Liverpool FC Forum

by **stmichael** » Fri Nov 02, 2007 1:02 pm

All the talk over the past couple of weeks and the continual w@nkfest from the media over the Arsenal "kids" has got me thinking about how some of our fans would react if we took the same approach as they have done over the past couple of seasons. Obviously we have recruited a lot of youth from all over the world under Rafa's tenure but few of them have ever made a first team appearance during that time. I'm comparing our approach to the Arsenal situation where, for all intents and purposes, they have sacrificed their league ambitions for two seasons in order to give their younger players necessary experience and form a stronger side for the future. I just wonder what the reaction would be if Rafa did the same and started a new team from scratch based on youth? Should we be expecting a championship winning calibre side each and every season or would it be wiser to be patient while the new talent Rafa has bought up is allowed to develop into what would hopefully be a side able to challenge?

Having watched the under 18's and read a lot about Pacheco, Bruna etc, should we be looking to blood a couple of them at a time while they are 17 or so? The odds are that short term, we might not be as strong but in the long term it might be benefical to us.

If there was a strategy in place where we were developing and playing youngsters with a long term plan and at the same time we were playing good football and finishing in the CL places, getting to a CL final and winning the odd cup I wouldn't complain at all. Instead our team is riddled with average to good players - Voronin, Kuyt, Pennant, Crouch, Riise, to name but 5.

Big Niall was making the point the other day that Wenger is spending far less than Rafa and at the same time developing players who are probably worth 5 times the initial fee... Rafa on the hand hand has not introduced any young players into the team except for £10M Babel and £7M Agger both of who were over 20 when they signed.

Managers might get away with convincing their employers that they need some time to get things right, but they certainly won't get much slack if they say 'well I'm going to start playing a load of potentials, we'll get absolutely whipped for 2 years and then suddenly we'll be world-beaters'. Nice rosy idea but the real world doesn;t work that way.

No, I don't think any manager in his right mind would deliberately throw away his chances of winning silverware, in an attempt to get things going a couple of years down the line. The ONLY time you might conceivably suggest it is when the manager FIRST arrives at a club. I think it's more a case of opportunity and coincidence rather than some grand plan on Wenger's part. That said, he has to be congratulated on recruiting the quality of players he has.

Thoughts?

by **puroresu** » Fri Nov 02, 2007 1:18 pm

It would be difficult for Rafa to take an approach like that now. His not won the title yet and it would be a huge task convince fans that a side was being built to win a title in 2, 3, or 4 years time. Like you say an approach like this has to be done when someone first arrives at the club. For Wenger its not just been about going out and signing young talent. The whole football culture and mentality has been changed at arsenal from the top straight down to the bottom. Those kids are playing the same way as the first team do and thats why they never look out of place. Its like they do 11 a side football on a 5 a side pitch.

Personally if I saw the same quality of kids coming through and the football was top quality then I would have a lot more hope for the future. As long as we were challenging and still getting good runs in Europe I would be supportive of such a scheme.

For Arsenal its interesting as any arsenal fan will tell u that going to watch them play is pure entertainment and a joy to watch. However this season I do think the fans have an expectation to win trophies and this year.

by **god_bless_john_houlding** » Fri Nov 02, 2007 1:22 pm

I think it's all about bringing the younger players being brought through gradually. Take Agger for example, he played a few games while Hyypia and Carragher was still the number one central defending partnership. Agger was able to build up a relationship with Carragher which has set him in good stead and we're seeing the affects of that now. I more than most have asked to see the youngsters given a go but I do think throwing 7 or 8 in from the word go is not going to help us. 1 or 2 breaking through season after season would be good to see. The youngsters need to be given a chance with the normal 1st teamers. For example it looks as if Lucas could have a bright future at Anfield so he needs to be in and aroud the 1st team learning his trade off Gerrard, Alonso, Mascheranho and Sissoko before he makes the central midfield role his own. Jack Hobbs looks as if he is going to be the back up to Carra and Agger over the coming years so again he has to be given a couple of games along side either Carra or Agger so when he finally does break through they'l already have an understanding with one another. Leto has been raved about in the reserves so why not give him a sustained run in the 1st team rather than one or two games in the league cup and expect him to be a superstar.

by **stmichael** » Fri Nov 02, 2007 1:26 pm

god_bless_john_houlding wrote:Jack Hobbs looks as if he is going to be the back up to Carra and Agger over the coming years so again he has to be given a couple of games along side either Carra or Agger so when he finally does break through they'l already have an understanding with one another. Leto has been raved about in the reserves so why not give him a sustained run in the 1st team rather than one or two games in the league cup and expect him to be a superstar.

Fair point about Hobbs. I thought he did well the other night. He has a very good chance of making the step up eventually and that year he spent in midfield seems to have did him a lot of good. As you said he needs to be brought in slowly in order for his confidence to build. I seriously can't believe the likes of Palletta were ahead of him in the pecking order.

By the way, what a name Jack Hobbs is. Sounds like he should be playing in the 1930's.

by **Big Niall** » Fri Nov 02, 2007 1:28 pm

1 getting a regular spot every year would be good.

I think Wenger is the master at this and has been since he signed a young unknown for 500k called Anelka.

LFC haven't really done much since SG - Souness and EVans brought through a good few, Houllier and Rafa have brought none despite potential of pongolle,letellec,full back with long name (began with "o" - can't think of it), mellor etc

by **god_bless_john_houlding** » Fri Nov 02, 2007 1:30 pm

stmichael wrote:
god_bless_john_houlding wrote:Jack Hobbs looks as if he is going to be the back up to Carra and Agger over the coming years so again he has to be given a couple of games along side either Carra or Agger so when he finally does break through they'l already have an understanding with one another. Leto has been raved about in the reserves so why not give him a sustained run in the 1st team rather than one or two games in the league cup and expect him to be a superstar.

Fair point about Hobbs. I thought he did well the other night. He has a very good chance of making the step up eventually and that year he spent in midfield seems to have did him a lot of good. As you said he needs to be brought in slowly in order for his confidence to build. I seriously can't believe the likes of Palletta were ahead of him in the pecking order.

By the way, what a name Jack Hobbs is. Sounds like he should be playing in the 1930's.

Jack Hobbs was a cricketer from the 30s Michael. Maybe thats were you're getting it from

by **maximus** » Fri Nov 02, 2007 1:35 pm

Agree with pretty much everything said in St Micks post, however IMHO before we go down the 'lets use the youth' routem we have to 'Get that Monkey off our back' by that I mean win a Premier league Championship first. Unitil we do the pressure will be on BIG STYLE, 17 years and counting and all that.

You cannot compare Arsene Wenger to Benitez. Wenger won the Premier League title in his first season? using the existing squad he inherited with a few additions, he has created a Dynasty at Arsenal, and as such has built and rebuilt Championship squads in that time.

by **stmichael** » Fri Nov 02, 2007 1:38 pm

Here's a question. If we had signed Theo Walcott instead of Arsenal, how many games do you think he would have played for us by now?

by **god_bless_john_houlding** » Fri Nov 02, 2007 1:38 pm

Big Niall wrote:1 getting a regular spot every year would be good.

I think Wenger is the master at this and has been since he signed a young unknown for 500k called Anelka.

LFC haven't really done much since SG - Souness and EVans brought through a good few, Houllier and Rafa have brought none despite potential of pongolle,letellec,full back with long name (began with "o" - can't think of it), mellor etc

Jon Ostembor who ended up spending time on loan at Bolton and ended up with Crewe.

Darren Potter was also given a go by Houllier but didn't make the grade under Benitez and was flogged to Wolves.

Paul Anderson has shown his quality in the youth and reserves and even now on loan at Swansea but I can't see him making the cut ahead of Pennant.

Scott Carson another youngster Benitez has bought and sent out on loan, again though Carson won't cut it at Liverpool while Reina is still there.

So instead of looking to bring youngsters through in the positions we already have quality in is pointless. We should be looking to bring through a left back, Robbie Threlfall looks most promising and the next Robbie Fowler needs to be brought through, Craig Linfield looks like a decent fella, not Fowler granted but at least he can score. There's also Hammill, Putterill, Antwi and of course last year's youth side captain Jay Spearing who's getting raved views in the reserves.

by **Bad Bob** » Fri Nov 02, 2007 1:43 pm

I can just imagine the reaction from supporters. Rafa already gets stick for rotating established players...imagine how much grief he would get if he threw kids into the mix?

Bedding in the youngsters requires a degree of patience that the supporters--and perhaps the new owners--don't have at the moment. I doubt even 'stubborn' Rafa would take such a gamble at this point.

by **puroresu** » Fri Nov 02, 2007 1:44 pm

stmichael wrote:Here's a question. If we had signed Theo Walcott instead of Arsenal, how many games do you think he would have played for us by now?

I aint sure how many games Walcott would of played but I don't think he would be given the same amount of expressive freedom if he went to us instead.

One thing which is difficult to judge players is in the reserves. The standard of reserve team football is so low compared to the first team that it offers no indication of someone's ability to step up to the next level.

Its not really a matter of just signing youngsters and playing them for the sake of it. Thats a mistake many clubs fans have in thinking that just by playing youngsters it means they are good enough.

by **JohnBull** » Fri Nov 02, 2007 1:45 pm

Next week will show if Raffa has got to the Wenger stage.

The Gunners have pulled out ALL the stops to get the wonder kid Pablo Sarabia from Real and are hoping to sign the 15 year old next wednesday. They've offered his whole family a move to London with new houses and the lot.

Raffa has made the right moves already to undermine this as the kid is best mates with Gerado Bruna and Daniel Pacheco (already here !). The stories coming from Spain favour the Gunners at the moment and this youngster is described as the best ever.

It will be interesting to watch who wins the tug-of-war over this lad just hope it is us and this prospect becomes nearly as good as the adverts.

Agree that we should be using more of our "reserves" rather than the average first teamers.

by **JoeTerp** » Fri Nov 02, 2007 1:46 pm

One reason why people don't seem to be getting the breakthrough is that a lot of our top youth talent is out on loan. Guthrie, Hammill, and Anderson were the three that I had the most hope for. Certianly the level of training and coaching at these smaller clubs wont be at the LFC standard, but I am sure that league one and championship game experience is more valuable than reserve experience. It seems that our squad is too big and has too many older fringe players that are taking up the games and minutes that might otherwise be going to the youngsters (i.e. yossi, voronin, momo, aurelio, Risse) and you can argue that some of those are quality and should be playing on a regular or semi regular basis, and thats why its hard to give Spearing a game or two because that means you have to pick him over one of Gerrard, Xabi, Masch, Momo, Lucas, and Plessis, and guthrie if he wasnt on loan.

I haven't been around for a long time, but it seems like the local well ran dry for a while when Rafa first got here when the best we were producing was Lee Peltier who just doesnt seem like he is going to make it. But I have a lot of hope for some of the members of the fa youth cup winning teams and some of the guys on the current U-18 like Amoo, Pourie, Eccelstone, and maybe Ajdarevic. And Insua seems to be doing very well in the reserves too.

by **stmichael** » Fri Nov 02, 2007 1:46 pm

puroresu wrote:One thing which is difficult to judge players is in the reserves. The standard of reserve team football is so low compared to the first team that it offers no indication of someone's ability to step up to the next level.

Agree 100% with this.

If Brooking really wanted to improve the level of young English players in the country he'd look into providing a structured meaningful league for young players to compete in or at the very least look into the ideas put forward by the likes of Benitez and look at the possibility of B teams.

by **puroresu** » Fri Nov 02, 2007 1:52 pm

JohnBull wrote:Next week will show if Raffa has got to the Wenger stage.

The Gunners have pulled out ALL the stops to get the wonder kid Pablo Sarabia from Real and are hoping to sign the 15 year old next wednesday. They've offered his whole family a move to London with new houses and the lot.

Raffa has made the right moves already to undermine this as the kid is best mates with Gerado Bruna and Daniel Pacheco (already here !). The stories coming from Spain favour the Gunners at the moment and this youngster is described as the best ever.

It will be interesting to watch who wins the tug-of-war over this lad just hope it is us and this prospect becomes nearly as good as the adverts.

Agree that we should be using more of our "reserves" rather than the average first teamers.

These spanish clubs must be really annoyed with the fact that clubs from england can just come and take there kids by offering money, houses etc.

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