Liverpool FC Forum

by **112-1077774096** » Thu Oct 25, 2007 1:52 pm

the dreaded vote of confidence

Liverpool co-owner Tom Hicks insists Rafael Benitez still has the full backing of the club's hierarchy and has dismissed criticism of the Spaniard's rotation policy.

Benitez has been criticised for his selective use of summer signing Fernando Torres so far this season and Tuesday's 2-1 defeat by Besiktas left them bottom of their Champions League group.

But Hicks, who owns the club with fellow American George Gillett, told Sky Sports News: "We back Rafa. He's the right manager.

"Rafa's rotation has been his policy for three years.

"Rafa's ability to coach and manage in the Champions League should be unquestioned.

"We had a disappointing loss because we got outplayed by the Turks.

"I think we have our work cut out, but yes we can qualify. We have to win the next three games."

at least hicks has the balls to admit we were outplayed

by **dawson99** » Thu Oct 25, 2007 1:57 pm

where are we at?

6 points behind arsenal, 3 behind the mancs but a game in hand over them.

why?
a few stupid losses, some injuries and some rotation questions.

will we come good? fuk yeah.

by **josip84** » Thu Oct 25, 2007 2:04 pm

peewee wrote:"We had a disappointing loss because we got outplayed by the Turks.", Hicks said.
at least hicks has the balls to admit we were outplayed

LFC were outplayed by Besiktas exactly in the same way as they were outplayed by Marseille 3 weeks ago, and exactly in the same way as they were outplayed by Porto shortly before.
Evidence accumulates : LFC do not take CL seriously this season. LFC show constant offhandedness in the European Competition. LFC prove one-track-minded : the Premiership title, and nothing else.
IMHO, a terrible strategic mistake in terms of season's objectives.
But I know a lot of LFC fans disagree with me.

by **112-1077774096** » Thu Oct 25, 2007 2:08 pm

josip84 wrote:LFC prove one-track-minded : the Premiership title, and nothing else.

well we seem to be doing a good job of disguising that mate judging by the results and performances for the past month.

i don't think we are taking any tournament lightly, we are just not good enough

by **bigxchris** » Thu Oct 25, 2007 2:09 pm

josip84 wrote:
peewee wrote:"We had a disappointing loss because we got outplayed by the Turks.", Hicks said.
at least hicks has the balls to admit we were outplayed

LFC were outplayed by Besiktas exactly in the same way as they were outplayed by Marseille 3 weeks ago, and exactly in the same way as they were outplayed by Porto shortly before.
Evidence accumulates : LFC do not take CL seriously this season. LFC show constant offhandedness in the European Competition. LFC prove one-track-minded : the Premiership title, and nothing else.
IMHO, a terrible strategic mistake in terms of season's objectives.
But I know a lot of LFC fans disagree with me.

That does not make sence we field a good team and get out played, so we dont care about the cup?

by **Bad Bob** » Thu Oct 25, 2007 2:11 pm

josip84 wrote:
peewee wrote:"We had a disappointing loss because we got outplayed by the Turks.", Hicks said.
at least hicks has the balls to admit we were outplayed

LFC were outplayed by Besiktas exactly in the same way as they were outplayed by Marseille 3 weeks ago, and exactly in the same way as they were outplayed by Porto shortly before.
Evidence accumulates : LFC do not take CL seriously this season. LFC show constant offhandedness in the European Competition. LFC prove one-track-minded : the Premiership title, and nothing else.
IMHO, a terrible strategic mistake in terms of season's objectives.
But I know a lot of LFC fans disagree with me.

A couple of questions for you:

1) What "evidence" suggests to you that we're not taking the CL seriously this season? Give us details.

2) Now, let's say you're right for a second about our offhandedness for the sake of argument. Why are you so bothered by this? I would think it might benefit Marseilles to have a distracted Liverpool in their group. You should be happy to see us focus on the league, surely?

by **Sabre** » Thu Oct 25, 2007 2:13 pm

peewee wrote:the dreaded vote of confidence

Liverpool co-owner Tom Hicks insists Rafael Benitez still has the full backing of the club's hierarchy and has dismissed criticism of the Spaniard's rotation policy.

Benitez has been criticised for his selective use of summer signing Fernando Torres so far this season and Tuesday's 2-1 defeat by Besiktas left them bottom of their Champions League group.

But Hicks, who owns the club with fellow American George Gillett, told Sky Sports News: "We back Rafa. He's the right manager.

"Rafa's rotation has been his policy for three years.

"Rafa's ability to coach and manage in the Champions League should be unquestioned.

"We had a disappointing loss because we got outplayed by the Turks.

"I think we have our work cut out, but yes we can qualify. We have to win the next three games."

at least hicks has the balls to admit we were outplayed

IMHO, it's not a matter of balls.

Coaches, especially out of England do not use press conferences to be totally honest. Rafa has a well known pattern in his words.

Rafa knows we're not playing well. Rafa knows that when you lose a game, you cannot really just think "you controlled" the game.

But we should know that we haven't seen Rafa slagging a player saying he was not good enough. In this times, he prefers to attract the pressure and the criticism rather than to put it on the shoulders of the player. And by the looks of it, he's accomplished that goal.

I wouldn't expect that in the post match team talk he told the players "well done lads, we controlled the game". Probably he was angry with himself and the players.

No one, not even Rafa thinks that there aren't problems to be sorted out.

by **Pedro Maradona** » Thu Oct 25, 2007 2:16 pm

liverpool fc are playing with fear these days, its all so negative, the players are fearful of getting dropped, there is a fear of organised opposition, any team that is organised can defend against liverpool, its all so predictable. there is too much emphasis on tactics and not enough of letting quality players impose an offensive game on teams such as Arsenal and Man Utd seem to be able to do.
I am fed up with Rafas coaching, our negative football is like what Ged Houiller imposed on the fans, and the simple pass and move game that the club was famous for is a thing of the past. last night was embarrasing the players played with fear, cudnt pass and hadnt the footballing intelligence to break down an average team like besiktas and like marseille before that. That isnt good enough and I think it is time to have a long serious look at what is going on at the club.

by **josip84** » Thu Oct 25, 2007 2:19 pm

bigxchris wrote:
josip84 wrote:
peewee wrote:"We had a disappointing loss because we got outplayed by the Turks.", Hicks said.
at least hicks has the balls to admit we were outplayed

LFC were outplayed by Besiktas exactly in the same way as they were outplayed by Marseille 3 weeks ago, and exactly in the same way as they were outplayed by Porto shortly before.
Evidence accumulates : LFC do not take CL seriously this season. LFC show constant offhandedness in the European Competition. LFC prove one-track-minded : the Premiership title, and nothing else.
IMHO, a terrible strategic mistake in terms of season's objectives.
But I know a lot of LFC fans disagree with me.

That does not make sence we field a good team and get out played, so we dont care about the cup?

Absolutely. To a certain extent anyway.
I think (and obviously you don't) LFC can do a lot better than in the recent games. What, then, could explain such awful results?
I suspect a frail motivation and a weak spirit in the players'minds when it comes to playing in CL games.
Everybody around them keeps on repeating the Premiership title is THE objective. (Just have a look at the posts on this forum : you will read the same.)
As a consequence, I bet they don't take the CL games as seriously as they should. Unconsciously maybe.

by **Pedro Maradona** » Thu Oct 25, 2007 2:21 pm

peewee wrote:
ivor_the_injun wrote:we're clearly still a work in progress.

i disagree mate, i think we have the team to do it this year with the correct management, what i mean by management is tactics, teams selection etc.

i mean we have the best midfield in the world don't we, we have one of the best managers in the world, one of the best keepers in the world, one of the meanest defences in europe, we have enough to win the league surely.

sadly what we don't have is a manager who can make his mind up what he wants, of course he has a great reputation, but what he doesn't have is an idea how to get the best out of his team, we have all these superstars and rafa chooses to nullify them with his defensive mindset.

just for once rafa set up to win, lets not worry about the oppo, let them worry about us (i wish i had a quid for every time i said that the last few years). don't over elaborate rafa, football is a simple game, you have all the tools to do the job, you have all the power tools mate, you just don't know how to plug them in, you will use a band saw one week and then you will use a chainsaw the following week to do the same job.

every year its been the same, every year he eventually realises that he has to play a settled team, but every year he realises this when its all gone wrong, it doesn't matter how many times you try and force a square peg in a round hole, it isn't going to fit, don't waste you time, just fit the square peg in the square hole right from the start.

I want us to get back to playing football so we can see all the talent we have, we have players who cost millions not being used correctly or not being used at all while rafa fiddles with ideas. sorry guys but if he hasn't worked it out after 3 years i fear he will never work it out, I think the guy is starting to come across as foolish now, listening to his interviews, i seriously hope he doesn't actually believe the things he is saying or we will never progress, personally i think he has lost the dressing room but the players will back him in public, a top player must be able to see when something isn't working and they must eventually get annoyed by whats going on

excellent post Peewee, well said! its time some people took off the rose tinted glasses and actually looked at the type of football we are playing....its awful, its not the liverpool way...

by **bigxchris** » Thu Oct 25, 2007 2:24 pm

josip84 wrote:
bigxchris wrote:
josip84 wrote:
peewee wrote:"We had a disappointing loss because we got outplayed by the Turks.", Hicks said.
at least hicks has the balls to admit we were outplayed

LFC were outplayed by Besiktas exactly in the same way as they were outplayed by Marseille 3 weeks ago, and exactly in the same way as they were outplayed by Porto shortly before.
Evidence accumulates : LFC do not take CL seriously this season. LFC show constant offhandedness in the European Competition. LFC prove one-track-minded : the Premiership title, and nothing else.
IMHO, a terrible strategic mistake in terms of season's objectives.
But I know a lot of LFC fans disagree with me.

That does not make sence we field a good team and get out played, so we dont care about the cup?

Absolutely. To a certain extent anyway.
I think (and obviously you don't) LFC can do a lot better than in the recent games. What, then, could explain such awful results?
I suspect a frail motivation and a weak spirit in the players'minds when it comes to playing in CL games.
Everybody around them keeps on repeating the Premiership title is THE objective. (Just have a look at the posts on this forum : you will read the same.)
As a consequence, I bet they don't take the CL games as seriously as they should. Unconsciously maybe.

Your using what people on this forum say as the basis for your argument, what a load of :censored:

. I dont think I have seen a single interview (and I wouldnt want to see it either) where anyone from the club has singled out a competiton that they are concentrating on.

And yes I do think we can do much better, I KNOW we can do much better. I would be a faithless supporter if I didnt.

by **jedwards** » Thu Oct 25, 2007 2:29 pm

every year its been the same, every year he eventually realises that he has to play a settled team, but every year he realises this when its all gone wrong, it doesn't matter how many times you try and force a square peg in a round hole, it isn't going to fit, don't waste you time, just fit the square peg in the square hole right from the start.

I want us to get back to playing football so we can see all the talent we have, we have players who cost millions not being used correctly or not being used at all while rafa fiddles with ideas. sorry guys but if he hasn't worked it out after 3 years i fear he will never work it out, I think the guy is starting to come across as foolish now, listening to his interviews, i seriously hope he doesn't actually believe the things he is saying or we will never progress, personally i think he has lost the dressing room but the players will back him in public, a top player must be able to see when something isn't working and they must eventually get annoyed by whats going on
--------------------------------------------------------------------

Yes, I agree that we have the players to win every game, but the managment I do not agree with, I really doubt that Benitez himself does not know who are his best 11 since he had been in charge, this man, just chop and changes every game, he does not have a format for an attractive attacking football, he is not a manage in the right sense, he is a very good coach, but not a manager, LFC position is to big for his head, like Houllier a negative manager, strip his players from all their flair and ability. I am affraid he won't get no where this season, that if is allowed to stay, I expect LFC by December, will be 16 points behind Aresnal, and out the European league while Benitez still in charge !!!!!.

by **josip84** » Thu Oct 25, 2007 2:36 pm

Bad Bob wrote:
josip84 wrote:
peewee wrote:"We had a disappointing loss because we got outplayed by the Turks.", Hicks said.
at least hicks has the balls to admit we were outplayed

LFC were outplayed by Besiktas exactly in the same way as they were outplayed by Marseille 3 weeks ago, and exactly in the same way as they were outplayed by Porto shortly before.
Evidence accumulates : LFC do not take CL seriously this season. LFC show constant offhandedness in the European Competition. LFC prove one-track-minded : the Premiership title, and nothing else.
IMHO, a terrible strategic mistake in terms of season's objectives.
But I know a lot of LFC fans disagree with me.

A couple of questions for you:

1) What "evidence" suggests to you that we're not taking the CL seriously this season? Give us details.

2) Now, let's say you're right for a second about our offhandedness for the sake of argument. Why are you so bothered by this? I would think it might benefit Marseilles to have a distracted Liverpool in their group. You should be happy to see us focus on the league, surely?

1. Answer to your first question :evidence is too strong a word. Sorry about that, "Presumption" would have been more appropriate. What may justify such a presumption? The fact that LFC have been defeated by the supposedly weakest two teams of the group.

I've seen Besiktas at Marseille : a reasonably good team, no more. LFC should normally have outplayed them easily. And, of course, I've seen all Marseille games since the beginning of the season. I can assure you that Marseille don't play well at all this season. A lot of individual and collective problems.An average LFC should have won the game by a large margin. Honestly.

The thing is : either the reasons for your defeats are arrogance and overconfidence (which I don't think is the case), or it's offhandedness.

2. Answer to your second question:
There's one thing you don't seem to realise : of course I support Marseille, but believe it or not, I care for LFC too. I have for more than 30 years! And I sincerely think it's a pity to see LFC in a very difficult position to qualify for CL's next phase.

by **heimdall** » Thu Oct 25, 2007 2:37 pm

bigxchris wrote:
josip84 wrote:
bigxchris wrote:
josip84 wrote:
peewee wrote:"We had a disappointing loss because we got outplayed by the Turks.", Hicks said.
at least hicks has the balls to admit we were outplayed

LFC were outplayed by Besiktas exactly in the same way as they were outplayed by Marseille 3 weeks ago, and exactly in the same way as they were outplayed by Porto shortly before.
Evidence accumulates : LFC do not take CL seriously this season. LFC show constant offhandedness in the European Competition. LFC prove one-track-minded : the Premiership title, and nothing else.
IMHO, a terrible strategic mistake in terms of season's objectives.
But I know a lot of LFC fans disagree with me.

That does not make sence we field a good team and get out played, so we dont care about the cup?

Absolutely. To a certain extent anyway.
I think (and obviously you don't) LFC can do a lot better than in the recent games. What, then, could explain such awful results?
I suspect a frail motivation and a weak spirit in the players'minds when it comes to playing in CL games.
Everybody around them keeps on repeating the Premiership title is THE objective. (Just have a look at the posts on this forum : you will read the same.)
As a consequence, I bet they don't take the CL games as seriously as they should. Unconsciously maybe.

Your using what people on this forum say as the basis for your argument, what a load of . I dont think I have seen a single interview (and I wouldnt want to see it either) where anyone from the club has singled out a competiton that they are concentrating on.

And yes I do think we can do much better, I KNOW we can do much better. I would be a faithless supporter if I didnt.

Of course we can do better, we need a new manager though, Rafa's post match interview yesterday was a joke, I was actually laughing, and crying, when he started banging on about options, pity he didn't use the options like bringing on Crouch before the 80th minute!!

I've now had enough of Rafa, he's a clueless idiot and I think he is loosing the faith of the players, owners and majority of fans and in that case he needs to leave.

by **Reg** » Thu Oct 25, 2007 3:04 pm

burjennio wrote:How about we keep the critism to a minimal until either

a. we are officially out of the CL or
b. Arsenal win on Sunday and were 9 points behind them, realistically out of the title race

There is alot of similarites to the season Manu had 2 seasons ago when they had a poor CL campaign and start to the league season, but it all came good last year didnt it? Have some FAITH

Great idea - same as what British industry did throughout the 1970´s and 80´s and watched themselves go out of business.

There is no crisis, but there IS the need to make changes in strategy having recognised that what Rafa´s doing now, aint working. Not major changes, minor changes. If they dont promote the desired effect, make a coupla more minor changes and so on.

No one is saying swing the axe, but I for one, am saying regonise the need to be more flexible in his approach and start to find alternative ways to achieve the desired effect.

Common freakin´ sense really!

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