Liverpool FC Forum

by **stmichael** » Mon Oct 08, 2007 1:19 pm

I'm not going to single players out but there are far too many who are either out of form at the moment or simply not good enough.

Alonso and Agger can't come back soon enough as we really struggle to retain the ball when they're not around. Aggers absence means the defence is constantly hoofing the ball up and bypassing the midfield and as I've said before Alonso is the most important player we have to the way we play. Without him there is no one to put a foot on the ball and have a look, and a serious lack of composure.

by **Big Niall** » Mon Oct 08, 2007 1:20 pm

At the end of the season it will be time to decide whether he is the man that can win the league.

I don't think he can but we should stick with him for the season.

by **puroresu** » Mon Oct 08, 2007 1:27 pm

Avi Cohen wrote:I just think the team is set up all wrong. We sit far too deep and the strikers have no support or Jermaine Pennant.
Watching Chelsea and the scum play, every time they are on the attack there's 4/5 players bombing it into the box. When we attack, it's usually one of our strikers collecting the ball out on the wing with his partner in the box marked by 2/3. Gerrard is sitting too deep and since he's usually the guy who's pinged the 60 yard pass, he's far too behind to follow it up.
Rafa worries too much about the oppo for my liking. He sends out a team that he's convinced will win against whoever we're playing. Team A likes to soak it up, kill the game with possession and play on the counter, so if I have Momo in there biting at their ankles and not giving them time on the ball we should pin them back. He thinks too much. Just put out your best XI and change when players are A) tired B) injured or C) not on form. Simple as.
But does Rafa want a best XI? I don't know. It looks like he wants a free-flowing squad that floats in and out of the team - like cogs in a machine. And as we all know a machine has no craft or intelligence.
Johnny Giles was saying last night that management is putting the small mistakes that happen in ever game right. But as Rafa chops and changes, these mistakes are never addressed.

I agree. We do not attack in numbers at all. The lack of bodies breaking forward and getting into the box is a joke. So many times a cross will arrive in the box and there is 1 or 2 players surrounded by 4 defenders with the midfield nowhere to be seen.

So much emphasis is on getting the ball back. The opposition could break into our half with 4 players and we will have 8 players trying to get the ball back. There is no need for so many to be in defensive positions as when we do get it back we cant break quickly in numbers as we have too many players in defensive positions and also we aint the quickest side either.

Why are CB's just hoofing the ball upfield. Why are they not told to stop doing it?

by **ivor_the_injun** » Mon Oct 08, 2007 9:07 pm

If the players didn't give the ball away so often, we wouldn't have to put anywhere near as much emphasis on getting it back.

At the moment, I don't think the talk should be on the manager, or whether we can win the league. It's simply a matter of whether the players on the pitch are capable of doing their jobs well enough throughout the course of the season. Last season Rooney was terrible for Man U for long spells, but the team made up for his poor performances, goals still came, and eventually he played and scored his way back into shape. Later on in the season their defence was hit by injuries and fell to bits, but still the greasy haired stepover merchant dragged them through the games, grinding out wins as their attacking threat nullified the need to keep clean sheets.

Our problems right now when we're struggling all over the pitch. Early on in the season when Riise was looking vulnerable, the rest of the defence kept things tight, and our attacking flair brought us the goals. We had a passenger, but as a team we carried him through.

Now, the central defenders are suddenly looking sluggish, there's no cohesion from central midfield, we have no left sided midfield option in form, and the goal threat from the strikers is inconsistent.

It's totally a matter of circumstance, and time will tell if this means some of the players aren't cut out for the challenge. Even when they're at their most incoherent, Lampard manages to squeak a goal in for Chelsea, but right now we're looking like a mid-table side when the going gets a little tough, and our goal threat at times is so infrequent it's frightening.

Against Spurs after Torres had scored, many of our players celebrated, delighted to be a side that had got out of jail. I'd have liked to have seen Torres or Gerrard grab the ball from the net and then usher his teammates back to the halfway line hoping to find enough seconds for a final attack to nick a winner. We should not be the kind of side that celebrates a goal that goes in for a fortunate draw, and that's a mark of where the players are right now.

For me, get the defence up to the halfway line, get the wingers flying, keep the ball on the ground and make every moment in possession about moving the ball forward. While Agger's out, we're shaky at the back regardless of how deep the central defenders sit, so it's better to give yourself every chance of a 3-2 win when the alternative's looking like a potential 0-1 before the first whistle's even gone, such is the negativity and incompetence in the side right now.

by **Emerald Red** » Tue Oct 09, 2007 12:57 am

It's Xabi Alonso, isn't it? He doesn't get the credit he deserves sometimes. He keeps us ticking over, and with him at the hub of things, he gives us more ballance. The team is just set up wrong, and a lot of our players just look lost and don't seem to know their role. I think we need to start playing 5 across the middle with Torres up on his own until we get some stabillity.

by **bigmick** » Tue Oct 09, 2007 1:38 am

Well since we've got a thread talking about the players, lets have a go without mentioning the R word. Having watched a re-run of Sundays game, there are a couple of observations.

Firstly as I alluded to another thread, Hyppia is a really big problem for us the moment. To be so comprehensively beaten in the air by Berbatov for both goals was a surprise, and his performance throughout was sluggish and indicative of a player who is coming towards the end at best, and already there at worst. Carragher wasn't his imperious best for either goal either, with Finnan badly at fault for the first, Arbeloa slightly less so for the second. They'll have to do a lot better. Yakubu and Adebayor will also win headers against us, and we are going to need to defend a lot better to prevent Van Persie and Johnson having a field day.

The problem of course if Sami is gone, is that you defend deep to protect him from pace safe in the knowledge that he'll win the headers. If though he starts losing those headers, then sharp forwards such as Keane (wouldn't you like to see him partnering Torres up front?) will get onto knockdowns on and around the penalty spot. This is a huge issue with the team at the moment and makes you very easy to attack against. Like I said on another thread, if Hobbs isn't a better bet than Hyppia at the moment then we should certainly get rid.

In midfield we continue to look stilted. Gerrard is someway below his best, although it should be pointed out that he won the free kick for the first goal, took the free kick from which the first goal was scored and then hit the post with another one so its not all bad. Equally he was denied a goal himself from Voronins layoff by an unintentional block from a trailing leg. Masherano is playing Ok without uprooting trees, and the much vaunted partnership between him and the catain isn't working at the moment. Now I know I said it was the partnership which I preferred, but it would be silly to pretend otherwise and unless Gerrards form picks up and/or Masherano begins to have a greater influence in posession, Alonso will be welcomed back with open arms. I remain fairly sure that the lack of progress is largely due to a flat period from Gerrard, but it might be time for Masherano to take some responsibility. On another note, I'm still far from convinced that the captain is at his most effective when playing in the centre rather than on the right but that's for another thread.

Out wide we continue to disappoint. To me we start too wide and then stay there too long. I'd like to see more right/left midfielder than right/left winger, and at the very least the bloke on the opposite side to where the play is has to check in much more readily. Seeing Man Utd and Arsenal's wide men arriving at the back post time and time again is surely all the illustration anyone would need that we are missing a huge trick going forward here. Ronaldo doesn't score from the touchline, neither did Ljundberg nor Beckham, Giggs or indeed Gerrard. Wide players are not there to give the team a good look from the blimp, they are there to provide crosses but also to attack and defend, to contribute. At the moment they aren't doing nearly enough.

Up top Torres continues to shine but often is isolated as we don't get around him anything like quickly enough. I'm afraid having watched the Spaniard a few times now I've come to the conclusion that none of the other three are ideal partners for him. He's much better in the air and stronger at protecting the ball than I imagined, and as such needs someone to play not just with him but off him as well. His movement is excellent and he has very good pace. Call me stupid but I would like to have seen Cisse with Torres, although admittedly I would probably have tired of the experience after a couple of games. In the absense of that scenario, my hunch (and it's not an original one to be fair as some have alluded to this for some time) is that we need somebody with sharpness, pace and agility in and around the box. Keane would be nice on the evidence of Saturday, although since we paid eleven million quid for him and he is supposed to play there, it might be worth giving Babel a shot as well.

All round though it's just not quite clicking. I wouldn't be for changing too much though. I just get the feeling that we are playing with a tad too much fear, players a little too concerned about getting caught and just not quite committing to a decision. Nowhere near as bad as it looks though, just needs a bit of patience and consisitency of selection to sort itself out in my view.

by **Bad Bob** » Tue Oct 09, 2007 2:26 am

bigmick wrote:Well since we've got a thread talking about the players, lets have a go without mentioning the R word. Having watched a re-run of Sundays game, there are a couple of observations.

Firstly as I alluded to another thread, Hyppia is a really big problem for us the moment. To be so comprehensively beaten in the air by Berbatov for both goals was a surprise, and his performance throughout was sluggish and indicative of a player who is coming towards the end at best, and already there at worst. Carragher wasn't his imperious best for either goal either, with Finnan badly at fault for the first, Arbeloa slightly less so for the second. They'll have to do a lot better. Yakubu and Adebayor will also win headers against us, and we are going to need to defend a lot better to prevent Van Persie and Johnson having a field day.

The problem of course if Sami is gone, is that you defend deep to protect him from pace safe in the knowledge that he'll win the headers. If though he starts losing those headers, then sharp forwards such as Keane (wouldn't you like to see him partnering Torres up front?) will get onto knockdowns on and around the penalty spot. This is a huge issue with the team at the moment and makes you very easy to attack against. Like I said on another thread, if Hobbs isn't a better bet than Hyppia at the moment then we should certainly get rid.

In midfield we continue to look stilted. Gerrard is someway below his best, although it should be pointed out that he won the free kick for the first goal, took the free kick from which the first goal was scored and then hit the post with another one so its not all bad. Equally he was denied a goal himself from Voronins layoff by an unintentional block from a trailing leg. Masherano is playing Ok without uprooting trees, and the much vaunted partnership between him and the catain isn't working at the moment. Now I know I said it was the partnership which I preferred, but it would be silly to pretend otherwise and unless Gerrards form picks up and/or Masherano begins to have a greater influence in posession, Alonso will be welcomed back with open arms. I remain fairly sure that the lack of progress is largely due to a flat period from Gerrard, but it might be time for Masherano to take some responsibility. On another note, I'm still far from convinced that the captain is at his most effective when playing in the centre rather than on the right but that's for another thread.

Out wide we continue to disappoint. To me we start too wide and then stay there too long. I'd like to see more right/left midfielder than right/left winger, and at the very least the bloke on the opposite side to where the play is has to check in much more readily. Seeing Man Utd and Arsenal's wide men arriving at the back post time and time again is surely all the illustration anyone would need that we are missing a huge trick going forward here. Ronaldo doesn't score from the touchline, neither did Ljundberg nor Beckham, Giggs or indeed Gerrard. Wide players are not there to give the team a good look from the blimp, they are there to provide crosses but also to attack and defend, to contribute. At the moment they aren't doing nearly enough.

Up top Torres continues to shine but often is isolated as we don't get around him anything like quickly enough. I'm afraid having watched the Spaniard a few times now I've come to the conclusion that none of the other three are ideal partners for him. He's much better in the air and stronger at protecting the ball than I imagined, and as such needs someone to play not just with him but off him as well. His movement is excellent and he has very good pace. Call me stupid but I would like to have seen Cisse with Torres, although admittedly I would probably have tired of the experience after a couple of games. In the absense of that scenario, my hunch (and it's not an original one to be fair as some have alluded to this for some time) is that we need somebody with sharpness, pace and agility in and around the box. Keane would be nice on the evidence of Saturday, although since we paid eleven million quid for him and he is supposed to play there, it might be worth giving Babel a shot as well.

All round though it's just not quite clicking. I wouldn't be for changing too much though. I just get the feeling that we are playing with a tad too much fear, players a little too concerned about getting caught and just not quite committing to a decision. Nowhere near as bad as it looks though, just needs a bit of patience and consisitency of selection to sort itself out in my view.

Breath of fresh air, this post Mick. It's been too long since we talked in depth about the players' performances on this board (and that's not a dig at anyone because I'm just as culpable). I agree with pretty much everything you've said, particularly with respect to Gerrard and Mascherano. They're tidy when the play together but the opposition has learned to sit tight on Gerrard and force Mascherano to play the ball forward...which is just not his forte.

The one thing I would add--since you didn't mention him by name--is that Pennant seems to have backslid (a real word?) a bit since the start of the season (who hasn't, I suppose?). He was pretty lacklustre against Spurs, save his now obligatory explosion at the ref for what he feels is an unjust call. He seems to be back to being a bit sloppy in possession and slack in his passing, while not showing enough willingness to get after the fullbacks. Kuyt was far more effective at RM than Pennant was on Sunday.

On the other side of the pitch, I just can't see Babel as a LM. I know you asked for the wide players to play more narrow but all he seems to do when he gets the ball is drive straight into the centre of the pitch and, more often than not, lose the ball in the congested region just outside the box. By all means, partner him with Torres for a match to see what he can do but don't play him on the flank if you expect the team to keep its shape. I guess we'll be seeing a lot more of Riise at LM, given that Rafa clearly has his doubts about Babel as well, based on his recent selection decisions.

I'd love to say more but I've got to get up early to drive the missus to the airport tomorrow so that's me done for the night.

by **Ciggy** » Tue Oct 09, 2007 6:43 am

They have to take the blame as well as Rafa they are not operating as a team at the moment, whether its down to missing Alonso and Agger and Rafa telling them not to let Hyypia get exposed.

We are defending so deep at Anfield its not the norm what we are used to we usually batter the oppo at Anfield peppering the goal with all sorts of shots the game against Marsielle we had one shot on target that speaks volumes.

To many foreigners even though good players do not know what it means to play for us to many different languages being spoken in the dressing room not enough heart & determination.

Wish there was a good Scottish player within the ranks give them a bit of fire in their belly to many Mr Nice guys we need that never say die attitude because up to now we havent seen it in the prem for years and years.

Not just this team but those in the past aswell, until we start getting angry and get a nasty streak we will not win the league.

by **66-1112520797** » Tue Oct 09, 2007 9:54 am

Firstly as I alluded to another thread, Hyppia is a really big problem for us the moment. To be so comprehensively beaten in the air by Berbatov for both goals was a surprise, and his performance throughout was sluggish and indicative of a player who is coming towards the end at best, and already there at worst.

Agreed, Hyypia was for the want of a better word quite awful against Spurs, two or three years ago Berbatov would never of won those headers that led to Tottenhams goals. He looked so sluggish and the front pairing of Keane and Berbatov who would give most Premiership defences a torrid time, made him and Carragher look very ordinary.

As a striking partnership I dont think we've come accross any better so far and there might not be any better in the league. We could do with taking note from Spur's forward line, and try to forge our own regular partnership. There is no way Keane and Berbatov could play as they do if they were rotated.

Anyway I thought Hyypia was a liability on Sunday, and it seems our team position themselve's deeper when he's in the side. Another reason I think we find it hard to move forward in numbers, when the defence sit deeper, so do the midfield and that will leave more space between Torres and his support. I think Agger is key here, not only can he pick a pass, but more often than not the defence pushes higher up.

by **AussieKopite** » Tue Oct 09, 2007 11:22 am

Bamaga man wrote:
Firstly as I alluded to another thread, Hyppia is a really big problem for us the moment. To be so comprehensively beaten in the air by Berbatov for both goals was a surprise, and his performance throughout was sluggish and indicative of a player who is coming towards the end at best, and already there at worst.

Agreed, Hyypia was for the want of a better word quite awful against Spurs, two or three years ago Berbatov would never of won those headers that led to Tottenhams goals. He looked so sluggish and the front pairing of Keane and Berbatov who would give most Premiership defences a torrid time, made him and Carragher look very ordinary.

As a striking partnership I dont think we've come accross any better so far and there might not be any better in the league. We could do with taking note from Spur's forward line, and try to forge our own regular partnership. There is no way Keane and Berbatov could play as they do if they were rotated.

Anyway I thought Hyypia was a liability on Sunday, and it seems our team position themselve's deeper when he's in the side. Another reason I think we find it hard to move forward in numbers, when the defence sit deeper, so do the midfield and that will leave more space between Torres and his support. I think Agger is key here, not only can he pick a pass, but more often than not the defence pushes higher up.

Rememebr that Hyypia is in because of Agger's injury. I feel uncomfortable blaming Hyypia because he has been such a good servant of the club and was likely only expecting to play League Cup, early FA Cup and the games against the recently promoted.

by **puroresu** » Tue Oct 09, 2007 11:25 am

I am not surprised by pennants form. His problem is he cant perform to a high standard week in week out. when he has a good game people go crazy as usually he doesnt do much. pennant isnt good enough and we need better wide players than him.

by **ivor_the_injun** » Tue Oct 09, 2007 12:23 pm

Singling out individuals is kind of pointless right now. When the rest of the team is stinking out the place, it must be very difficult to show your best form.

For the record I completely disagree. Pennant was the pick of our team for at least the first half of the Champions League final last season, and if that's not an indicator that he's worthy of the shirt, I don't know what else you need to see. It's not like our captain is Mr Consistency right now, but I don't hear anyone saying he's not good enough for the club.

by **bigmick** » Tue Oct 09, 2007 12:29 pm

Iv' the whole forum is kinda pointless mate in that it doesn't really achieve anything or matter much to anyone who doesn't regularly come on here. It's just bar-room opinions at the end of the day and a few people have rightly complained that every thread was getting filled up with talk about rotation, so this thread was probably started as a way of getting the focus back onto the team and/or players.

That the team isn't rally playing particularly well is neither disputed nor much of a discussion point in itself. The component parts within it though are slightly more interesting to talk about. I don't think it's a question of singling people out or blaming any one player (because they've all been pretty poor to be honest) but I think it's reasonable to try and assertain what is actually going wrong.

by **66-1112520797** » Tue Oct 09, 2007 12:33 pm

Singling out individuals is kind of pointless right now

The whole team is playing poorly but from what I saw of the game on Sunday it was a game to forget for Sami.

by **ivor_the_injun** » Tue Oct 09, 2007 12:47 pm

I'm not saying it's not fun, or a suitable way of occupying space on the forum, it's just that after some iffy results the wolves come out with their agendas. Pennant will always have his doubters, but on recent evidence, to come out and conclude that the displays the side have put on are evidence that Pennant is a weak link is frankly bizarre.

Watching the Spurs game with no prior knowledge of the club, you'd think half the team were genuinely poor players. You'd think Sami and Carra had never met one another, and you'd think we had a captain that doesn't have the stomach for a few midfield challenges. I have no problem with people doubting the players we have, but I do have a problem when players like Carra and Gerrard are spared the same kind of doubt and scrutiny. They have both been as iffy if not more so than Pennant of late.

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