It dawned on me on sunday

Liverpool Football Club - General Discussion

Postby Ciggy » Wed Oct 31, 2007 6:59 am

That the team might not be good enough YET to win the league.
So blaming Rafa myself included has been a bit unfair.
We might not agree on some of his decisions e.g. not playing Crouch in Istanbul TWICE against AC Milan in the final or against Besiktas last week.

He may have his reasons for not doing so the referees in Europe target Crouch and give nothing but fouls against him or his lack of pace and we play the long ball when he plays.
I dont know the reasons but Rafa has them.

I also think the reason we havent been up to much in the CL this season is because the hunger for it has gone from the senior players.

Two finals in three years and I would say a few of them are going into their last season at Liverpool and want that trophey they havent got yet the Premiership.

I think Riise and Hyypia will leave at the end of the season and next season Carra will be a year older as will Finnan they will find themselves not playing every game next season.  If replacements are brought in YOUNGER ones.

Carra was a rock on sunday ecspecially doing the job of two defenders in the last few games.
Once Agger is back it will be a relief for him.

When I said the team might not be good enough I mean we have some really great players and we have players that do just a job to fill the numbers up.

Arbeloa, Aurelio, Riise, Benayoun, Pennant, Crouch, Sissoko, Voronin.
None of these players would be on Arsenal (apart from Pennant :D ) Man United or Chelsea  books.

Whereas Torres, Gerrard, Alonso, Carra, Finnan, Masherano would all walk into their teams.

Even though Rafa has recieved some money to buy players he hasnt been able to buy a team of world class players, we missed out on Vidic and Evra because we couldnt afford them at the time they went on to win the title with Man United and played a part in winning them the league.

If they had been here would we have?
I dont think so.
Because we have had to settle for second best in the wide areas our wingers are not really a threat they dont score enough goals they dont scare anyone.

And until we get the problem areas sorted out we wont be strong enough I feel.

The Arsenal game on sunday was a really great game to watch nerve wrecking but exciting and I was gutted we didnt hold on but I have to be fair and say they deserved something out the game for the football they played even though it hurts me to say it.

But what has fucked us up this season was the two draws against Portsmouth and Birmingham Rafa was to blame for them results 6 changes for one 7 for the other if we would have won them two games the draw on sunday wouldnt have been that bad.

But we have taken 4 points off our title challengers this season which can only be a good thing, remember when Chelsea tw@tted us 4-1 at Anfield a few seasons back and the humiliation of what Arsenal done last season in the Cup games.
So we have improved on that front.

Ive been angry with Rafa I dont agree with some of the decisions he makes he pisses me off with his major rotations that he does sometimes e.g. 7 changes.

If he cuts that out and reduces the amount to 1 or 2 players there will be vast improvements in the team.
I am gutted Alonso will be out for about three months now he has been missed terribly he is part of the spine of the team his loss is like Chelsea missing Lampard, Arsenal missing Fabregras, and Man United missing Paul Scholes.

They would suffer like we have Torres has been a big loss as has Agger these three players are vital to our title challenge and their injuries maybe the deciding factor in us not winning it.

Replacing Rafa is NOT the answer Im afraid there is no one I want to replace him.
Now is not the time for a squad overhaul.
Bet your life if he left so would Reina, Alonso and Torres 3 of our most important players IMO.

For another manager to come in and rip the team apart would have a terrible effect on the club.
Back to square one again and I for one cant be @rsed with it If I am honest.
The man put us back on the map in Europe lets not forget he gave us the best night of our lives.
Even my mothers life who had been to the other 5 CL finals she said Istanbul was the best ever.

Before Rafa came along Liverpool where known as the once greats after Istanbul he made us great again.
I am not clinging to that trophey either, I dont agree with his choices at times, he pisses me off on occasions, I wish he would play Kuyt in his proper position but for the things that annoy me about him, there are more things I like about him. 

So the pro's outweigh the Con's.

Give him a little more time my gut feeling is he will get it right in the end.
There is no-one anywhere in the world at any stage who is any bigger or any better than this football club.

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Postby Ciggy » Wed Oct 31, 2007 7:16 am

Knicked from  RAWK from Spainish Fan.

The Benitez interview took place during his final year at Valencia after a defeat in the Spanish Cup against Real Madrid.
The Sacchi interview was just before the Athens CH L final.

Rafas interview.

Talent makes the difference, but it shouldn’t be incompatible with obligations.

With hard work, perseverance and great didactic ability, Rafael Benitez has transformed Valencia into a football team in the most broad sense of the word. 

We’ve heard that your players are furious about getting knocked out in the Spanish Cup

Furious is not the word, but rather focused, confident and well prepared. Every game is different. We are taking the positives of the 3-0 defeat in the Cup game. We created 7 goal scoring chances at the Bernabeu. We controlled the game for long periods and we played well.

But they hurt you in the areas you had prepared most

That’s true. We had talked about Ronaldo not getting the ball, stopping him controlling the ball and turning. We could have stopped their second goal, but to do everything right during 90 minutes is impossible, no matter how much you prepare the team.

At the end of the day, the quality and talent of Real Madrid players made the difference.

In football talent makes the difference, and Real Madrid have a lot of talent. They have many options. If you worry about their play in the middle, they attack you in the wide areas with Roberto Carlos, and if you try to press high they have Beckham to play balls behind your defence…
When you try to stop their short passing they will change the direction of the attack with a long pass. They know all the secrets of football.

That’s the reason your team are doing so well. You don’t have as much talent, but are fighting for the league.

Yes, I feel we deserve praise. The team are trying their best and we are getting close to having the best season in the history of Valencia. We have been working hard for many months, but our target is not to win the league title but to challenge, to be in the top four and not feeling down if we don’t win it.

Can this Valencia side get better?
If we continue working like this we can improve. When you make the same mistakes game after game there is always margin for improvement.

Could you be as effective and intense if you had players of the calibre of Real Madrid?

I can only talk from my own experience. Firstly I coached two modest teams, Extremadura and Tenerife, and we were promoted to Primera Division. Then I arrived at Valencia and people were questioning if I could be successful. I showed that you can do the same work in a big team. The better the player, the easier to reach your targets.
Along with quality and talent it is important that the player is a good professional who wants to work hard and improve. At Extremadura the players had to work harder than at Valencia. You have to adapt to the players but the more talent they have the better the chances of being successful and they will be allowed more freedom on the pitch. Talent is not incompatible with obligations.

At Extremadura to get to the goal may cost you 5 kilometres, at Valencia 4.5, and at Real Madrid 4.
My example is Milan’s Sacchi. That team had quality, discipline and intensity. Didn’t they?

I am not going to argue with you on that

That’s why you can ask Real Madrid players similar things, even if not exactly the same. Milan are the team that have impressed me most in the last two decades. The Real Madrid of la “Quinta del Buitre” played very good football, so did the Dream Team of Johan Cruyff. It was very entertaining stuff, but Milan played well and they didn’t allow the opposition to play well, they were ruthless. Now there are good teams like Real Madrid, Juventus, Manchester United, Milan who are the current European Champions, but it is not the same.

You speak like if they were the best of the best.

I think it is almost impossible to reach that level of strength, focus and organization. I know that in the history of the game there have been great teams like the Real Madrid of the 5 European Cups or the Santos of Pele that probably were better. But of all the teams I have seen Milan were the most compact and competitive.

Let’s go back to the present. Losing on Sunday would mean saying goodbye to the league

Of course not. If we lose there are still enough games to get back into contention. We’ll be challenging.

Real Madrid are in the Champions League and that’s a tough competition

Well, we are in the UEFA Cup and it is not as demanding but yet it makes it harder for us.
The great virtue of Real Madrid is that even when they are playing badly they win. They have 5 chances and they score 3. Talent makes the difference. We were saying before, weren’t we?

What’s your opinion on the current Real Madrid side, having played two consecutive games against them?

For a team with so much individual talent, they play well as a team on occasions. I have noticed that their players are well motivated, and when you mix that with talent the performance is better. They have managed to perform well with Zidane out of the team. Those games were he was not present may have helped them perform better collectively, thing for which they were criticized in the past. I know for a fact that it is very difficult to find the balance in a team when you have so many star players. It is true that you should play all your quality players, but sometimes the team is more balanced when one is missing.

How can your team hurt Real Madrid?

If they don’t have the ball they struggle, but it is not easy to get it back from them, and they have showed that even without seeing much of the ball they still can kill you. We have recent evidence of that. They are a team that I know by heart, but I am more worried about us doing things well. I know it is not easy for other teams to get at us, but we also lose games and to avoid that we should stop making mistakes.

Is this Valencia team better than the one that won the league?

We have more options, we have better numbers, the players are as committed as they were then and they are more used to the system we play. We have played 8 or 10 games in the league almost perfectly, yet there are still margin for improvement. Sometimes we don’t press well. Other times we don’t play the counterattack well…

And Sacchi's interview.


Benitez is an encyclopaedia. He reminds me of myself when I was young.

You must be proud that two of your pupils are in the final.


I am more than proud. They’ve learnt too much. Last year at Real Madrid when we played Barcelona we had dinner with Laporta and he told me that Rijkaard has learned a lot from me. After our 3-0 defeat I told Laporta that Rijkaard had learnt too much, so have Benitez and Ancelotti.

It is normal in the case of Carlo. After all he played for you. But Benitez went to learn your methods in his honeymoon, that’s stranger.

He came to see me work at Milanello and when I was with the Italian NT.
He is a great coach. He is showing that in a special football like English football. His biggest strength is that he can achieve much with very few top quality players. Gerrard is his most talented player, but he hasn’t got two like him. Liverpool are exemplary in two ways: their spirit and tactical organization. Benitez knows what he is doing. His team lacks talent, but they are a true team, compact, modern and with a great football culture. He’s work has been fantastic.

He has said no to Real Madrid again.

I know, I have read it. I believe Rafa is ready to coach Real Madrid or any club in the world. He is a master like very few, and when you have an encyclopaedia like him on the bench you have to trust the master. Rafa reminds me of myself when I was young. He is like me in some ways, but he has gone higher than me. He won the league and the UEFA Cup with Valencia. He arrived at Liverpool with a better CV than me when I arrived at Milan from Parma. I don’t share the opinion that Rafa can only coach teams without stars. If the star players don’t work hard they are worth nothing. You can see proof of that at Real Madrid last season.

Ancelotti has more to choose from. Milan are something else.

Yes, his team have more talent, more technical ability, more ability to keep the ball and boss the games. Their season has been a strange one. A few months ago they were going nowhere and now they are in the European Cup final after playing four extraordinary games against Bayern and Manchester. It is not common at all to start that badly and finish so strongly. The signature of Ronaldo, even if he can’t play in Europe, has helped them a lot. He has brought joy to the dressing room. Now Milan are almost the perfect mixture of what a great team must possess: technique, tactics, strength, stamina, the culture, a clear mind.
But they are not yet at the level of your Milan side…
I don’t know…The other day I spoke to Costacurta, who played for me 20 years ago and is still playing and told me that this Milan team has not reached the level of the old Milan. But against Manchester, in San Siro, they were very close, if not better. I admire their individual and collective creativity, their culture, their pressure on the ball and their speed.

In other words, Milan are clear favourites.

Yes, but I must say that they are playing the most difficult rival they could play. They are going to find it harder to beat Liverpool than United. Liverpool know all the secrets of football because their coach knows them all and because that club knows them from long ago. Liverpool can hurt teams playing counterattacking football, with those long passes. Milan should not leave space for them if they are to avoid negative surprises.
Last edited by Ciggy on Wed Oct 31, 2007 7:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
There is no-one anywhere in the world at any stage who is any bigger or any better than this football club.

Kenny Dalglish 1/2/2011

REST IN PEACE PHIL, YOU WILL NEVER BE FORGOTTEN.
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Postby Dimshen » Wed Oct 31, 2007 3:25 pm

I think i should read that interview every time we lose
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Postby account deleted by request » Wed Oct 31, 2007 4:02 pm

Thanks for that Ciggy, much appreciated and maybe needed
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Postby god_bless_john_houlding » Wed Oct 31, 2007 5:51 pm

Ciggy wrote:That the team might not be good enough YET to win the league.
So blaming Rafa myself included has been a bit unfair.

Our team isn't good enough? If every side in the Premiership had a fully fit side, ours is clearly the best. We've got Europe's best kepper, Ireland's number one right back, the most consistant centre half in Europe for the last 5 years, the best young centre half in Europe, and a very solid left back in Arbeloa. Pennant's been playing out of his skin for the last 6 months or so, 2 of the world's best passers of a football also including the world's greatest player in Gerrard and on the left one of Holland's brightest prospects. Up top we have a world star in Torres and Crouch has proven that without him we're a lot worse. As for the bench, if we hadn't loaned Carson out, we'd have England's next keeper, Finland's best ever centre half, one of Argentina's most important players, the Israli captain and a Dutch international. And that's if we're excluding the rest of the squad who the majority are also full internationals. So how can people say our current side isn't good enough? It's either coming down to tactics, rotation, the departure of Pako, players not happy playing under Benitez or a combinantion of all 5. Sod all to do with the players quality.

And yes I have stated in other posts on the forum that certain players aren't good enough, but out of the 16 I spoke of there only Kuyt in my eyes isn't worthy of a place in the Liverpool squad.
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2) pass and move is the Liverpool groove
3) FIRST WILL ALWAYS BE FIRST AND SECOND WILL ALWAYS BE NOTHING.
4) If Torres has scored 60 league goals for Liverpool by the start of the 2011/12 season, I'll say he's better than Owen.
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Postby hishhish » Wed Oct 31, 2007 6:02 pm

thanks for that great post, finallly some sense in this forum and someone looking further than the recent games. I believe the number one ingredient for success is consistency, followed by dedication, support AND some luck. It frustrates me ( a supporter for 30 years) to hear some of the comments being made about trashing Rafa. He is working on building from scratch really, AND competing in a very different environment from the 70s, 80s and even 90s.
I would add, people shouldn't live in the past, and keep on talking about the way Liverpool used to play. I saw the old liverpool play, I can tell you the quality of the opposition is nothing like it is now. So many foreign players, so much money, so much more developed athletes. It is very different.
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Postby maguskwt » Wed Oct 31, 2007 6:34 pm

god_bless_john_houlding wrote:
Ciggy wrote:That the team might not be good enough YET to win the league.
So blaming Rafa myself included has been a bit unfair.

Our team isn't good enough? If every side in the Premiership had a fully fit side, ours is clearly the best. We've got Europe's best kepper, Ireland's number one right back, the most consistant centre half in Europe for the last 5 years, the best young centre half in Europe, and a very solid left back in Arbeloa. Pennant's been playing out of his skin for the last 6 months or so, 2 of the world's best passers of a football also including the world's greatest player in Gerrard and on the left one of Holland's brightest prospects. Up top we have a world star in Torres and Crouch has proven that without him we're a lot worse. As for the bench, if we hadn't loaned Carson out, we'd have England's next keeper, Finland's best ever centre half, one of Argentina's most important players, the Israli captain and a Dutch international. And that's if we're excluding the rest of the squad who the majority are also full internationals. So how can people say our current side isn't good enough? It's either coming down to tactics, rotation, the departure of Pako, players not happy playing under Benitez or a combinantion of all 5. Sod all to do with the players quality.

And yes I have stated in other posts on the forum that certain players aren't good enough, but out of the 16 I spoke of there only Kuyt in my eyes isn't worthy of a place in the Liverpool squad.

right... of course we're like real madrid now aren't we?

another BS post coming soon to your nearest neighbourhood online forum...
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Postby Kash_Mountain » Wed Oct 31, 2007 6:51 pm

Another problem is that Stevie G always seems to be our "get out of jail" card. Don't get me wrong, he's done so much for the club, however we need more players like him who can turn a game and win it.
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Postby Elchris » Wed Oct 31, 2007 7:34 pm

Reina
Finnan Carra Agger Arbeloa

       Alonso Mascherano
Pennant                  Kewell
              Gerrard
              Torres

Looks like a premier league winning team to me . Mayb we could get a world class winger that could increase our chances . Even as a whole squad we look good.
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Postby metalhead » Wed Oct 31, 2007 9:06 pm

I agree with Ciggy, 5 or 6 poor performances shows we are still not good enough, we still lack a couple of quality players to win the league. For instance, our backup strikers are really not good enough if we have Torres out injured, it showed in majority of the games. Also, Rafa failed to get cover for Agger, which proved that we didn't have any defence cover.
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Postby Effes » Wed Oct 31, 2007 10:04 pm

Was thinking the other day,

If I was given £1000 to bet whether we would win the league with Rafa in the
next 3 seasons (including this one) at Evens either way...

I would put it on us NOT to win the league.
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Postby god_bless_john_houlding » Thu Nov 01, 2007 12:17 am

hishhish wrote:thanks for that great post, finallly some sense in this forum and someone looking further than the recent games. I believe the number one ingredient for success is consistency, followed by dedication, support AND some luck. It frustrates me ( a supporter for 30 years) to hear some of the comments being made about trashing Rafa. He is working on building from scratch really, AND competing in a very different environment from the 70s, 80s and even 90s.
I would add, people shouldn't live in the past, and keep on talking about the way Liverpool used to play. I saw the old liverpool play, I can tell you the quality of the opposition is nothing like it is now. So many foreign players, so much money, so much more developed athletes. It is very different.

Benitez was building from scratch? He had the same back 4 he has now in Finnan/Carra/Hyypia/Riise. He had Gerrard coming into his prime. He had Kirkland who was tipped by many to be the permanant replacement of David Seaman as England's number 1. He had a very solid player in Didi Hamann who proved how vital he was to Liverpool Football Club and he had just taken over a club that included Euro 2004's top scorer in Baros. So wheres scratch? A couple of half decent wide men which I might add he still hasn't found two great wide men, he's found 1 in Pennant. Fair enough Benitez inherited a squad which bolstered the likes of Diao and Biscan but saying Benitez had to build from practically scratch is nonesense. Benitez inherted a bloody good crop of players, and i've been supporting Liverpool Football Club for nearly 40 years and some comparrisons from now and then aren't unfair, because basic football skills haven't changed throughout time.
1) You'll Never Walk Alone
2) pass and move is the Liverpool groove
3) FIRST WILL ALWAYS BE FIRST AND SECOND WILL ALWAYS BE NOTHING.
4) If Torres has scored 60 league goals for Liverpool by the start of the 2011/12 season, I'll say he's better than Owen.
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Postby hishhish » Thu Nov 01, 2007 5:00 am

god_bless_john_houlding wrote:Benitez was building from scratch?

Well, he inherited a squad, but do you believe any of the players you quoted (including Hamman), BTW you forgot Cisse, Dudek, Berger, the french guy I cannot remember the name of, are they even close to the quality we have now?
I am just saying, any manager taking over a team will need to develop the team to his style. and that means knocking down before building up. That is why, I believe a manager should be given 2-3 years to do that. I think Rafa has done that, in fact, I think he should have knocked down more, and with 1-2 new signings we would be very close ( and getting rid of some dead weights).
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Postby RichardLFC1 » Thu Nov 01, 2007 11:35 am

No we dont have the perfect team yet but we are pretty close in my opion

I think the positions where we are sorted

Keeper - Reina
Right back - Finnan
Centre backs Carragher and Agger

Centre Midfield - Gerrard and Alonso or Mascherano

Striker - Torres

Now if you look back at the season so far. Gerrard has had an injury ruling him out of some games. Agger is out at the moment and Hyypia cant do his job a a 10th as good
and Torres has missed a few games and will be out for a number of weeks. However Rafa is to blame for a few games I.e Birmingham at home we should have gave them a good hiding but although he was pefectly fit he never started Torres. Voronin never rated him and Crouch could have done a better job.

I think you also need a bit of luck to win the league aswell. Injuries weve had a few to some of our big players where as arsenal havent been hit as bad.

All in all we may not have the 11 best players in the league but we have about 7 world class ones and the should be started Week in Week out when they are available.
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Postby Owzat » Thu Nov 01, 2007 2:24 pm

god_bless_john_houlding wrote:Ireland's number one right back

They should hand us the title right now!
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