Liverpool FC Forum

by **Bad Bob** » Wed Oct 31, 2007 7:19 pm

Bamaga man wrote:
Bad Bob wrote:
s@int wrote:
He was poor the other day admittedly, but I hate the arguement that "if we wanted someone to work hard we should have just signed a fan/road digger/whatever" - Boll#cks. I'll never understand the way his work level is held against him. If it's so easy to work hard then why haven't more of the players been doing it recently, especially in the games leading up to the Arsenal match?

Its not that his work rate is held against him, its that work rate is all he seems to offer thats upsetting. I was delighted when he came, I was overjoyed after his first cameo appearance against West ham(?) So I take no pleasure in knocking him, but even a blind man should be able to see that he is offering nothing more than hard work at the moment. His touch is poor, his passing less than insightfull, his goal threat virtually none existant.Before anyone starts quoting the 5 goals he has managed this season... 2
penalties, 2 goals against a poor Toulouse side that were already dead and buried, and one header against Porto.
He has a powerful shot from what I can remember, but its no use if hes so slow and so far back that he never gets the chance to use it. He's relatively poor in the air as he always stands behind the defender rather than trying to get infront, but maybe thats because he has no pace.

Tough but fair.

I no you quoted Saint Bob, but are you starting to see things from my side of the fence now ?

Yeah, credit where it's due, mate--you were (one of?) the first to suggest that Kuyt wasn't good enough and I've now seen enough to agree that he isn't. I think he'd be okay as a squad player but he's not good enough to start week in, week out.

Personally, I don't buy the argument that he's looked poor because he's played out of position. I don't doubt that he played further forward in Holland and that that led to more goals. What I do doubt is that he has the kinds of skills that will allow him to bang in goals for fun against Premiership defenders. How often has he caused a CB problems in the past year? How often has his pace, touch, off the ball movement created scoring opportunities for himself or teammates? Not nearly often enough to be first choice at Liverpool, I'm afraid. It's a shame because I like his attitude and could never question his commitment. I just think we need someone a cut or two above to partner Torres.

by **bigmick** » Wed Oct 31, 2007 8:22 pm

To score goals in football matches you need to get open in the box. Kuyt doesn't get open, and doesn't often get in the box so he ain't going to score many goals. St Mick said he'd like to see him shoot more, well unless he's Ari Haan I'd advise against that. Shots from the half-way line can be infuriating at the best of times.

So why doesn't he get in the box more? Well I think it's a half and half situation. I think the manager wants him to to utilize his non-stop and admirable engine and track back, and I also think that running around a lot is Dirk's comfort zone. He keeps himself out of the box and out of goalscoring situations because his confidence is shot and he's frightened to miss. This makes his taking the two penalties against Everton all the more remarkable. He would have known that he would get slaughtered had he missed either, and however his career goes you've got to admire the bravery of the fella for that.

Could he contribute more if he did play higher up? Well yes, but despite a lot of us thinking we'd signed a real good 'un on first look, I suspect he is never going to be prolific in terms of goals or assists wherever he plays. It's hard to know how we would have to play to enable him to score. Cross it and he isn't going to score with his head over often, play him in and he isn't going to burn anybody off with pace, pass it around him and his movement and anticipation isn't going to get him a yard.

He did actually show promising signs of getting a partnership going with Torres in the first couple of games of the season. Remember those halcyon days when we went to Villa and he set up the own goal, when we ought to have beaten Chelsea and he had a good game again alongside Torres. Had that start been built upon, he may have made it this season. They definately had something going and you got the feeling that playing with Torres he might at last have found a foil. Unfortunately though for Dirk, that was the end of the "partnership" of course as the resting and rotation kicked in adn he was partnered with different players as the situation dictated. Ten games or so with Torres in a winning, confident and fluent unit and he might have made it. He didn't get it though and now he won't IMHO.

by **god_bless_john_houlding** » Thu Nov 01, 2007 12:20 am

Kuyt isn't good enough, plain and simple. Defending from the front is something Bob Paisley always praised Ian Rush for and granted Kuyt does the same, but the difference is Rush defending from the goal line to the edge of the dee, where as Kuyt defends from the edge of our dee to the half way line. We should look to offload him at the earliest opportunity.

by **dawson99** » Thu Nov 01, 2007 12:23 am

god_bless_john_houlding wrote:Kuyt isn't good enough, plain and simple. Defending from the front is something Bob Paisley always praised Ian Rush for and granted Kuyt does the same, but the difference is Rush defending from the goal line to the edge of the dee, where as Kuyt defends from the edge of our dee to the half way line. We should look to offload him at the earliest opportunity.

Disagree, at the moment the midfield just isnt doing its job, and ALL the strikers are suffering from it.

he can score goals, weve seen him do it. the midfield needs to pull its finger out and the defence needs to stop just hoofing the ball. its a passing game.

by **god_bless_john_houlding** » Thu Nov 01, 2007 12:32 am

dawson99 wrote:
god_bless_john_houlding wrote:Kuyt isn't good enough, plain and simple. Defending from the front is something Bob Paisley always praised Ian Rush for and granted Kuyt does the same, but the difference is Rush defending from the goal line to the edge of the dee, where as Kuyt defends from the edge of our dee to the half way line. We should look to offload him at the earliest opportunity.

Disagree, at the moment the midfield just isnt doing its job, and ALL the strikers are suffering from it.

he can score goals, weve seen him do it. the midfield needs to pull its finger out and the defence needs to stop just hoofing the ball. its a passing game.

So the fact that it was two midfielders which won the two penalties which led to the only 2 league goals Kuyt has scored this year means the midfield need to do more? Gerrard has now scored in 3 consecutive games as well as the opening day again means the midfield is struggling? Liverpool score 6 when Kuyt wasn't playing isn't conincedental?

I know I have a blind spot with Kuyt because I've never wanted him as a Liverpool player, but overall he's not up to life at Liverpool.

by **dawson99** » Thu Nov 01, 2007 12:34 am

its just funny that all 4 strikers are struggling... thats all im saying. yes, i do think torres is struggling. veronin, now he is not good enough. crouch hasnt got the right attitude, but id keep kuyt, but im the ying to your yang(??) i like the lad

by **god_bless_john_houlding** » Thu Nov 01, 2007 12:42 am

Voronin with 4 goals in 10 league games for nothing? Kuyt 2 goals in 10 games for 10 million? I can see how you can say Voronin isn't good enough yet Kuyt is.

Torres is struggling because he's been overlooked by Benitez for Kuyt and Voronin on a few occasions now, also he's nursing an injury

And fianlly how can you expect Crouch to run his socks off when he knows he's fourth choice no matter what happens. For example Crouch within the first 20 mins of the second half against Arsenal had more chances than Torres did in 45 mins and more than Voronin and Kuyt had in 90 mins, but you know for a fact it'll still be Kuyt and Voronin up front at Ewood Park, because Crouch is only wanted for the League Cup, which I might add is the only competition we're doing well in.

by **dawson99** » Thu Nov 01, 2007 12:46 am

not doing TOO badly in the league, and still in the fa cup.

veronin may have 4 in 10, but im sorry, the guy is absolute gash when it comes to football. we saw last season that kuyt can play, but he needs the service, and im sticking with that :cool:

by **god_bless_john_houlding** » Thu Nov 01, 2007 12:53 am

Not too badly in the league, so we can take heart from drawing with Birmingham, a Spurs side in absoloute turmoil both at Anfield can we? And being 6 points behind the leaders by the end of October isn't too bad?
I won't bother with the FA cup comment as I take that was your idea of a joke

And last year I thought Kuyt was useless, the fella couldn't control a bag of cement. He's just another example of Liverpool Football Club paying twice the ammount we should of for a player.

by **Toffeehater** » Thu Nov 01, 2007 3:28 am

Ciggy wrote:
metalhead wrote:Dirk Kuyt in my eyes is an excellent squad player who brings depth to the team and work rate.

Not a headless chicken in sight.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZRr36ihAnZU

Well at least he scored when it really mattered , in the derby against porto and also after watching the video by ciggy , i've come to a conclusion that kuyt is the pest penalty taker since henry in the league

by **Toffeehater** » Thu Nov 01, 2007 3:28 am

metalhead wrote:
Ciggy wrote:
metalhead wrote:Dirk Kuyt in my eyes is an excellent squad player who brings depth to the team and work rate.

Not a headless chicken in sight.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZRr36ihAnZU

Go back to the Derby game and go back to other games (i.e newcastle away last season) and see how many chances Kuyt missed that should have gone in. A quality striker doesn't miss easy chances ( rarely, when having a bad day) and unfortunately kuyt does.

Well at least he scored when it really mattered , in the derby against porto and also after watching the video by ciggy , i've come to a conclusion that kuyt is the pest penalty taker since henry in the league

by **god_bless_john_houlding** » Thu Nov 01, 2007 4:18 pm

Toffeehater wrote:
metalhead wrote:
Ciggy wrote:
metalhead wrote:Dirk Kuyt in my eyes is an excellent squad player who brings depth to the team and work rate.

Not a headless chicken in sight.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZRr36ihAnZU

Go back to the Derby game and go back to other games (i.e newcastle away last season) and see how many chances Kuyt missed that should have gone in. A quality striker doesn't miss easy chances ( rarely, when having a bad day) and unfortunately kuyt does.

Well at least he scored when it really mattered , in the derby against porto and also after watching the video by ciggy , i've come to a conclusion that kuyt is the pest penalty taker since henry in the league

I don't remember Kuyt winning us the game against Arsenal. or Chelsea, or Beskitas, or Marsielle. So because he scores now and then they're the only game that matter. Billhooks. Every game in a football season matters and over the corse of a season Kuyt doesn't score enough which I could understand if he contributed more to the side but he doesn't do that either. So come January I'd like to see him sold, but I'd be surprised if we even got half the money we spent on him back.

by **oakton** » Thu Nov 01, 2007 4:37 pm

dawson99 wrote:its just funny that all 4 strikers are struggling... thats all im saying. yes, i do think torres is struggling. veronin, now he is not good enough. crouch hasnt got the right attitude, but id keep kuyt, but im the ying to your yang(??) i like the lad

Let's just say Rafa's game plan/tactics are not striker-friendly. All of our strikers played under Rafa struggled, fowler, cisse, morientes, bellamy etc, and now with these 4 current strikers.
What do you expect any strikers to do when the ball is hoof up to their chest or above head level at around 20-30 yards out with an direct opponent right behind you. It's way too far out to do a header for a goal so they have to pass back.
I hate this game plan and it doesn't work.

by **god_bless_john_houlding** » Fri Nov 02, 2007 2:38 am

Liverpool should revert to the tried and tested pass and move game. It's worked so well for us over the years. United and Arsenal both play fluenet football and they're one and two in the league. Pass and move may also give us the chance to see the best of Kuyt because he'll be able to drop deep and link up by playing balls through for Gerrard bombing on from midfield rather than him on the half way line. Also if in a particular game passing and moving isn't working with Crouch we always have the option of going long or with Torres we have the option of getting in behind the back 4 with his pace. But the current tactics aren't working so lets get back to basic football. As the great man said "football is simple, it's people who make it complicated."

by **StevieL** » Fri Nov 02, 2007 8:53 am

Its easier said then done to suddenly change to a pass/move game. It'll prolli do us more harm then good, if you look at the short term.

Kuyt imo is just isnt good enough. Sure his work rate is hectic, but half the time he's just running around like a headless chicken.

Voronin > Kuyt.

Liverpool FC Forum

DIRK KUYT - Official Thread

Who is online