Liverpool FC Forum

by **66-1112520797** » Thu Nov 01, 2007 11:18 pm

Bad Bob wrote:
s@int wrote:Fair enough mate - That brings in another cup for Houllier then

Your defence of the man is admirable, mate. What happened? Houllier buy you a few pints in town one night? You must have told him you wer Irish!

by **account deleted by request** » Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:53 am

The other thing was the emergence through the ranks of Gerrard and Carragher (although in the latter case Rafa can take huge cerdit IMHO for the players developement). To have a one genuinely World Class player, (two if you consider Owen at his peak) and another who would get in pretty much most teams in the league come through for free is an absolute Godsend. Gerrard in todays market would be absolutely any price you care to name, while even at his age Carragher wouldn't come cheap. You would certainly be getting a bargain if you picked up both for less than 50 million squid.

We haven't made the best of the very talented players that have made it through to the first team unfortunately. Macmanaman, Fowler, Owen, Gerrard, Carragher........ Unbelievable to think they haven't got a EPL title between them. Even more unbelievable that we let 3 of them escape for next to nothing in comparison to their real worth.

by **god_bless_john_houlding** » Sat Nov 03, 2007 2:35 am

Under Houllier we were a long ball team. Under Benitez we are long ball team. I don't see a great deal of change in the way we play.

by **VamosRafa** » Sat Nov 03, 2007 3:02 am

you have to use the league as a real marker of how much the team has progressed. Under benitez we've never even challenged, that is to say, we've never been in contention with 4/5 games to go. Until this happens, no one can truly say the team has taken a step forward since the days of houllier, being a great cup side just doesn't cut it for me, the league is bread and butter. Progress? Lets see how we're doing in April 2008, then we'll see how far we've come under rafa

by **Bad Bob** » Sat Nov 03, 2007 4:37 am

god_bless_john_houlding wrote:Under Houllier we were a long ball team. Under Benitez we are long ball team. I don't see a great deal of change in the way we play.

Well, for one thing we play a much higher line under Rafa than we did under Houllier. We also are much better at keeping possession under Rafa's set up (when we have the likes of Agger, Alonso and Aurelio in the line-up). Under Houllier, long ball was Plan A and under Rafa it's plan B. Unfortunately, when injuries stack up and confidence is low--as it is at the moment--the easy option is to hoist the ball upfield at the earliest opportunity. That doesn't mean we set up to play long ball.

by **account deleted by request** » Wed May 12, 2010 12:12 pm

Just been reading through this thread from a "happier time" when it was still possible to discuss the merits and problems with our manager without being abused. If there were doubts at the time about the progress we had made, I think they have been well and truly settled now. 7th place, out of all the cups in embarrassingly quick time, with a squad with more holes than a swiss cheese, and rumours that most of our best players want to leave seems to fill most of the categories raised in this thread as warning signs. I am sure even BadBob's gut feelings are now screaming "its time"

by **Bad Bob** » Wed May 12, 2010 12:35 pm

Bad Bob wrote:But next summer will be absolutely pivotal. Big Mick's already said as much in terms of the rotation policy but I also think that Rafa will have to be immaculate in his transfer dealings next summer. Will he be prepared to sell the likes of Riise, Sissoko, Kuyt and Voronin in order to bring in another Torres-calibre striker, a top class winger (or two), a quality CB and a fullback that can both defend and get forward? We'll see.

Summer signings for 2008: Keane, Dossena, Riera, Ngog, Degen, Cavalieri

Out the door: Riise, Crouch, Kewell, Carson, Guthrie

Far from immaculate. :down:

by **Bad Bob** » Wed May 12, 2010 12:36 pm

Still right about Houllier and Rafa's first 3 years though! :;):

by **bigmick** » Wed May 12, 2010 2:55 pm

Yep it's a good thread and a throwback to times when the forum was about football and you could debate without being called a disgrace every five minutes. I was quite pro Rafa then by the look of things (aside form the rotation of course). I wonder if in November 2007 you would have told people we wouldn't win a trophy for three seasons and counting and would finish 7th in 2010, 13 points ahead of Blackburn whether people would have believed you. If you'd told them we were going to get beat at Home in the cup by Reading in 2010 (if indeed it was this year we got knocked out, we might have gone before christmas I can't remember) I wonder if they'd have believed it. If you'd told them that after finishing seventh, two points ahead of Everton, that anybody criticising the manager would be hounded to distraction on the forum I wonder if they'd have believed that as well.

We live in strange times indeed.

by **fivecups** » Wed May 12, 2010 6:48 pm

Bad Bob wrote:
Bad Bob wrote:But next summer will be absolutely pivotal. Big Mick's already said as much in terms of the rotation policy but I also think that Rafa will have to be immaculate in his transfer dealings next summer. Will he be prepared to sell the likes of Riise, Sissoko, Kuyt and Voronin in order to bring in another Torres-calibre striker, a top class winger (or two), a quality CB and a fullback that can both defend and get forward? We'll see.

Summer signings for 2008: Keane, Dossena, Riera, Ngog, Degen, Cavalieri

Out the door: Riise, Crouch, Kewell, Carson, Guthrie

Far from immaculate.

Not much better since then.

And bought since:

Glen Johnson
Alberto Aquilani
Sotirios Kyrgiakos
Daniel Ayala
Maxi Rodriguez
Jonjo Shelvey

And sold since:

Robbie Keane
Jack Hobbs
Paul Anderson
Astrit Ajdarevic
Sebastian Leto
Jermaine Pennant
Miki Roque
Álvaro Arbeloa
Xabi Alonso
Andrea Dossena
Andriy Voronin
Nikolay Mihaylov

by **kunilson** » Wed May 12, 2010 10:43 pm

wonder what Michael Shields thinks of our progress.

Poor guy remembered us as European champions, now this. Obviously wouldnt mean anything in the grand scheme of things but i guess he would be the BEST person to ask in terms of how our style of play has changed over the years.

by **account deleted by request** » Wed May 12, 2010 10:58 pm

bigmick wrote:Yep it's a good thread and a throwback to times when the forum was about football and you could debate without being called a disgrace every five minutes. I was quite pro Rafa then by the look of things (aside form the rotation of course). I wonder if in November 2007 you would have told people we wouldn't win a trophy for three seasons and counting and would finish 7th in 2010, 13 points ahead of Blackburn whether people would have believed you. If you'd told them we were going to get beat at Home in the cup by Reading in 2010 (if indeed it was this year we got knocked out, we might have gone before christmas I can't remember) I wonder if they'd have believed it. If you'd told them that after finishing seventh, two points ahead of Everton, that anybody criticising the manager would be hounded to distraction on the forum I wonder if they'd have believed that as well.

We live in strange times indeed.

I think we were all a little more optimistic back then mate. The more he moved out the old players and brought in his own the less optimistic we became

The saddest thing for me is just how many holes our squad now has. Makes Houllier's squad seem almost well balanced....

by **Owzat** » Thu May 13, 2010 7:44 am

fivecups wrote:Not much better since then.

And bought since:

Glen Johnson
Alberto Aquilani
Sotirios Kyrgiakos
Daniel Ayala
Maxi Rodriguez
Jonjo Shelvey

And sold since:

Robbie Keane
Jack Hobbs
Paul Anderson
Astrit Ajdarevic
Sebastian Leto
Jermaine Pennant
Miki Roque
Álvaro Arbeloa
Xabi Alonso
Andrea Dossena
Andriy Voronin
Nikolay Mihaylov

Not going to include Milan Jovanovic and that Danny Wilson kid from Rangers? Even if you wish to be pedantic and say signed as opposed to bought, did we pay for Rodriguez?

I'd say our signings already for next season say it all about our "progress". Ask any LFC fan last summer if they thought we'd be signing Shelvey, Wilson and Jovanovic I bet most if not all would say "oo de 'ell are dey?" and "ya kiddin'?" Sure we can't expect £20m signings to be announced months before pre-season even, but come on.

I know quite a lot persisted in saying this season was/is a "blip", but is it? Sure it is a bad low and none of us expected it to be this bad, but we were top 3-5 bar last season and we've had one season above that and this season below, so where's the evidence last season wasn't a blip and this season is?!? Chelsea and the mancs were better than us, by some margin at times over the past six seasons, and Arsenal were at best around and about us, but more often better. Now spudz, villa and Citeh haven't so much caught us up as we've stepped back a bit to accommodate their slight improvement.

Back when Rafa arrived we had a small handful of quality players, now we have a small handful of quality players. For Torres read Owen, for Gerrard read improved Gerrard, for Caragher read declining Carragher, for Hyypia read Agger, and so on. We now have a quality keeper, that's about the only area we are markedly improved on in SIX years. Still problems on the flanks, wings and full-backs. Even with Gerrard maturing if not performing quite as well this season, we've not move forwards. We've got no real depth of squad and as many costly signings who ain't up to much now as we had when they were mainly French/signed from the French league.

Never mind, muck about with the figures and we can show net spends of not a lot and clause down the actual fees from £20m to 5p with a bit of creative thinking :Oo:

by **kazza** » Thu May 13, 2010 1:03 pm

There was definite progress up untill this season so let's not forget the facts, we were actually tipped by many to win it this year afterall. This year was a blip and I will not write off Rafa on this season's performance in light of all that has been going on at the club, it would not be fair. Another bad season?? I'll cross that bridge when I come to it, I'd rather stay positive.

by **stmichael** » Thu May 13, 2010 1:17 pm

kazza wrote:There was definite progress up untill this season so let's not forget the facts, we were actually tipped by many to win it this year afterall. This year was a blip and I will not write off Rafa on this season's performance in light of all that has been going on at the club, it would not be fair. Another bad season?? I'll cross that bridge when I come to it, I'd rather stay positive.

exactly how i feel.

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