Liverpool FC Forum

by **Wilhelmsson** » Fri Sep 28, 2007 10:24 am

Anfield rapper wrote:

I would have thought the Reading game would have reinforced peoples views that Torres should have started in the last two league games. Are they wrong?

Maybe Torres should have started against Pompey and Brummie, but that point is neither here or there. The matches have been done and dusted. Personally I felt Torres, Gerrard and Babel should have started at Fratton Park, I did not accept Rafa’s team selection for that match.

The Birmingham match should have been won without Torres, but it wasn’t, I don’t feel as though that would have warranted his selection.

My slight concern is that Liverpool fans are over relying in Torres and I can just picture the frenzy that will occur if and when Torres is injured. I like Torres, he is proving to be a fantastic signing, but with or without Torres, the team should be able to beat a majority of the teams in the league.

by **Sabre** » Fri Sep 28, 2007 10:41 am

peewee wrote:yeah dawson, so now we have to make up these points later, i get tired of telling people 4 points is 4 points whether we get the now or next april, if we get them now there is no need to be making them up next april.

its simple logic that the boss doesn't seem to grasp

The BBC doesn't grasp all Rafa's explanation about Torres benching the other day. The got the part in which he talked about having Torres ready in the last 14 games, but they didn't get the part in which he explained that, if he had played against Birmingham AND Reading, then he would be not fit for Wigan, which are another 3 points.

He added the point that a club that wins is not a one-man club, and he has to trust the other strikers, which he considered similar.

The interview as a whole is worth to listen

by **Anfield rapper** » Fri Sep 28, 2007 10:48 am

Sabre wrote:
peewee wrote:yeah dawson, so now we have to make up these points later, i get tired of telling people 4 points is 4 points whether we get the now or next april, if we get them now there is no need to be making them up next april.

its simple logic that the boss doesn't seem to grasp

The BBC doesn't grasp all Rafa's explanation about Torres benching the other day. The got the part in which he talked about having Torres ready in the last 14 games, but they didn't get the part in which he explained that, if he had played against Birmingham AND Reading, then he would be not fit for Wigan, which are another 3 points..

So why use him against Reading?

by **Ace Ventura** » Fri Sep 28, 2007 10:54 am

Sabre wrote:
peewee wrote:yeah dawson, so now we have to make up these points later, i get tired of telling people 4 points is 4 points whether we get the now or next april, if we get them now there is no need to be making them up next april.

its simple logic that the boss doesn't seem to grasp

The BBC doesn't grasp all Rafa's explanation about Torres benching the other day. The got the part in which he talked about having Torres ready in the last 14 games, but they didn't get the part in which he explained that, if he had played against Birmingham AND Reading, then he would be not fit for Wigan, which are another 3 points.

He added the point that a club that wins is not a one-man club, and he has to trust the other strikers, which he considered similar.

The interview as a whole is worth to listen

Why wouldnt he be fit for Wigan if he played the previous two league games ?
They were a week apart, obviously there was the Porto game in between...but he shouldnt of played in that imo.
I know like Leon has said there are only 6 games in the Champions league group so a bad result there might be more detrimental than a bad result in one league game out of 38, but in the league we had started really well, Torres was scoring goals and we could of kicked on and really put pressure on the others. Also i feel two of the teams in the group are weak and we would go through even if we have lost at Porto.
Torres could easily have played against Pompey...sat out Porto..played against Birmingham sat out the Carling cup game and been fine for Wigan tomorrow.

Even if he played Porto...surely 4 games in almost 3 weeks isnt too much strain on him.

by **redtrader74** » Fri Sep 28, 2007 10:57 am

I would just like to point out that Torres DID play against Pompey and ALSO against Birmingham, i believe just over 30 minutes in each game, and played from the start against Porto, and was poor, like most of the team, in between.

In all the threads post Birmingham, it would seem as though he has been on a sun lounger since the Derby game.

by **Bad Bob** » Fri Sep 28, 2007 11:26 am

Wilhelmsson wrote:Personally I felt Torres, Gerrard and Babel should have started at Fratton Park, I did not accept Rafa’s team selection for that match.

There was something in the Echo the other day where Gerrard admitted that his toe's been really bothering him for the last few matches prior to Reading. I think that suggests that resting him against Pompey after he played in both internationals made sense. On Babel, I'm still not convinced his consistent enough to be truly missed in games where he doesn't play. So, that leaves Torres, who probably should have played.

by **Ace Ventura** » Fri Sep 28, 2007 11:33 am

redtrader74 wrote:I would just like to point out that Torres DID play against Pompey and ALSO against Birmingham, i believe just over 30 minutes in each game, and played from the start against Porto, and was poor, like most of the team, in between.

In all the threads post Birmingham, it would seem as though he has been on a sun lounger since the Derby game.

Disagree, he wasnt poor against Pompey...he should of done better when Gerrard put him in on the left...then nearly made a goal for Voronin out of nothing.

And one thing your forgetting mate...is that by then the game has changed...Pompey were well on top...the whole team looked short on ideas and that affects our attacking intentions.

by **bigmick** » Fri Sep 28, 2007 11:56 am

Of course he should have played against Pompey and I can't really understand why people cling to this notion that they musn't ever admit we made a mistake. Jeez the discussions been done to death so we all know the form. Gerrard was/is a bit injured so probably was rightly not selected. Torres had been involved a physical encounter for his country and was probably a bit tired, but events since have shown beyond a shadow of a doubt that on reflection, with hindsight, knowing what we know now etc etc etc etc he should have played. It doesn't mean that we would have won the game if he had played, but it does mean that we might possibly not have played absolutely sh!te in the next three games if he had played.

I'm amazed sometimes at peoples blind loyalty to a cause on here. Does anybody seriously believe that if Rafa had his time again, knowing exactly how we were going to perform in our next three games that he would have rested Torres like he did? Guys you're allowed to admit it to yourselves, it was a bad call. It doesn't mean Rafa should be sacked, or that it puts us in a position which is impossible, it just means it was a bad call as it turned out.

Please though for Gods sake save us all this "we're saving him for the last fifteen games" nonsense. Rafa rested him because he thought it would help with the games we've coming up NOW, in October. He did so thinking he could get away with it, thinking we would still win the game. Such had been the excellence of our form before the International break and such was our momentum going into the match that we completely dominated the first half hour, it looked like he had called it right. Unfortunately though, as time went on we unravelled and as is often the case even when we brought on the players who actually should have started the game it was by then too late. After twenty minutes I thought he'd get away with it, after ninety he obviously hadn't. A week and three dire performances later it was obvious that it wasn't just a misjudgement but a major blunder. It was a blunder/misjudgement/error though, and to pretend otherwise is a nonsense.

by **redtrader74** » Fri Sep 28, 2007 12:00 pm

Ace Ventura wrote:
redtrader74 wrote:I would just like to point out that Torres DID play against Pompey and ALSO against Birmingham, i believe just over 30 minutes in each game, and played from the start against Porto, and was poor, like most of the team, in between.

In all the threads post Birmingham, it would seem as though he has been on a sun lounger since the Derby game.

Disagree, he wasnt poor against Pompey...he should of done better when Gerrard put him in on the left...then nearly made a goal for Voronin out of nothing.

And one thing your forgetting mate...is that by then the game has changed...Pompey were well on top...the whole team looked short on ideas and that affects our attacking intentions.

Sorry the grammer may not be clear, i meant he was poor against Porto. I just wanted to remind everyone that he DID play in all the 'disasterous' games.

by **Scottbot** » Fri Sep 28, 2007 12:01 pm

I had a big rant after the team selection for the Pompey game and was also dissapointed with the starting line-up for Brum but have been suitably picked up by the midweek display. One look at the table shows we are in a decent position (particularly compared to previous seasons) and i'll bet just about everyone of you would have taken our start if it was offered to you a couple of months ago. I'm a bit surprised the Torres 'should of played against Pompey and Brum' debate is still going on, hasn't everyone got a bit bored of it by now? It's like chasing our own tails. I'm back to my usual acceptance mode, Rafa rotates, always has, always will, simple really, deal with it. It's like it or lump it really. what's the alternative? Sack the most successful manager we've had since King Kenny? Bring in someone else? Yeah right.

by **112-1077774096** » Fri Sep 28, 2007 12:01 pm

well said mick

by **Rockthekop** » Fri Sep 28, 2007 12:15 pm

I have little confidence in our other strikers getting us the goals when Torres doesn't play. We had the same problem last year without Torres. We lacked creativity and we were toothless in attack in many games. All huff and puff and no cigar. Wasn't Torres signed for this very reason? duh! Torres can create a goal out of nothing, he's strong, he can run, shoot, beat a man, head...he`s a world class player. Kuyt is a damn fine footballer but he's been a big disappointment with his goal ratio, he doesn't score enough for whatever reason. Crouch sorry it's time to move on.

by **Sabre** » Fri Sep 28, 2007 12:17 pm

It's not blind faith. It's not saying Rafa doesn't make mistakes. It's putting in the balance whar Rafa says and what other says, and have an opinion.
If the people thinks Torres is world class and Kuyt is a thug, then it's normal to think he made a mistake. But I consider Torres a great player, and so I consider Kuyt, and I don't consider blasphemy to select another player for his attributes.

It's funny then to read the shout "Rafa cannot be criticised". Rather, it seems that what cannot be done is to defend him. Not without being called blind faith, biased, or happy clappy.

So I guess the best thing to do is to say ok, you were all right, Rafa made a mistake,and move on to the next game (For me he did mistakes in the last games, but not the Torres one)

by **bigmick** » Fri Sep 28, 2007 12:28 pm

Sabre wrote:So I guess the best thing to do is to say ok, you were all right, Rafa made a mistake,and move on to the next game.

But my point is Sabes that in the immediate aftermath of the draw at Pompey, it was still debateable whther a big mistake had been made. We got a draw and it was a fair enough result, albeit with an extremly disappointing performance and a large slice of luck.

However there have been three more games since then, and surely by now we can look at it with sobriety and clarity and conclude that we made a mistake? It's not heresy to admit that he made a mistake.

I mean, if anybody can remember that far back I would assume that most people would concede now that the farce at Bramhall Lane on the opening day of last season was a mistake wouldn't they? Surely we don't have to wait until we've finished the season twenty one points behind the league winners to admit we made an error of judgement. Far better to admit it now, learn from it and "move on to the next game". Fortunately, unlike many on here I am certain rafa is well aware that he made a mistake and thank God for that. Torres won't be rested in too many more away league fixtures while we are still in with a shout you mark my words.

by **account deleted by request** » Fri Sep 28, 2007 12:29 pm

I think the problem is just that at the moment Sabre, we dont see Kuyt, Crouch or Veronin as being on the same level as Torres. If our choice had been Bellamy, Kuyt, Crouch or Veronin it wouldn't be seen as disasterous to leave out say Bellamy. Or if our strikers where Torres, Villa, Owen, and Eto'o I dont think it would be seen as much of a problem to leave out Torres.

Its back to the old argument of suitable rotation rather than bringing in Zenden for Gerrard type rotation.

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