passing game a bit in midfield now, Gerrard's starting to maraud a bit more, and I think bringing Crouch in to take those movements into the box is the next logical step, particularly with home games coming up.

by **Red8** » Sun Nov 04, 2007 2:43 pm

Ace Ventura wrote:
ivor_the_injun wrote:I prefer the way we play with Crouch up front though. He always stays pretty central on the ball, which in itself seems to give us more of a goal threat, and he's clever enough on the ball to bring in the midfielders.

Even if the stats don't back it up, the football I've seen with my own eyes tells me that Gerrard works better coming in off Crouch touches more than he does coming in off Kuyt's runs with the ball off towards the corner flags.

Ivor your speaking sense mate. As a team we are far more potent with him in the side.
Sure he can be frustrating at times, yes his heading isnt the best for his height but he is a very good footballer.
He allows the midfield to get forward and links with them far better than any of our other strikers, that helps our best player. For that reason alone he should be in the side.
Anyone who says he is not good enough fair enough...but ask yourselves is he better than the other strikers we have ? If the answer is yes..then play him. Simple really.

Pity Crouch really. He is getting a raw deal from Rafa. It must be terrible watching players like Kuyt and Voronin from the bench. Even with Torres injured, the man can't get a start in league matches. What a waste.

by **ivor_the_injun** » Sun Nov 04, 2007 2:46 pm

I think the time's come now. Sometimes a manager perseveres with a player, on a hunch that the next game will be the one where they'll explode into form. With Besiktas coming up on Tuesday, I don't think Rafa's soft enough to think that a crucial Champions League game is going to bring the best out of him.

Put him up alongside Crouch by all means, but to play Kuyt at Crouch's expense would be incredibly, incredibly naive.

by **stmichael** » Sun Nov 04, 2007 4:50 pm

If I was Crouch I'd be banging the managers door down tomorrow morning demanding to know why he still can't get a start, even though our only other out and out striker is currently injured. Kuyt and Voronin are never out and out strikers in a million years and neither can ever be used as a lone striker. Yesterday we were effectively playing 4-6-0 at times.

by **account deleted by request** » Sun Nov 04, 2007 11:01 pm

Crouch told he will only get bit-part at Liverpool
Blackburn 0-0 Liverpool

by IAN LADYMAN

Last updated at 20:38pm on 4th November 2007

Peter Crouch's future at Liverpool looks bleak after manager Rafael Benitez hinted that the striker may be more effective as a substitute.

Crouch has started only one Premier League game this season and was given just 19 minutes as a replacement to try to influence another disappointing Liverpool afternoon.

The England forward's presence coincided with his team's best spell of the game as Liverpool came close to scoring on a handful of occasions in the closing stages.

But Benitez refused to accept that Crouch had made the difference and reflected the 26-year-old may have to become used to life as a substitute.

"Maybe that's right," said Benitez, when the point was put to him. "Some players are like that.

"Some players, when they play for 20 minutes, are more important for the team that way.

"We did better towards the end but perhaps there were three reasons.

"Harry Kewell was on, Blackburn were getting tired and then there was Crouch, too. So there were three things together."

Benitez's assessment, which can't be faulted for honesty, will disappoint Crouch and the 8,000 Liverpool fans who called for his introduction long before he was told to take his tracksuit off.

His impact was profound, freeing Steven Gerrard from his role as second striker to Dirk Kuyt and giving Liverpool proper shape.

Crouch himself had a header cleared off the line, Gerrard went close with two left-foot shots, while the willing but out-of-sorts Kuyt fluffed two opportunities.

Blackburn, who had more than matched Liverpool until the last 20 minutes, had reason to feel relieved at the end.

Left back Stephen Warnock, once of Liverpool, said: "They brought on quality players in Kewell and Crouch and they changed the game.

"It made it more difficult for us. They went more direct with Crouch and it seemed to suit them.

"Crouchie is a great player. He's one of those that almost any team would love to have in their starting line-up. But they seem to use him in a different way and the manager there seems to think that works for him.

"But he's a real asset when he comes on and it must be frustrating for him when he's not starting."

Liverpool watchers will point out Crouch has been poor when given starts this season — in the Premier League and in Europe — and that is a view Benitez shares.

But in the absence of the injured Fernando Torres, it seems baffling he has not been given another chance.

by **JohnBull** » Sun Nov 04, 2007 11:37 pm

I friggin despair when I read these bloody stupid statistics quoted about Crouch.

The lad's ungainly and he's not the prettiest player I've seen and he's a lot taller than nearly everyone on this site and if the rumours are true he's a bloody site better hung than any of you. At the end of the day the team looks better with him than without him especially if the team is picked to use his strong points (and yes to all those smartarsises who think otherwise, the lad's got skill)

His treatment this season has been a disgrace. At the very least Raffa should have come out and given the true reason why he's not picking the lad. Then we'd know if there is another cause, which is Crouchies fault.
Somehow I doubt it.

by **Ciggy** » Mon Nov 05, 2007 9:17 am

Id really like to know what he has done wrong for not starting whilst Torres is injured Kuyt and Voronin are to similar and every time Crouch has come on in a game we look the better for it.

If the reason is as Saint has pointed out that we will have to pay another 2 million for him.
So be it we are shooting ourselves in the foot by not playing him.

I feel really sorry for him the way he has been treated he doesnt deserve it.

Unless ofcourse something more sinister has happened behind the scenes?

by **mungi** » Mon Nov 05, 2007 9:57 am

crouch would be better off starting then coming off the bench to me as if he comes on with say 20 mins left he rarely gets any touches and if we need a goal we just bomb the ball to him. starting him then bringing some1 hu is fast and has plenty of energy will be better off

by **The_Rock** » Mon Nov 05, 2007 10:05 am

Baros went through it in 2004/2005
Cisse went through it in 2005/2006
Bellamy went through it in 2006/2007
Guess now its crouch's turn.....

History repeating itself....

by **Paul C** » Mon Nov 05, 2007 10:19 am

Ciggy wrote:Id really like to know what he has done wrong for not starting whilst Torres is injured Kuyt and Voronin are to similar and every time Crouch has come on in a game we look the better for it.

If the reason is as Saint has pointed out that we will have to pay another 2 million for him.
So be it we are shooting ourselves in the foot by not playing him.

I feel really sorry for him the way he has been treated he doesnt deserve it.

Unless ofcourse something more sinister has happened behind the scenes?

Agreed, not paying 2m could cost us a lot more not progressing in the CL

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