Liverpool FC Forum

by **account deleted by request** » Mon Oct 29, 2007 4:06 am

Maybe we need a fitness coach :laugh:

by **Bad Bob** » Mon Oct 29, 2007 4:09 am

bigmick wrote:I think from here on in it's best to take stock, try and get something going and build a team to challenge in the near future. Some tough decisions need to be made about one or two of the players, and some serious scouting needs to be done in order to strengthen the first team. I'm not being revolutionary here when I say that we are almost certainly going to need at least two new front players if Crocuh is sold (and I'd have a shot at picking one up in January, give him a few months to bed in before next season etc), as well as at least one, maybe two wide men and at least one maybe centre halves. The full-backs will also need a look, so clearly there is much work to be done.

Before anybody wades into me with all guns blazing, I'm not talking about replacing the whole team on the back of one draw. I am though talking about the ethos of the way we have approached this season sofar. Clearly (well it's clear to me anyway and I'd be interested to hear if anybodies view is different) the rotational selection policy has not done us any discernable favours, (I suppose there is the chance that Alonso, Pennant and Torres will be fresh later in the season but thats more likely due to the fact they have been recovering from injury than anything else I would have thought). So in a nutshell, going forward we have to look seriously at that policy if we are to progress in my view. It's probably fair to say also that compared to the rest of the squad we are over-endowed somewhat with central midfielders and this will probably have to be looked at. Without wanting to open old wounds, I would advocate selling any of our central midfielders bar Gerrard if that really was the only way to finance a deal for a really top quality forward.

So like I say, there are hard decisions to be made. Rafa can make them, so lets use the rest of this season to really get ready for a challenge next campaign.

Mick, here's what I wrote in Owzat's "Player by Player" thread the other day. It anticipated, I dare say, what you've said above about the need to take a hard look at our squad. Granted, a lot of the lads are playing someway short of the form they are capable of but that doesn't change the fact that we have too many "squad" players at the moment and precious few proper "first teamers." Anyway, this is what I said:

---------------
I didn't bother with "star" players because to me, that's just as much to do with form as it is to do with what a player has in his locker. On ability, Gerrard's a star player but has he been playing like a star player much this season? It's a bit of a weird label for me and I don't think it's needed for what the thread is trying to do, so I've omitted it. Likewise, "below par" is about form rather than ability and so I've not included that either. My list then, is about which players are good enough to start every game, which players are squad players (selected according to form) and which players probably need to go, based on what they are capable of rather on their current form.

Reina - 1st team
Itandje - Squad (not seen enough so I gave him the benefit of the doubt)

Agger - 1st team
Carragher - 1st team
Hyypia - Squad
Arbeloa - Squad
Finnan - Squad (borderline call here for me but is starting to show signs of decline and should probably be replaced sooner rather than later to avoid what we are seeing with Sami)
Riise - Squad
Aurelio - Squad

Gerrard - 1st Team
Alonso - 1st Team
Lucas - Squad
Mascherano - 1st Team
Sissoko - Squad
Kewell - 1st Team
Leto - Offload
Pennant - Squad
Babel - Squad
Benayoun - Squad

Torres - 1st Team
Kuyt - Squad
Voronin - Squad (just)
Crouch - Squad

The true first-teamers are players that, despite having a bad game now and then, lift the level of the team every time they take the pitch and set the tone for their teammates.

Conversely, squad players are good enough to get a run of games in the first team and contribute but that's if they are playing near their peak and are working with players around them who are also near the top of their game.

All top teams are made up of both core first-teamers and a periphery of squad players who move in and out of the side as form and fitness dictate (not necessarily at the rotation rate that Rafa employs, I hasten to add). As has been said many times, you need both in your team: 11 superstars will not necessarily make for a good team.

But, a glance at my list will indicate that I think we have an awful lot of squad players at the moment. Some, like Lucas and Babel, are prospects that could become proper first-teamers over time. Others, like Benayoun, Aurelio, Pennant and Arbeloa, are handy lads to have on hand because of their versatility and skills. Still others, like Hyypia and Finnan, are veteran campaigners in decline--they still have a good deal to offer but may no longer be up for the week-to-week grind. And, finally, there are players, such as Kuyt, Crouch, Voronin, Sissoko and Riise, who offer a lot of graft and heart but who seem to be moving further and further away from the level we need at Liverpool Football Club.

So, our goal should be to replace many of these squad players (especially the last few named) with players who are at first-team level or who at least can be knocking on that door very soon. Until we do, however, our goal is to make ourselves hard to beat once more and to hope that we can find some sort of fluency by which our true-first teamers start to stamp their authority on matches once more and by which some of our squad players start to at least look the part of Liverpool players on the pitch.

by **bigmick** » Mon Oct 29, 2007 4:09 am

It (playing Torres) certainly puts into stark perspective the decison to "rest" him in earlier matches this season. I think though that when a player is carrying an injury, some carry them better than others. I wouldn't have thought Xabi was fit when we played Juve away a couple of years back but you wouldn't have known, whereas yesterday Torres didn't seem to have the confidence in his physical wellbeing to properly go for it.

In a nutshell though, I think Rafa did the right thing in playing them both, it wasn't time for fecking about. Similarly, I think some are being unkind about his team selection on this occasion. I don't think for instance for one minute that the manager intended Voronin and Kuyt to play as wide men. My feeling is that the lack of mobility of torres and the excellence of Arsenal meant that our intended 4-3-3, or even 3-4-3 when Riise joined the play, very quickly was pushed back into a 4-5-1 and then it didn't look good. I really don't think the manager set up like that.

Another thing which I'm surprised nobody has mentioned is our goal and the feeling it was very likely a good spot by the coaching staff. I suppose it is possible that Gerrard just decided to blast it as hard as he could, straight into the wall but I don't think so. My feeling is that as Kuyt (I think) tracks right to left accross the wall and a couple of blockers peel a bit, Gerrard hits the space and I'd be surprised if they hadn't worked on it. Arsenal won't get caught with their pants down again but no matter, it was a good spot by whoever on the coaching staff was charged with the task of studying their defensive set-up. It may even have been the manager himself but whoever it was deserves credit.

by **Bad Bob** » Mon Oct 29, 2007 4:17 am

bigmick wrote:Similarly, I think some are being unkind about his team selection on this occasion. I don't think for instance for one minute that the manager intended Voronin and Kuyt to play as wide men. My feeling is that the lack of mobility of torres and the excellence of Arsenal meant that our intended 4-3-3, or even 3-4-3 when Riise joined the play, very quickly was pushed back into a 4-5-1 and then it didn't look good. I really don't think the manager set up like that.

(God, this role reversal stuff is weird!

) Perhaps, mate, but we're talking about a rampant Arsenal team playing a struggling Liverpool team. We had to expect that, with their pace and passing, they would pin us back quite a bit--even at Anfield--so I think we would have been better off having Babel and Benayoun in those positions.

by **bigmick** » Mon Oct 29, 2007 4:22 am

I did read the original Bob and it's fair to say I agree with just about every word and mine is a slightly lazier way of saying the same thing.
I would add though that the rotation has made it that much more difficult for players to elevate themselves into the full-on first teamer bracket. Although I've advocated having a long hard look at the squad, it is quite possible that we may have a very decent team just waiting to get out already at the club. If for instance everybody was fit and Rafa went with Reina, Finnan, Carra, Agger, Arbeloa, Gerrard (on the right) , Mash, Alonso, Babel, Torres and Crouch we'd probably win a lot more than we'd lose I reckon. Who knows, by now and after ten games, Babel maybe the first name on the team sheet and in the running for young player of the year. Similarly Lucas clearly has much ability and a regualr run of games could see him emerge too.

Whichever way we look at it though, to progress with either the players we currently have or some new ones, we are going to have to at some point pick a core of a settled team. I said in the match thread yesterday that one of the few bright spots was that I would no longer have to give a definition of fluency, rhythm and cohesion because all anyone had to do was watch how our opponents played. Now I'd be interested to hear whether anybody believes that you could play that brand of football while making seventy odd changes to the starting line up in fifteen games (be they forced rotations, restings, tactical switches to allow for teams defending deep or whatever else people call them). I'd be interested to hear, but nobody will be surprised to hear that I think it would be a physical impossibility.

by **account deleted by request** » Mon Oct 29, 2007 4:25 am

Even though Crouch had a decent game (in my opinion) when he came on, I wonder if we wouldn't have been better served by throwing Babel up front, if not to score a goal maybe just to pin Arsenals defence back a bit.

With Crouch, Voronin and Kuyt the Arsenal Defence had free reign to advance at will, with only Gerrard having the pace to really threaten them.

by **Espionage** » Mon Oct 29, 2007 4:30 am

A good draw overall.

Good to see Gerrard, Carragher and Mascherano playing well. Masch was an absolute beast yesterday and he was fantastic at reading and breaking up the play. I was also really impressed in Crouch, I think that he has given himself the best possible chance to force his way back into the first team. He looked really sharp.

by **Bad Bob** » Mon Oct 29, 2007 4:32 am

bigmick wrote:I did read the original Bob and it's fair to say I agree with just about every word and mine is a slightly lazier way of saying the same thing.
I would add though that the rotation has made it that much more difficult for players to elevate themselves into the full-on first teamer bracket. Although I've advocated having a long hard look at the squad, it is quite possible that we may have a very decent team just waiting to get out already at the club. If for instance everybody was fit and Rafa went with Reina, Finnan, Carra, Agger, Arbeloa, Gerrard (on the right) , Mash, Alonso, Babel, Torres and Crouch we'd probably win a lot more than we'd lose I reckon. Who knows, by now and after ten games, Babel maybe the first name on the team sheet and in the running for young player of the year. Similarly Lucas clearly has much ability and a regualr run of games could see him emerge too.

Whichever way we look at it though, to progress with either the players we currently have or some new ones, we are going to have to at some point pick a core of a settled team. I said in the match thread yesterday that one of the few bright spots was that I would no longer have to give a definition of fluency, rhythm and cohesion because all anyone had to do was watch how our opponents played. Now I'd be interested to hear whether anybody believes that you could play that brand of football while making seventy odd changes to the starting line up in fifteen games (be they forced rotations, restings, tactical switches to allow for teams defending deep or whatever else people call them). I'd be interested to hear, but nobody will be surprised to hear that I think it would be a physical impossibility.

That's a good 11, mate, and I wish we had players fit to try it (throw Kewell in the mix as well, for that matter). As for rotation and bringing those young players through to the first team, I think you have a point. Babel is clearly the case study for this: is he good enough? Is he not? Who knows because he only gets a few games and thus no opportunity to find some form.

As for playing like Arsenal, I think that has much more to do with the manager's preferred style/system of play than does rotation, TBH, but that's a question for another time, as I'm off to bed...

by **Bad Bob** » Mon Oct 29, 2007 4:33 am

s@int wrote:Even though Crouch had a decent game (in my opinion) when he came on, I wonder if we wouldn't have been better served by throwing Babel up front, if not to score a goal maybe just to pin Arsenals defence back a bit.

With Crouch, Voronin and Kuyt the Arsenal Defence had free reign to advance at will, with only Gerrard having the pace to really threaten them.

Toure and Gallas both advanced to the edge of our area during that match, mate, so you've definitely got a point.

by **bigmick** » Mon Oct 29, 2007 4:34 am

Bad Bob wrote:(God, this role reversal stuff is weird! ) Perhaps, mate, but we're talking about a rampant Arsenal team playing a struggling Liverpool team. We had to expect that, with their pace and passing, they would pin us back quite a bit--even at Anfield--so I think we would have been better off having Babel and Benayoun in those positions.

I think the feeling probably was Bob that if we could get away with our three strikers staying uppish, we could pin their full-backs back and not allow our three in midfield to get exposed. The full-backs joining in the attack is integral to their play so it was a fair enough call, as was the instruction which had clearly been given to Gerrard to prevent Toure from marauding forward with the ball, which he can do with great effect.

Where it went pear shaped of course is Arsenal went with five in the centre, with the excellent Hleb and the athletic Ebouie hugging the lines and stretching the play. What with Rosicky floating about in between, Flamini tidying up and the brilliance of Fabregas they were able to pick their way around us and the two front lads had no choice but to drop in. I would like to have seen Finnan and Riise push in to engage the midfileders more, instead of being content to make a line of four to defend against Adebayor. My suspicion is that if Arsenal set up similar against man Utd next week you will see the Man Utd full-backs nudging up and they will press the play much better and more effectively than we did.

by **66-1112520797** » Mon Oct 29, 2007 4:54 am

I've just watched the match, we're a bit slow down under.

I have no qualms with the result, no qualms with the performance and no qualms with the formation.

Going into this game with confidence as low as it is/was I dont blame Rafa for playing what was a 451, 433 or a 4231 formation, call it what you like.

Arsenal are in fantastic form and to me even at home that formation IMO should of been used. I've read before hand a few people say we were lucky to get a point. I disagree completely, while Arsenal had good possesion and playing the way they were, we IMHO looked organised and compact at the back.

It was a fair result I feel, but Arsenal for all their great possesion and apart from a couple of clear cut opportunities weren exactly slicing us apart. Mascha my MotM and Carra too were immense in prevailing this from happening. Almost as equally to I felt Xabi had a decent game, and was starting to impose his game more in the second half.

I'm not going to lambast Rafa or the players today, because they dont deserve it, I actually felt sorry for Rafa when Arsenal scored, the look on his face. We did hold out for a while and he looked expectadly upset.

One thing I will ask though, well maybe two things ans surely this has been said already. Voronin and Kuyt ?
The only possible thought I can come up with, why these two played where they did, is because Rafa probably felt before the game that we'd control the game a little bit more than we did, so going forward that formation reverted to a 4-3-3. It never happened, though. As we took an early goal lead in the first half it was pretty much 'all hands on pump' so to speak. We were then being pinned back and Kuyt and Voronin both played as midfielders down either flank.

What happened after that, when our centre halves were in possesion and hussled they'd pump the ole long ball up, to which an unfit Torres had no chance. The ball never stuck, the possesion given away, and the Arsenal build up play began.

Second half stil no change, Voronin looks way out of his depth for me, his touch and control looks s.hit to be blunt. Kuyt as ever looks ineffective, and how the hell both these players get picked before Crouch, for me is an utter f.ucking joke. The big man impressed me when he came on, he did more in 45 mins than what both Kuyt and Voronin together did in the amount of time they were on the pitch.

People can argue that, it isnt either Voronin and Kuyts better position which is true, but striking certainly isnt Kuyts either. well neither of them should be picked there then. We have Babel who Rafa spent 11 million on, and his style would of been perfect to play.

So I can understand the formation, and even possibly the the line-up, like I said Rafa may of not expected us to see so little of the ball, hense why I think he played them, so the attack could switch to a three. But surely 5 mins even 10 mins into the second half, when Arsenal were only ever going to commit more men going forward looking for the equalliser, Babel should of been brought on. Neither Voronin and Kuyt coming from deep have the pace to get up and help Crouch out, although the big man can make the ball stick. Ryan babel though would of got foward in support, and his directness and his game would of caused more of a threat that the other two follys'.

The Arbeloa substitution was a bit strange, again I see the reasoning behind it though. Bringing him on in a game of that magnitude and tempo was a little escentrick (sp)? That kinda reminded me when he gave Gonzalez his first full debut at Old Trafford last season, he just threw him in at the deep end. Although Arbeloa has played this season, he hasnt as a DMC.

Its easy to say in hindsight, but maybe Rafa should of dropped Gerrard back, after the misfortunate injury to Xabi. By that time Benayoun was already on, but Babel could of taken Gerrards role with the hapless Kuyt out on the right doing what he does best ..... Looking ugly and running around

Bit harsh, but still true.

The gameplan was there, the players played to it, and did that for 80 mins. I was more frustrated at the fact we couldnt hold on, than the fact some posters on here think we were lucky to draw, I just didnt see it like that.

Nevermind, unbeaten hey, happy clappy chaps ?

by **66-1112520797** » Mon Oct 29, 2007 4:56 am

By playing Alonso and Torres it seems to me rafa was playing to the media

I think thats one thing we can safely say Rafa doesnt do, and thats "play to the media".

It was a risk playing the pair of them, but IMO a risk that had to be taken, felt sorry for Torres though he had no support what so ever. And feel sorry for Xabi, because of that injury .

by **akumaface** » Mon Oct 29, 2007 5:03 am

I felt we were lucky to get the point tonight. It was a spirited game but I think we were overwhelmed by the gunner's passing as well as the space they have. Our endurance and speed was not as good as Wenger's team. I think in general, Arsenal's player were much better in holding the ball as any one of their 11 can do this with ease. They also have very good support and option to pass rather than us just kicking the ball high and forward. Once we get a habit of doing this, our players stopped running and gave no support to our forwards. Also, the awareness of our player was not good enough as it felt like they were strangers. I thought they were suppose to have better chemistry than that as they practice with the same people everyday. I tried not to question Rafa's selection but it seems he is too stubborn to admit his selection sometimes is dead wrong. It would make more sense to put Babel or Benayuan on the left flank. If we have no choice, then i understand. But with Babel, Arsenal would need to worry Babel speed and will probably stay back a little. As for Kuyt, he works very hard but it seems he is becoming less and less effective and not able to do anything with significance. Anyway, if we keep playing the best and same 11 for a period of time, we should see a significance improvement in our performance. If we keep making this stupid lineup changes, our silverware chance would be slim to none this year.

by **66-1112520797** » Mon Oct 29, 2007 5:05 am

Bad Bob wrote:
bigmick wrote:Similarly, I think some are being unkind about his team selection on this occasion. I don't think for instance for one minute that the manager intended Voronin and Kuyt to play as wide men. My feeling is that the lack of mobility of torres and the excellence of Arsenal meant that our intended 4-3-3, or even 3-4-3 when Riise joined the play, very quickly was pushed back into a 4-5-1 and then it didn't look good. I really don't think the manager set up like that.

(God, this role reversal stuff is weird! ) Perhaps, mate, but we're talking about a[B] rampant Arsenal team playing a struggling Liverpool team. We had to expect that, with their pace and passing [/B ], they would pin us back quite a bit--even at Anfield--so I think we would have been better off having Babel and Benayoun in those positions.

Not at Anfield Bob, its almost as rare as rocking horse s.hit for us to be (hesitantly saying) out manoeurved at Anfield.

Even still Bob just to pick you up on the Babel Benayoun start, and as your saying we should of expected the 'onslaught' of the football Arsenal play, then it can be argued that both Kuyt and Voronin defend pretty well as forwards and are more than willing, well than Babel anyway to get back and put the work, Benayoun does but its not his forte.

Striking isnt Kuyts, maybe both him and Voronin would be better defenders than they are striekrs.

But like I said, I definately would of brought Babel on in the second half for either Voronin or Kuyt I think his pace on the counter could of caused problems.

by **maguskwt** » Mon Oct 29, 2007 5:08 am

This thread was dominated by unrealistic posters in the beginning (except for ivor)... fortunately the more sensible posters took it back in the second half...

pls... you wanna go all out attack on arsenal? give me a break.... we will get slaughtered... just like we slaughtered them 4-1 last season... this time we are the off-form team and they are the on-form team and anyone who doesn't see that is clearly lacking in some football knowledge.

The fact is us and arsenal are just two very different teams coached under two different philosophies... we will never learn to move and pass like them instantly simply because we were not trained like that and our personnel is also not suited completely for that. Arsenal has been trying to play like this since last season using almost the same personnel. They didn't succeed last season but they're surely clickling now and it looks like on their day they can run anybody off the park, even man united. It will be interesting to see the match between them next week.

IMO the way we're set up, we're more like a tactical team, than a technical team (like arsenal). What we need to do more is to keep the ball better which we're not doing well at the moment and wait patiently for openings. You can clearly see that when alonso did this we were able to control the game much better in the second half and arsenal was the one that had to do abit of chasing. Unfortunately he got injured again and we lost control again. It was a correct decision for rafa to try to contain arsenal and it showed when we were leading 1-0 for 80 mins. If alonso didn't get injured again we could very possibly have won it.

You know I kinda agree with rafa's comments a few days back "sometimes we have to play with brains and not just the heart"... it applies to forum postings as well...

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