Liverpool FC Forum

by **woof woof !** » Tue Oct 30, 2007 10:55 am

Leonmc0708 wrote:
woof woof ! wrote:
Leonmc0708 wrote:Many people thought this was the season we would push on, (I thought we would get closer persoanlly) so until this season we CAN NOT win the league how can anyone pass judgement ?

At the start of the season loads of people including me thought that for the first time in a very long time we had a realistic chance of winning the premiership. We got off to a flyer and the optomism seemed well founded . Since then however the wheels have come off and with the latest injuries to hit the squad we'll be lucky to remain in contention, we may well find ourselves struggling just to secure a top four finish.

A key season for Rafa, one that could very well define both his and LFC's future. Given the investment made in Rafa by the new owners I doubt that failure to win the league this season would prompt them to seek an alternative manager. If we pick up any kind of trophy and finish in the top four I'm convinced Rafa will still be leading us at the start of the next season, and I wouldn't have a problem with that (although he sometimes drives me nuts with his team selection ). But as has been said by many, judge the man (if you must) at the end of the season, as will the owners , not one third of the way into it .

Exactly the reasons you have mentioned are why we cant pass judgement now.

Look at the players he has lost already this season. Gerrard for approx 3 weeks, Carragher for 3 weeks, Torres for 6 weeks, Alonso for 6 weeks and Agger for 5 weeks.

The season is only 13 weeks old.

I'm agreeing with you Leon, unusual I know, but there you have it.

by **Leonmc0708** » Tue Oct 30, 2007 11:25 am

woof woof ! wrote:
Leonmc0708 wrote:
woof woof ! wrote:
Leonmc0708 wrote:Many people thought this was the season we would push on, (I thought we would get closer persoanlly) so until this season we CAN NOT win the league how can anyone pass judgement ?

At the start of the season loads of people including me thought that for the first time in a very long time we had a realistic chance of winning the premiership. We got off to a flyer and the optomism seemed well founded . Since then however the wheels have come off and with the latest injuries to hit the squad we'll be lucky to remain in contention, we may well find ourselves struggling just to secure a top four finish.

A key season for Rafa, one that could very well define both his and LFC's future. Given the investment made in Rafa by the new owners I doubt that failure to win the league this season would prompt them to seek an alternative manager. If we pick up any kind of trophy and finish in the top four I'm convinced Rafa will still be leading us at the start of the next season, and I wouldn't have a problem with that (although he sometimes drives me nuts with his team selection ). But as has been said by many, judge the man (if you must) at the end of the season, as will the owners , not one third of the way into it .

Exactly the reasons you have mentioned are why we cant pass judgement now.

Look at the players he has lost already this season. Gerrard for approx 3 weeks, Carragher for 3 weeks, Torres for 6 weeks, Alonso for 6 weeks and Agger for 5 weeks.

The season is only 13 weeks old.

I'm agreeing with you Leon, unusual I know, but there you have it.

Whats the catch ?

by **bigmick** » Tue Oct 30, 2007 11:40 am

The thing is though surely a directional issue, and that can't be decided simply by looking at the points total when the season finishes. Somebody pulled me up on this before and told me to stop talking b0ll0cks and they were quite right. If we are in contention until the final three weeks and then lose a vital game, we may take our foot off the pedal and lose the last three games which would distort the final position relative to the winners, who may have won it with six games to go and gone on holiday anyway.

I think it is nigh on a certainty that we will finish in the top four, and somewhere between none and eighteen points or so of the winners (and lets not forget that at this stage, we could still win it ourselves). Thats why I keep going on about the manner of the way we approach the season.

If for instance we finished in fourth place, fourteen points off the top. Man Utd win it by five points from Arsenal, who in turn are four points ahead of Chelsea then it's five back to us and a big gap to Tottenham who run on through beaten horses to get a UEFA spot. Say we win the FA Cup but Rafa quite rightly fields a weakened team in the UEFA and we make it to the quarters. Do you give him another season? What are the considerations before you carry on and make your decision? Do you make the judgement that as we are closer, improvement is being made and put the gap down to the injuries?

Well my point remains this. Can we challenge under Rafa in the following season, do you give him a wodge of cash and let him sign another Torres? The answer for me is yes, as long as he undertakes to play the fecker(s) as much as is possible. If he undertakes (behind closed doors of course, I don't expect a road to Damascus style seeing the light in public) to try and find a team which will enable us to mount a challenge, then whether we are third, fourth or whatever and however far away, I'd give him the chance and the backing he deserves. If however he maintains at the end of the season that these are to be his methods come what may, and that he has absolutely no intention of redcuing the sheer volume of changes to the first team, then I'd shake hands and call it quits.

by **Leonmc0708** » Tue Oct 30, 2007 11:46 am

bigmick wrote:If for instance we finished in fourth place, fourteen points off the top. Man Utd win it by five points from Arsenal, who in turn are four points ahead of Chelsea then it's five back to us and a big gap to Tottenham who run on through beaten horses to get a UEFA spot. Say we win the FA Cup but Rafa quite rightly fields a weakened team in the UEFA and we make it to the quarters. Do you give him another season? What are the considerations before you carry on and make your decision? Do you make the judgement that as we are closer, improvement is being made and put the gap down to the injuries?

Here is a crazy idea.

Why dont we see wether all these if's but's and maybe's come off before passing jusdgement based on if's but's and (my personal favouite) maybe's ?

by **bigmick** » Tue Oct 30, 2007 11:55 am

Leonmc0708 wrote:Here is a crazy idea.

Why dont we see wether all these if's but's and maybe's come off before passing jusdgement based on if's but's and (my personal favouite) maybe's ?

I think you've missed my point Leon, or more likely I didn't make it clear. You see my point on this particular issue is it doesn't really matter whether we finish ten points off the top or twenty, whether we are third or fourth. I just think that given the level of injuries we have sustained, it may be a little unfair on the manager to say as many of us have that unless we seriously challenge for the title then questions have to be asked of him.

Sure it's fair to ask questions, but I'm simply throwing a scenario out there which hand on heart is about how I think it'll pan out, and conclusions would be very difficult to draw from. My point is simply that in those circumstances or anything similar, it won't just be about a total number of points, it'll be about a direction.

The other scenario of course, the other "IF" is that we do actually launch a serious title challenge, even with the rotation and then I along with most people who have a view have to accept we called it totally wrong.

by **red37** » Tue Oct 30, 2007 12:02 pm

bigmick wrote:You see my point on this particular issue is it doesn't really matter whether we finish ten points off the top or twenty, whether we are third or fourth.

Taken out of the context of the rest of the post and duly noted; A fair few would have been happy at the start of this season, had you offered the eventual shortfall of 10 points off the title winners over the similar deficit last season which left the horizon completely out of sight..

by **redtrader74** » Tue Oct 30, 2007 12:20 pm

bigmick wrote:The other scenario of course, the other "IF" is that we do actually launch a serious title challenge, even with the rotation and then I along with most people who have a view have to accept we called it totally wrong.

You might Mick, but in the scenario you describe i can already see the posts of 'IFITHADNOTBEENFORROTATION......' :;):

by **Judge** » Tue Oct 30, 2007 12:23 pm

bigmick wrote:The thing is though surely a directional issue

not so long ago it was a ROTATIONAL issue

make your mind up mick

by **Big Niall** » Tue Oct 30, 2007 12:23 pm

I agree that we should pass judgement at the end of the season. I do not think he has what it takes to win the league (which must be his goal) but at the end of the season he'll have had four years to do so - which is enough time to judge whether we are getting closer to Manure,Chelsea and Arsenal. I don't think the gap is getting closer plus I don't think we play good football as Manure and Arsenal do.

The verdict will be in may though.

by **Sabre** » Tue Oct 30, 2007 12:58 pm

redtrader74 wrote:
bigmick wrote:The other scenario of course, the other "IF" is that we do actually launch a serious title challenge, even with the rotation and then I along with most people who have a view have to accept we called it totally wrong.

You might Mick, but in the scenario you describe i can already see the posts of 'IFITHADNOTBEENFORROTATION......'

Not so sure of that, I think the most likely explanation if we win the league will be "luck" or "how good is gerrard", that's the explanation you get when you ask why we have played 2 continental finals

Bigmick is right, he has put possible scenarios, and that's not a bad thing, just discussing scenarios. And the overall debate was not pointless, now after doing this exercise of hypothetical speculation I know more or less where each one stands.

The debate also has proven that "Rafa cannot be criticised" is a myth, 13 + pages of criticism, and even the staunchiest Rafa believers prompted to post a limit of patience proves it. Rafa cannot only be criticised, but he has the clock running aswell. I hope that point is proved.

by **Reg** » Tue Oct 30, 2007 1:15 pm

I am 100% pro-Rafa and I supported Ged until he finally lost credibility (but not until he truely arrived at that point, not at the first glitch) but Sabre is right, even the level-heads are beginning to get a bit miffed at the way things have gone in the past few weeks.

by **redtrader74** » Tue Oct 30, 2007 1:26 pm

Reg wrote:I am 100% pro-Rafa and I supported Ged until he finally lost credibility (but not until he truely arrived at that point, not at the first glitch) but Sabre is right, even the level-heads are beginning to get a bit miffed at the way things have gone in the past few weeks.

I think everyone has always been open to criticising Rafa when they believe its warranted, its the overt criticism and placing of blame entirely on one facet of his management that has polarised opinion. Asking for his head after 10 games, not being patient when this is the first season that Rafa has probably got close to the team he wanted....this kind of kneejerk reaction gets a lot of people annoyed.

by **Leonmc0708** » Tue Oct 30, 2007 1:29 pm

redtrader74 wrote:
Reg wrote:I am 100% pro-Rafa and I supported Ged until he finally lost credibility (but not until he truely arrived at that point, not at the first glitch) but Sabre is right, even the level-heads are beginning to get a bit miffed at the way things have gone in the past few weeks.

I think everyone has always been open to criticising Rafa when they believe its warranted, its the overt criticism and placing of blame entirely on one facet of his management that has polarised opinion. Asking for his head after 10 games, not being patient when this is the first season that Rafa has probably got close to the team he wanted....this kind of kneejerk reaction gets a lot of people annoyed.

Agreed.

The way that the adulation is for the players and the criticism is for the manager is at times baffling.

by **112-1077774096** » Tue Oct 30, 2007 1:40 pm

if an orchestra is sh*t then you blame the conductor for choosing the wrong musicians, if a company fails then you blame the manager for poor management. the reason we blame these people is that its their responsibility to make things work.

i have a question, can any of you honestly say, hand on heart that you thin we play good football, it's a simple yes or no answer, in fact i will start a poll

by **redtrader74** » Tue Oct 30, 2007 1:45 pm

peewee wrote:if an orchestra is sh*t then you blame the conductor for choosing the wrong musicians, if a company fails then you blame the manager for poor management. the reason we blame these people is that its their responsibility to make things work.

i have a question, can any of you honestly say, hand on heart that you thin we play good football, it's a simple yes or no answer, in fact i will start a poll

The polls pointless, the result of it right now will say No, had you asked after the Derby game, when we had played well previous to it aswell, the result would probably be a amjority Yes.

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