Liverpool FC Forum

by **kunilson** » Wed Oct 24, 2007 10:31 pm

Now its been a weird one for me....normally i try not to miss a single game. im not gonna prove my love for liverpool. dont have to...

and i swear i just saw us against Benfica a couple of years ago when we needed to win.
I have watched all pre-season games, the porto match, everton and tonights match in full and thats it. all other matches are whatever i caught on LFC tv or whatever. its only due to the most hectic period of my personal life ever ive toned down the LFC part of me.....

enough about me. as for liverpool. im pro-rafa and pro-this season......no.19 is what we want and we will get it. being 23 years old i can only watch replays of the great times we experienced before....this is the most exiting time being a liverpool fan i have lived through.
im one of "those" guys that walked out of the pub at half time at istanbul only to return at 70 minutes wanting to slit my throat until we won. i walked out today for a cigarette and we scored. weird..

but the new signings are just what we needed, and the football we play at times is unbelievable(ina good way, and recently....).
we need defensive cover, agger and alonso to be fit obviously because they have proved how valuable they are.
but we have a great SQUAD finally. the rotation thing is so much of a joke that i actually laugh out loud when it is brought up. rafa knows what he is doing....if anything he's trying to adjust to life without his right-hand man, and friend.....and to do that without losing many games is unbelievable on his part.

Torres is the striker ive been waiting for. young, passionate, hungry. legend in the making.....not yet.

Babbel: selfish, direct player, young, creative.
Benayoun: creative
Voronin: experienced
Leiva....dunno yet but very promising
etc
Rafa has got it right.....

i have tried to read as many posts as possible during the last month or so but it has been hard...dont know what the "fan-base" is like these days cos it changes so :censored:

much but i can only assume its the usual :censored:

after we lose.....which we shouldnt have.....

i thought crouch shoulda came on earlier and we did the opposite of what was required the whole game i.e we played the easy ball when the harder ball was on, played the hard ball when the easy ball was on, were patient when we should have been more urgent and vice versa...

******

the season started off on a bright note for once....now what do we do? do we take each match as it comes? do we go through the motions and just enjoy the moments we can. beat the :censored:

out of someone every now and then? slate rafa...step on dogshit etc...

im gonna take each moment as it comes and enjoy the ride. the reds are coming up the hill boys. IF WE ARE NOT ALREADY THERE!
:buttrock

alrite ill go back to my shorter posts now.....c u in the morning

Merged this in with Micks as its of a similar vein.

by **bigmick** » Wed Oct 24, 2007 10:57 pm

peewee wrote:haha tactical genius, his half time team talk was "keep doing the same"

Do you think that the result was due to:

1) Rotation
2) Not playing Crouch
3) Pako having left
4) The players did not perform

Sorry for a new thread but the match one is obviously full of one liners and angry people, and it's likely to have 30 pages before the hours up so if it's Ok, (and as I didn't see the game) I thought I'd have a go at assessing where we are, kind of like a school report on where we currently stand.

Clearly we aren't going too well at the moment, one or two things are a little out of sync and we don't look like a good team. I would urge people though when assessing what they're watching to consider that the difference between good and bad is often miniscule in football. It can be a pass which is hit with a fraction less pace, a striker who is confident enough to leave his position and gamble on hitting space, a midfielder who is confident enough to stand still and wait for the space to "emerge" around him rather than headlessly running around. Get all those things wrong, add in a touch of anxiety and you get snatched first touches, hurried shots, mistimed jumps for headers and it all goes wrong. Just remember when we went 3-0 up against Derby, suddenly it was carnival football as a wave of confidence surged through the team. That's what it's like whe you are playing well, this is what its like when you are playing bad.

To answer Leons question as to why? Well probably all of the things he has listed have made a contribution, though some more than others. Rotation was obviously (well its obvious to me anyway) the main factor in our original loss of form, Pako I've really no idea about because I'm not sure what he actually did aside from some second hand cliches about "arm around the shoulder" stuff, Crouch could probably have played more although it must be said he has been poor when he has, and the players are collectively playing rubbish at the moment. Another option which wasn't included is of course the overall management of the team, ie the manager. Clearly if we continued to play like this ad infinitum then he would have to go.

Based on current form we won't win anything and will probably finish mid-table, but obviously that won't happen. Either Rafa will improve things or somebody else will, and we'll finish I am absolutely certain near the top of the league and we'll have Cup run, although perhaps not in the Champions League it seems.

What to do going forward? Well we've got to make ourselves difficult to beat, particularly on Sunday. It's become a massive game for us now, not quite a must win or even a musn't lose, but a three or four nil drubbing would probably be a fatal blow to our title aspirations, and quite possibly Rafa's tenure.

I actually think the rotation has been binned for the time being. We made two changes from the Saturday game tonight, Sissoko was obviously a must, while Babel was a logical replacement for Benayoun. There wasn't any wholesale changing the team for no obvious reason and I don't think we'll see that anymore TBH. My guess is that we'll go with a largely settled team from now on, and when our great white hopes comes back from injury it'll be almost the same eleven every week.

If we can get something going over the next three or four weeks then all is not lost. We may be almost out of the Champions League but most people were saying before the thing started that they didn't give a feck about it anyway, me included. IT's time now to press on in the league.

Make absolutely no mistake about it though, the manager will now be under extreme pressure. It really isn't going to wash in the overall scheme of things to stick to the "it's the players" mantra, when the manager assembled the squad, picks the team, decides on tactics, substitutes whare he sees fit, freezes out who he doesn't fancy and is supposedly charged with motivating the players. Rafa has proven himself a very shrewd football man in buiding a fine squad of players. Whether or not he is capable of being successful in the English Premier League or not will be decided before Christmas I think.

by **LFC2007** » Wed Oct 24, 2007 11:03 pm

STOP! DO NOT PASS GO. THIS HAS BEEN DONE BEFORE. STOP IT MICK!

Lock this thread until AFTER the Arsenal match.

by **bigmick** » Wed Oct 24, 2007 11:11 pm

Well I know it's early..

But I like to get my cards on the table nice and early LFC as you know. IT's nowhere near as bad as some are making out on here at the moment and I have a hunch we might well beat Arsenal. If we don't, then I'm saying here and now it's not the end of the World. If however we got spanked four nil then don't be surprised if Rafa was under extreme pressure. It's also an attempt to say why we aren't really ticking, as opposed to "it's Rafa's fault" or "it's rotation" or "it's nothing to do with those, it's the players".

It's not like you to not be able to think of anything to say LFC

by **account deleted by request** » Wed Oct 24, 2007 11:14 pm

I actually think the rotation has been binned for the time being. We made two changes from the Saturday game tonight, Sissoko was obviously a must, while Babel was a logical replacement for Benayoun. There wasn't any wholesale changing the team for no obvious reason and I don't think we'll see that anymore TBH. My guess is that we'll go with a largely settled team from now on, and when our great white hopes comes back from injury it'll be almost the same eleven every week.

.

I bet you there are at least 4 changes for the Arsenal game Mick.

by **Ola Mr Benitez** » Wed Oct 24, 2007 11:19 pm

good post Mick

I tend to agree with all your points above, Football is a team game and the team, and I mean everyone incl management have to shoulder the blame.

Rafa is rather stubborn and my only concern is that he really believes what he said after the game, if he does think we played well tonight, how can he correct what is going wrong. That is a worry for me. I think he does believe his tactics are right or he would make subs earlier in games.

I think things will improve with the return of Agger and Alonso, and I think that something needs to be done with Crouch. It has been proven again today that we cannot start a game with Kuyt and Voronin up front, therfore if Torres is not available we NEED TO GIVE CROUCH A CHANCE.

by **LFC2007** » Wed Oct 24, 2007 11:21 pm

I can think of plenty to say mate, unfortunately it reverts back to the same stuff that's been said over the last few games.

It's another let's take stock thread, and one too early IMO, or one with little more to add on top of what has been stated already.

I think there's a consensus that the league is our top priority, with the UCL being important, but in the short term merely for the financial gain of reaching the knock out stages.

I see there as being very little that we can draw and analyse from tonight's game other than the continuation of the problems we've been experiencing of late.

What I'm saying is that the Arsenal game is the acid test. It's the perfect time to analyse the situation, given that we are in decent position in the league.

by **red37** » Wed Oct 24, 2007 11:27 pm

The propensity to panic when under such 'extreme pressure' as you call it (I happen to think Benitez will get some fair rope yet) would tend to make me think that there will infact, be several changes on Sunday. Wholesale? Maybe not - but those lads tonight will be drained. Perhaps he himself may wish to avoid any such circumstance from arising and take this opportunity to revert to type - Should the selections be appropriate and the performance raised considerably, there won't be an issue at all. There are three or four players in contention from recovering from injury anyway...not to mention Kewell getting closer to some action. Apparently.

I'd be extremely surprised if Rafa did not shuffle the pack significantly enough at this point in time. Considering there are better options returning, alongside the onus to get back on track with one of our direct rivals, and the chance to take points off them at home. There simply has to be an improvement.

by **JohnBull** » Wed Oct 24, 2007 11:28 pm

I've done all this but it got moved in case it upset Lando.

Tonights fiasco was just another example of a man losing the plot. Who TF is bigger than the club now? He can spit his dummy out all he wants but the club, MY club is bigger than his ego.

If he couldn't see that Crouch was a "must start" then he's a bloody idiot. We are again playing like strangers with a squad that includes some of the best players I have ever seen at Anfield. There is NO excuse for this team and the common denominator in this equation is Raffa.

by **jedwards** » Wed Oct 24, 2007 11:50 pm

I have already said in the summer before the new season has started, that Benitez, will fail very badly this season taking in consideration the steady decline in team standard and so many poor performances of last season, despite Benitez's buys of some very good players, in addition to some very average player too.

The problem lies totally with this manager (Benitez) for some people who thinks he is genius on the evidence of last game against Everton, but to me he is a very arrogant football manager, who thinks he is always correct with his questionable team selection and substitutions during many games, and does not want to admit to his grave mistakes or learn from it, he gets very lucky sometimes, but he is no genius or clever, during his charge of LFC's team, he had made so many mistakes, not least in European Cup final of this year, when we lost the game to Milan because of idiotic team selection, and I have in no doubt in my mind, that Benitez will not achieve the LFC ambition by wining the premier league, it is totally beyond him.

Let just take the last few past matches, his tactic and team selection were totally wrong, especially the last home European game, where he had opted to select a very average players and out of form Sissoko, Leto, etc, and we end up losing a very important and very expensive game, and as result of that game, he had put the players under sever pressure in order to chase other matches for top results to avoid lamination from European league, which it will eventually cost LFC almost £25 Millions, which it is looks likely to happen, the team will fail to make the next stages, due to embarrassing lose in Turkey tonight, and once again I question Benitez wisdom in playing two like weight strikers in Kuyt and a very average Voronin, who both have struggled very badly, they have not managed to win any headers against the Turkish defenders all night, only this to change when Crouch is brought on very late, and immediately made an impact his team to get a goal back, but it was well to late to repair the early damage, Voronin should never started, he had failed to score in many occasions in the past matches, so is Kuyt also had failed to score from open play, I had my doubt about his, he costs the club £10 Millions, money was badly spent on an average player, who can not get 15 goals a season!!!. I know we have some key players who are injured at present, but I still think we have other good players like Crouch, who should really lead up front, Babel a must on the Left, and Benayoun is very active on right wing, Mascherano should always ahead of Sissoko (who need to improve so badly) two season had gone and his game is in decline rather than improving, this is down to coach/manager Mr. Benitez!!!!. At the back we have big problem with Finnen and Riise (who also has no footballing brain), Hyypia is very slow now, but our brainy Benitez, went in summer and bought and had spent a lots of money on average players like Leto, and failed to spend on new centre half, why can't he use Hoobs, and give him a chance.

The LFC must act now about Benitez, otherwise, it will well too late, another season another year with league title in sight, by Sunday we will have another horror show, which LFC will end up 9 points behind the new kids of Arsenal, who will teach LFC's new team how to pass and move, which it was LFC trade mark by the pass masters of old Liverpool teams, it is shame to see our beloved team in constants decline apart from few successes far in between. In reality give those present players at LFC, to A.wanger of Arsenal or Ferguson of M. united, or other top manager, they will win the league every season.

I am sorry if I have hurt your feelings, but there is a serious problem with Benitez's way of handling things right now.

by **Pedro Maradona** » Wed Oct 24, 2007 11:54 pm

i was actually disillusioned by the performance tonight. the passing was shocking, appalling actually, the defending was very poor and im not just talking about hyppias lack of pace, finnan was poor and also risse, carra was the only one who played with some dignity, the back four looked so slow. clearly mascherano is told protect the back four and does this job very very well but doesnt allow himself to push on and dictate the play in midfield to any degree (south american teams emphasis on having a playmaker in the centre of the park dong this may be a reason why mascherano (who is not such a player) tends to be a grafter and so defensive orientated) stephen gerrard is not a true playmaker in this way, he does his best work in the final third of the pitch but rarely starts off attacking moves from deep. (personally id play gerard off of a lone striker) oh for a riquelme in the playmaker role, alonso has been a big loss with his injury and it really shows when he does not play. as for the wide players, thy didnt play very clever rarely attacked down the flanks...if i am being harsh id say football wise i dont think pennant is intelligent enough. babbel i give the benifit of the doubt as he is such a new player in the team. I thought that benyoun did well when he came on and i think he is a clever footballer. up front i think it was the worst performance from a front two i have seen in long time. neither are out and out strikers, they work hard but are too similar to play together imo crouch should have started with either one of them.
i dont think all is well at anfield, from coaching point of view there is no structure to liverpools play, the passing and distribution is very bad and the play lacks imagination, confidence is very low and i dont think the players know what rafa is doing and perhaps there isnt enough clever footballing brains in the team to be able to dictate games. the difference tonight between besiktas and liverpool was besiktas played well as a team, each player knew there job and stuck to the task, liverpool quite frankly did none of these things.
i hate to say it but i dont think it is working and i dont think rafa will last the season the way things are going.

by **red37** » Thu Oct 25, 2007 12:00 am

why cant he use Hoobs

Sorry mate im not laughing at you. Honest. Its been a stressful evening, just lightening the load a bit - but jeez what a post! - Hoobs :laugh:

Jack...hoobs!!

by **lakes10** » Thu Oct 25, 2007 12:02 am

bigmick wrote:
peewee wrote:haha tactical genius, his half time team talk was "keep doing the same"

Do you think that the result was due to:

1) Rotation
2) Not playing Crouch
3) Pako having left
4) The players did not perform

Sorry for a new thread but the match one is obviously full of one liners and angry people, and it's likely to have 30 pages before the hours up so if it's Ok, (and as I didn't see the game) I thought I'd have a go at assessing where we are, kind of like a school report on where we currently stand.

Clearly we aren't going too well at the moment, one or two things are a little out of sync and we don't look like a good team. I would urge people though when assessing what they're watching to consider that the difference between good and bad is often miniscule in football. It can be a pass which is hit with a fraction less pace, a striker who is confident enough to leave his position and gamble on hitting space, a midfielder who is confident enough to stand still and wait for the space to "emerge" around him rather than headlessly running around. Get all those things wrong, add in a touch of anxiety and you get snatched first touches, hurried shots, mistimed jumps for headers and it all goes wrong. Just remember when we went 3-0 up against Derby, suddenly it was carnival football as a wave of confidence surged through the team. That's what it's like whe you are playing well, this is what its like when you are playing bad.

To answer Leons question as to why? Well probably all of the things he has listed have made a contribution, though some more than others. Rotation was obviously (well its obvious to me anyway) the main factor in our original loss of form, Pako I've really no idea about because I'm not sure what he actually did aside from some second hand cliches about "arm around the shoulder" stuff, Crouch could probably have played more although it must be said he has been poor when he has, and the players are collectively playing rubbish at the moment. Another option which wasn't included is of course the overall management of the team, ie the manager. Clearly if we continued to play like this ad infinitum then he would have to go.

Based on current form we won't win anything and will probably finish mid-table, but obviously that won't happen. Either Rafa will improve things or somebody else will, and we'll finish I am absolutely certain near the top of the league and we'll have Cup run, although perhaps not in the Champions League it seems.

What to do going forward? Well we've got to make ourselves difficult to beat, particularly on Sunday. It's become a massive game for us now, not quite a must win or even a musn't lose, but a three or four nil drubbing would probably be a fatal blow to our title aspirations, and quite possibly Rafa's tenure.

I actually think the rotation has been binned for the time being. We made two changes from the Saturday game tonight, Sissoko was obviously a must, while Babel was a logical replacement for Benayoun. There wasn't any wholesale changing the team for no obvious reason and I don't think we'll see that anymore TBH. My guess is that we'll go with a largely settled team from now on, and when our great white hopes comes back from injury it'll be almost the same eleven every week.

If we can get something going over the next three or four weeks then all is not lost. We may be almost out of the Champions League but most people were saying before the thing started that they didn't give a feck about it anyway, me included. IT's time now to press on in the league.

Make absolutely no mistake about it though, the manager will now be under extreme pressure. It really isn't going to wash in the overall scheme of things to stick to the "it's the players" mantra, when the manager assembled the squad, picks the team, decides on tactics, substitutes whare he sees fit, freezes out who he doesn't fancy and is supposedly charged with motivating the players. Rafa has proven himself a very shrewd football man in buiding a fine squad of players. Whether or not he is capable of being successful in the English Premier League or not will be decided before Christmas I think.

Great post mick, I think you are right in lost of points. But the one thing i can not get out of my mind is that Rafa will stick to his gun like he has before. in that case the change must be made by somebody else.

by **Pedro Maradona** » Thu Oct 25, 2007 12:03 am

red37 wrote:The propensity to panic when under such 'extreme pressure' as you call it (I happen to think Benitez will get some fair rope yet) would tend to make me think that there will infact, be several changes on Sunday. Wholesale? Maybe not - but those lads tonight will be drained. Perhaps he himself may wish to avoid any such circumstance from arising and take this opportunity to revert to type - Should the selections be appropriate and the performance raised considerably, there won't be an issue at all. There are three or four players in contention from recovering from injury anyway...not to mention Kewell getting closer to some action. Apparently.

I'd be extremely surprised if Rafa did not shuffle the pack significantly enough at this point in time. Considering there are better options returning, alongside the onus to get back on track with one of our direct rivals, and the chance to take points off them at home. There simply has to be an improvement.

i dont think it is the players, its the way we play, our passing is awful, we are too negative and rely on counterattack or an individual to get us out of a tight spot such as the countless times stephen gerrard has done it and for example benyoun this year. Also it always looks like they play like a team that dont know each other.
individually liverpools players are all good but together you never know if it is going to work on the day, that is a coaching issue, that is benitezs job to get that right.
IMO i think he has bought badly at times and this hasnt helped

by **tel** » Thu Oct 25, 2007 12:40 am

It is that bad. Teams that win things at the end of the season are aleays the ones that hit form the fastest at the beginning of the season.

Premiership teams are more likely to have led the league from the first couple of games, as opposed to coming from behind to snatch it.

Rafa is the kind of coach that would rather be sacked than admit he is wrong

Rotation is here to stay as long as he is coaching the club

And as long as he rotates, we will not play with consistency or form.

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