Creativity - Do we have enough?

Liverpool Football Club - General Discussion

Postby dawson99 » Wed Sep 26, 2007 8:54 am

Hey,

I don't start many threads, and the ones i do aren't long speeches, just to the point. Do we have enough creativity?
Look at the midfield. Stevie can do his runs, masher can tackle as can momo and Alonso can make a pass, but wheres the little creative spark teams need?
We got Yossi, but he is'nt first team. The wings is different, the runs down the wings arent what im talking about.

What im really saying is how much are we missing garcia and should a: yossi play more, or b: babel play in a more central role.

I just cant see that much difference between masher and momo and we are starting to look pretty stale. Yossi is impressing me but its only really against the smaller teams. Id just like to see some more sparks of magic that can turn a game and we arent showing that lately (in the league)

does this make any sense to anyone?
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Postby account deleted by request » Wed Sep 26, 2007 9:34 am

It makes good sense to me Dawson as I have been saying for a while that we need a creative second striker. Kuyt has a lot of the attributes we look for in a player, hard work, character,good shot , decent in the air etc. Its what he doesnt seem to have that leaves us a bit short at times..... that bit of magic that opens defenses, the incisive pass, quick turn, imagination, touch of flair etc etc. Call it what you like but it all comes down to the same thing, a creative second striker.

I hoped for Tevez who although not perfect, looked about the best available before the season started, but I would settle for Diego for Christmas.

Such creativity does however sometimes have its price to pay ...... inconsistant performance and frustration, as we found out with Garcia.  The consistant ones are the ones that cost £40 million like Kaka or Zidane at his peak, the ones that win titles season after season like Dalglish or Cantona, Beardsley or Bergkamp. The cheaper ones usually come with obvious faults , too small and lightweight like Aimar or Garcia, inconsistant match winners rather than Title winners.

Its one position where pace is relatively unimportant, which is why I presume Rafa has played Kuyt there with limited success. Cantona, Dalglish, Sheringham,Zidane, I think most of us would fancy our chances in a race against any of them. Its quickness of mind not of foot that separates these from the rest.

Rushie had Dalglish to make the passes, the turns, the little flicks, now we need to find one for Torres.
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Postby woof woof ! » Wed Sep 26, 2007 9:37 am

Think a definition of creativity is needed Dawsino . For me it's the ability to spot and execute a telling pass and perform the unexpected. I think we've got the players who fulfill the first criterion but are perhaps lacking in the second .

Garcia was certainly able to do the unexpected , problem was it was so unexpected most of the time it surprised even him  :D .
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Postby Sabre » Wed Sep 26, 2007 9:49 am

woof woof ! wrote:Think a definition of creativity is needed Dawsino . For me it's the ability to spot and execute a telling pass and perform the unexpected. I think we've got the players who fulfill the first criterion but are perhaps lacking in the second .

Garcia was certainly able to do the unexpected , problem was it was so unexpected most of the time it surprised even him  :D .

Agreed on the definition but for 'creativity' IMHO  it's as important as the individual ability of the passer, the quality of the movements of his surrounding players.

If a player doesn't get rid of his marker and doesn't make good runs, it will be difficult to send him a killer pass.

Then there's that creativity Luis Garcia has, which is a hat of tricks, not only for passing, but quick turns, apparently impossible dribbles etc.

ANyhow, my answer to the question is yes, we have enough 'creativity' provided not by one but several players.
Last edited by Sabre on Wed Sep 26, 2007 9:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby woof woof ! » Wed Sep 26, 2007 10:20 am

Sabre wrote:
woof woof ! wrote:Think a definition of creativity is needed Dawsino . For me it's the ability to spot and execute a telling pass and perform the unexpected. I think we've got the players who fulfill the first criterion but are perhaps lacking in the second .

Garcia was certainly able to do the unexpected , problem was it was so unexpected most of the time it surprised even him  :D .

Agreed on the definition but for 'creativity' IMHO  it's as important as the individual ability of the passer, the quality of the movements of his surrounding players.

Agreed .

Gerrards ball through to Torres who then went on to score being a perfect example.
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Postby skatesy » Wed Sep 26, 2007 10:21 am

When I think about this thread and read some of the responses all that I can think of is Benayoun and how that man needs to be on the pitch more. Every game that he has played for Liverpool he has always been top notch. Making wonderful plays, being creative, sending through great passes and then with that great goal today - what more does he have to do to put himself in a leading position to start wide in the midfield? He brings so much creativity to the team he needs to be there. At this point, I would put him ahead of any other winger that we have.
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Postby woof woof ! » Wed Sep 26, 2007 10:34 am

skatesy wrote:When I think about this thread and read some of the responses all that I can think of is Benayoun and how that man needs to be on the pitch more. Every game that he has played for Liverpool he has always been top notch. Making wonderful plays, being creative, sending through great passes and then with that great goal today - what more does he have to do to put himself in a leading position to start wide in the midfield? He brings so much creativity to the team he needs to be there. At this point, I would put him ahead of any other winger that we have.

Certainly one of the more skilfull players in the squad , seems to beat his man with greater ease than out other "wingers" , does however tend to vacate the wide position.  At one point last night he was at left back .  :D
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Postby mungi » Wed Sep 26, 2007 11:04 am

yeh creativity is the ability to create something out of nothing. garcia was most certiainly creative. the most creative player ive seen is zidane.
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Postby bigmick » Wed Sep 26, 2007 11:06 am

skatesy wrote:Every game that he has played for Liverpool he has always been top notch.

I thought he stunk the place out at Pompey TBH. He was by no means on his own, but I thought he was awful there.
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Postby Leonmc0708 » Wed Sep 26, 2007 11:16 am

bigmick wrote:
skatesy wrote:Every game that he has played for Liverpool he has always been top notch.

I thought he stunk the place out at Pompey TBH. He was by no means on his own, but I thought he was awful there.

He has flattered to decieve at times, but I think he might be more of a potent weapon than a creative player.

Creates for himself, not so much others.
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Postby Emerald Red » Wed Sep 26, 2007 11:43 am

Whenever people say we need a second creative striker, then this would mean that Rafa would obviously have to change his tactics dramatically in order to occupy such a possition on the pitch. Say we play a 4 in the mid, which Rafa likes to do, then that possition would have to come at the expense of either one of the current strikers or one of the current mid fielders or vacate another possition. I really don't think it's a viable option, unless we play 5 across the centre, or change our shape much like Wenger's Arsenal when Bergkamp played. Could potentially upset the whole balance of the team imo.

What we need has already been mentioned, and that's for Yossi to be played in a more central role in the hole behind either Torres and only Torres. If it's Kuyt and Torres, then obviously that means we have to go with 3 at the back.

In either case, I really don't see the need for a creative second striker. We've enough to create plenty of goals for this season, and that is already evident. Just because we failed to score in our last two league games with teams that set up stubourn defenses anyway, doesn't mean we are in a goal drought or a goal crisis like we were in Rafa's first season, and parts of last. I think it's just down to the case we've all been moaning about on here about Rafa's reluctance to start with Fernando every game. He must play him all the time when fit, and then tinker with the balance of the mid field in order to get that understanding of how he plays and where he makes his runs for the link up players like Gerrard, Kuyt, and Benayoun. No need for another striker imo.
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Postby stmichael » Wed Sep 26, 2007 12:11 pm

benayoun is a very creative player but he strikes me as another player who should play mainly at home and in european games. in tough away games, he'll get bullied out of it. bring him off the bench by all means but i just can't see him starting in a game such as the derby away in a few weeks for example.
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Postby account deleted by request » Wed Sep 26, 2007 12:17 pm

Emerald Red wrote:Whenever people say we need a second creative striker, then this would mean that Rafa would obviously have to change his tactics dramatically in order to occupy such a possition on the pitch. Say we play a 4 in the mid, which Rafa likes to do, then that possition would have to come at the expense of either one of the current strikers or one of the current mid fielders or vacate another possition. I really don't think it's a viable option, unless we play 5 across the centre, or change our shape much like Wenger's Arsenal when Bergkamp played. Could potentially upset the whole balance of the team imo.

What we need has already been mentioned, and that's for Yossi to be played in a more central role in the hole behind either Torres and only Torres. If it's Kuyt and Torres, then obviously that means we have to go with 3 at the back.

In either case, I really don't see the need for a creative second striker. We've enough to create plenty of goals for this season, and that is already evident. Just because we failed to score in our last two league games with teams that set up stubourn defenses anyway, doesn't mean we are in a goal drought or a goal crisis like we were in Rafa's first season, and parts of last. I think it's just down to the case we've all been moaning about on here about Rafa's reluctance to start with Fernando every game. He must play him all the time when fit, and then tinker with the balance of the mid field in order to get that understanding of how he plays and where he makes his runs for the link up players like Gerrard, Kuyt, and Benayoun. No need for another striker imo.

No mate, Kuyt is trying to play that role at the moment i.e.


Pennant  Gerrard    Mascherano Riise

           Creative second striker
                     Torres

In Spain it is sometimes seen as an attacking midfielder in a 4-5-1 but usually in Britain that would imply some defensive duties which a creative second striker doesnt have. i.e. Kuyt drops back into midfield but no further whereas Gerrard playing a similar role on occasion, drops deeper. No change of tactics required only personnel.
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Postby Effes » Wed Sep 26, 2007 12:18 pm

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Postby Geo » Wed Sep 26, 2007 12:31 pm

s@int you mentioned diego, saw him against real madrid and he looked truely awesome. by far the player who stood out the most for me. how much do u know about him, would he be good enough for us
if we were to buy another player to fill this gap in the team surely one of our centre mids or strikers would have to leave?
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