Liverpool FC Forum

by **yckatbjywtbiastkamb** » Sun Sep 23, 2007 7:11 pm

maximus wrote:
Ciggy wrote:
AB's Red Army wrote:
Ciggy wrote:We have gone from 1st place to 4th now.

Fuming even more so now.

We should get a better indication of where we will end up after ten games or so. To take the table so seriously imo is baffling considering that City are 3rd and Chelsea are 6th.

Relax for fecks sake.

1. Arsenal [6 games] - 16 points
2. Man Utd [7 games] - 14 points
3. Man City [7 games] - 13 points
4. Liverpool [6 games] - 12 points
5. Newcastle [6 games] - 11 points
6. Chelsea [7 games] - 11 points

You think United and Arsenal are going to be dropping points A.B I dont.

Of course they will Ciggs, they will against us definetely for a start 4th place with a game in hand on 2nd and 3rd win that and we jump into second, 4 points behind the a.rse.

I would of taken that before the start of the season for sure, back in the day, the table was meaningless before the 9th, 10th game anyway.

Relax

to be fair to united they`ve hung in there when they`ve been missing arguably their 2 best players.
on top of that (and probably because of that) they havent been firing on all cylinders and out of their 7 league games to date they`ve had 5 tough fixtures (spurs, chelsea, man city away, everton away and portsmouth away).
they look ominous to me, despite a morale sapping loss to city and pompey nicking a point they are right in the mix.

by **woof woof !** » Sun Sep 23, 2007 7:14 pm

Taking stock

When all is said and done , on the upside we're actually discussing how a couple of disappointing results have affected our chances of winning the title , instead of how they've affected our chances of finishing in the top four .

Surely thats progress ?

by **Scottbot** » Sun Sep 23, 2007 7:19 pm

I was pretty furious after the Portsmouth game last weekend and was in despair at the side Rafa sent out at Fratton Park, particularly as i felt it was our toughest away outside of the big 4 games and the bitters. More a case of dissapointed this time around. I don't particularly want to start ranting about Torres because it's already been done by just about everyone in this thread and i'd only be repeating what several others have already posted. With regards to rotation, it does seem to me that most of us are happy (in some cases tolerant) so long as the best and biggest players feature in the majority of games. For most of us that would mean Gerrard, Carra and Reina starting 90% of the time when fit, and to be honest they probably do. they're the untouchables and obviously Rafa is pretty much in agreement with that. The problem is that most fans have now attributed Torres (myself included) with the same status and are aghast when he sin't selected. unfortunatley it's pretty obvious that Rafa has yet to arrive at the same conclusion so we'll just have to like it or lump it in the meantime.

Personally i thought yesterday was a great opportunity to blood a Torres/Crouch partnership up-front and i still maintain that this is and will be our most dangerous partnership. However, If you look at the team yesterday, it's hard to pick much fault aside from Torres's exclusion so the players must also accept some blame and i also think Birmingham deserve a bit more credit than they're getting, it was an excellent defensive display.

I said before the season that i simply wanted us to still be in the running for the title come March and i think a lot of other posters would have been thinking the same thing. The table certainly looks a lot prettier compared to this time last year despite us only being two points better off. The truth is most of us got a little carried away after the Derby battering (particularly as Arsenal just did the same), sensing that this could be our year. I don't think we're as good as the Derby win or as bad as yesterday's draw and i still fancy us to be there or thereabouts come March but maybe not come May.

by **ConnO'var** » Sun Sep 23, 2007 7:19 pm

Didn't want to post yesterday as i was FECKIN' livid. But seriously.... what is there to take stock?.... (not having a pop at the thread btw mick). I'd have thought that the debarcle of the last 2 league games were self explanatory..... Almost all the points that have been "discussed" in the recent threads have been covered before.

Rafa go it wrong yet again. I've heard the reasons/excuses before....
eg.

1. The players didn't play well.
2. Team was good enough to win but still couldn't
3. Not enough flair/ideas to break down defensive minded teams.
4. Over-rotation.
5. Tactics inept, rigid and too defensive minded.
6. Sammi's a great defender but his long balls make us one dimensional.
7. We've lost the "put the fear of god in 'em" element.
etc etc etc.

At the end of the day, all these things are still the responsibility of the manager. These are his players, employing his tactics and based on his selections.

How much more needs to be discussed? The man in charge IS responsible.

Unless and until Rafa changes his bullheaded approach to team selection (tinkering), tactics and attitude to smaller teams, IMHO, we'll never win the premiership....

We had a wonderfull opportunity to pull away from Chelsea and Man U and still have a game in hand but we squandered it. It means absolutely nothing to me that Chelsea and Man U have dropped points too. I couldn't give a flying feck what they do. The barometer of LFC is not how these other clubs perform but how WE perform. Just because they dropped points againt smaller teams DOES NOT mean that it's OK for us to follow suit. No sense in dressing up these fecked results any which way...... So what if we've not lost any game yet? Since the introduction of 3 points for a win, a draw is no good against the weaker teams. It is precisely that attitude for settling for less that has gotten us mired in mediocrity....If we drew all 38 games, we'd still be likely to get relegated despite not losing a single game. We need to win these games... even more so when it's @ home. Resting players after 6 games?? For christ sakes.... why the hell are we paying so much for them then?

Sort it out Rafa...... Booing of our own players by the fans at Anfield is unheard of in my time......

Else you'll lose even more of the fans confidence.....

by **red37** » Sun Sep 23, 2007 7:35 pm

ConnO'var wrote:Didn't want to post yesterday as i was FECKIN' livid. But seriously.... what is there to take stock?.... (not having a pop at the thread btw mick). I'd have thought that the debarcle of the last 2 league games were self explanatory..... Almost all the points that have been "discussed" in the recent threads have been covered before.

Rafa go it wrong yet again. I've heard the reasons/excuses before....
eg.

1. The players didn't play well.
2. Team was good enough to win but still couldn't
3. Not enough flair/ideas to break down defensive minded teams.
4. Over-rotation.
5. Tactics inept, rigid and too defensive minded.
6. Sammi's a great defender but his long balls make us one dimensional.
7. We've lost the "put the fear of god in 'em" element.
etc etc etc.

At the end of the day, all these things are still the responsibility of the manager. These are his players, employing his tactics and based on his selections.

How much more needs to be discussed? The man in charge IS responsible.

Unless and until Rafa changes his bullheaded approach to team selection (tinkering), tactics and attitude to smaller teams, IMHO, we'll never win the premiership....

We had a wonderfull opportunity to pull away from Chelsea and Man U and still have a game in hand but we squandered it. It means absolutely nothing to me that Chelsea and Man U have dropped points too. I couldn't give a flying feck what they do. The barometer of LFC is not how these other clubs perform but how WE perform. Just because they dropped points againt smaller teams DOES NOT mean that it's OK for us to follow suit. No sense in dressing up these fecked results any which way...... So what if we've not lost any game yet? Since the introduction of 3 points for a win, a draw is no good against the weaker teams. It is precisely that attitude for settling for less that has gotten us mired in mediocrity....If we drew all 38 games, we'd still be likely to get relegated despite not losing a single game. We need to win these games... even more so when it's @ home. Resting players after 6 games?? For christ sakes.... why the hell are we paying so much for them then?

Sort it out Rafa...... Booing of our own players by the fans at Anfield is unheard of in my time......

Else you'll lose even more of the fans confidence.....

Good post mate.

by **ivor_the_injun** » Sun Sep 23, 2007 9:38 pm

I think pretty much everyone in this thread is off their t*ts. ConnO'var's post above is the first decent post in over 3 pages.

Torres was rubbish against Porto. Yes, so was the rest of the team, but up front is competitive and we have four strikers that are all scoring. As many of us said when we looked at the squad going into the season - one bad game and you'll have teammates breathing down your neck, and your place should rightly be in jeopardy. Just because Torres cost £20m+ doesn't mean he's immune to that sort of treatment. The money's paid now, and his price tag is immaterial. If Voronin scores 10 in a game, do you drop him for Torres purely because he cost f*ck all and Torres cost a fortune? Of course you don't. Pick your team based on form and fitness, as always. Torres was sh*t in midweek and got dropped. Rafa was spot on there for me. Too right he looked good when he came on - he's hungry and wants his place back.

Kuyt scored in an otherwise poor performance against Porto, so rightly played against Brum. He was sh*t vs Brum, and now Crouch should get his chance to start vs Wigan.

Voronin was poor against Brum, and Torres came on and looked lively. Torres should thus start against Wigan.

As for all this balls about over-rotating - it's not like he swapped half the team out. Other than Arbeloa at right back and quibbling one of the strikers, I fail to see the wholesale changes that people are getting at.

Let's face it, the 11 that started vs Brum was easily good enough to get the 3 points. That they didn't wasn't due to the absence of Torres. They played poorly. End of. Ask questions about Rafa's tactics by all means, but it's not like he sent a side out and asked them to pass the ball to the other team.

by **puroresu** » Sun Sep 23, 2007 10:03 pm

Hey peeps. Long time no post. I am disappointed with last 3 performances. The attacking again seems not to have moved on from last year. Still far to many long balls and slow passing. We dont move the ball quick enough. We make it easy for teams to defend againt us as we play such a rigid 4-4-2. Our full backs offer little and our wide men need to step it up badly!! Its all good saying teams come to anfield with 10 behind the ball but all the top sides have to deal with that. the way to beat that is to move the ball quickly and with good movement.

I believe one striker has to play the majority of the games. Torres has to play as often as possible to adjust. Dont try and kee them all happy for the sake of it.

Funny how many wrote arsenal off just cos they lost henry. That side is playing amazing football!!! A joy to watch.

To top off such a rubbish result I got injured playing football yesterday. Broke two metatarsals in my right foot and now my foots in plaster. Got tickets for the reading game and cant go cos of my foot. :censored:

!!!

by **bigmick** » Sun Sep 23, 2007 10:08 pm

I asked people to calm down in the thread starter, and I think those who are calling for Rafa's head certainly should. Just to clarify though, those who are annoyed about rotation and concerned about the accumulative detrimental effects it has on the fluency and rhythm of a team are entirely justified in my opinion.

Now although there is much dispute on the boards, one thing cannot be argued about I think. We don't look to be quite as good a team as we did in the first few games of the season. I don't think anyone would argue with that, we don't have the fluency, fluidity of movement nor do we posess anything like the same menace going forward. The defence looks better if anything, but as an attacking unit clearly we are not firing. Now it's also fair to say, that this seems to be the case almost regardless of who is playing. It's not all about Torres, or Babel or Gerrard or anybody else, we just look a bit toothless up top right now. No doubt we will again at some point, but we just don't have it at the moment. I reckon nobody would argue with that bit.

The crux of course is why have we gone from that free-flowing expansice team who was clearly enjoying their football, to the display we saw against Birmingham? Now it could be International breaks which certainly don't help, the departure of the managers right-hand man, the injury and subsequent loss of form of our captain (which I personally has had a massive effect) and of course it could be rotation. It could also be none of the above, and maybe it's just one of those things, coincidence in effect. No football team plays well in every single match i don't care who you are.

My hunch though, (and I have the distinct impression that more and more people are beginning to come to this conclusion) is that the rotation of personel on the scale we have seen has a huge impact on the way the team plays. Going by Ciggy's figures in the other thread (which are no doubt correct), since the first game of the season away at Villa where Rafa picked what we considered at the time to be his strongest team, we have made 42 changes in eight games. say it again slowly and take a deep breath. Forty two changes in eight games. Now somebody will no doubt come on and point out that some were forced, some were sensible "restings" for European games and the like but come on, in all seriousness does anybody think that the eleven players you send out can play with fluency, anticipation and understanding under those circumstances?

Tompkins and his followers made the point that Man Utd and Chelsea rotate just as much. Actually, I think he pointed out after much research that if you didn't include games played on a Wednesday against teams which had an E in their name, and took away the number you first thought of, we actually rotated LESS than those teams. I wonder though (and please believe me I don't know the answer to this) have we rotated more or less than them so far. I've a hunch we might have.

Just as a footnote. That "best eleven" which won at Villa, went on to play Chelsea off the park at anfield only to be robbed by a silly refereeing decision. That was the last time we saw that particular permutation to date.

by **ivor_the_injun** » Sun Sep 23, 2007 10:26 pm

Those rotation figures in the past two weeks are inflated because of the injuries to Alonso and Agger, plus the fact that Gerrard was being eased back in as a sub following the international break. He's clearly going to keep rotating the strikers, so people need to get over that.

The stats in all competitions are pretty meaningless. It's on a week-to-week basis in the Prem that really matters.

I argue strongly that the problem at the moment isn't rotation - we've lost our ball retention and fluency, and unless we get those elements in our game back soon, we'd better get used to that 4th spot.

Personally I think this is a blip, and not a massively costly one at that. The argument can be made that title-winning teams get through blips with 90th minute winners, which is something we haven't got in our armoury right now, but these are draws we're quibbling, not losses, and that represents a vague progress in itself over recent seasons. Dropping two points against lesser teams is frustrating, but it's not as fatal as dropping all three proved early last season.

by **heimdall** » Sun Sep 23, 2007 10:26 pm

The problem with the team is Gerrard, he is playing sh1t at the moment, when he was injured we played much better, put him on the bench not Torres.
Before you all start on me I'm not saying Gerrard is sh1t, he is one of the most amazing players I've ever seen but at he moment he is rubbish so he shouldn't play, come on Rafa show some cahones and drop him from the team or put him back out right, center midfield doesn't seem to be suiting him!! :;):

by **Sabre** » Sun Sep 23, 2007 11:34 pm

I would have expected to read an anti rotation rant if we had played a Sissoko yesterday instead of a Gerrard.

Rafa could have done so, after all, Gerrard played in midweek, it was obvious he's coming back from an injury, and, in fact, Gerrard did notice in the second half the effort done through out the week.

Yesterday was a game in which many thought it was a game to rest a lot of players. We didn't rest many of them, and we didn't win. So blame Rafa for not playing Torres (I agree Ivor the Injun in his reasoning BTW), blame him for wrong tactics, blame him for whatever you want, but not for rotation. If someone thinks that yesterday was a game for rests, then rotation shouldn't have affected us nor being mentioned.

Lacked fluency? it's obvious. Reasons? that's not obvious. There are several possibilities, rotations (I disagree), not the right mentality after an european night, tired players from Oporto game, players coming from an injury, not being able to prepare the game properly, Pako, only to name a few. God knows the real reason, but I don't think we can know it for sure from where we observe (the sofa).

Many coaches like Rijkaard has explained it's difficult to motivate the players after an european night. To face an uncomfortable Osasuna instead of a Werder Bremen. I think there was some of this yesterday, we thought we should win that easily, the goal didn't reach, and we got impatient. Should we had scored a goal early, probably we'd be talking about a 3-0, and how good it's to play the strongest and most compatible pair in the midfield and not tinkering with the midfield. But we didn't read the game well.

No doubt yesterday there was something wrong. Rafa's failure to motivate, players failure to motivate, tactics (one of our two strikers didn't do much), fluency, but rotation? Not in my view. If any, yesterday game was a game for rotationalists highlight the point of rotation, not the opposite. Excuse me for sticking to my guns, but a bad week or two weeks won't change my mind. However it will if at the end of the season we are not competing for the title, I promise that.

I was wrong in one thing, I did think that the credit of the manager would last longer than a bad patch of a week. Bit dissapointing to see people asking Rafa's head. If another one came and won everything I'd sack Rafa myself. But I know for a fact the new manager would have problems to work with a squad he hasn't designed and would have bad games aswell, no matter how good he is (I don't know infalible managers).

Anyhow, believe it or not, my initial will when i started this post wasn't rotation debate, in fact, I consider that battle lost, I'd never convince you, and that's fair enough.

The reason for this post was that I want to congratulate Bigmick and Willhemsson for their opinions (1). When we were in massive euphoria they argued with the happy clappy brigade. When we have a bad patch they tell the other camp (the ones asking Rafa's head) it's not that bad neither and to calm down. Probably they're right, as they're in the middle of the two positions, although I keep disagreeing in the rotation thingy.

(1) Maybe Willhemsson overreacted calling some decent opinions suicidal, but I value the fact he's not on a specific camp.

by **account deleted by request** » Mon Sep 24, 2007 2:21 am

Well done Sabre, remind me to congratulate the next two faced little :censored:

with his head stuck up his backside that has a go at you for no reason.

by **Reg** » Mon Sep 24, 2007 2:32 am

I hope the players have got more balls than some of the folks on this forum.

Talk about a bunch of panic merchants.........

by **112-1077774096** » Mon Sep 24, 2007 2:53 am

rotation, rotation, rotation.

personally i thought it wouldn't be too much of a problem this season as we had more class in the squad to blend right in, as you all know last season i was dead against it.

it seems however i was wrong about this season, a thought entered my head that i never really considered before, its all very well choosing the top players for the big games, against the likes of chelsea and man utd and arsenal, and also select them for some other games. but when we have played our full strength team lately they looked liked strangers, i never considered that its all very well playing the full strength team as they would deal with anything, but it seems they can't as they are like strangers to each other because there is no stability in the team, there is no motivation and no desire to perform.

tell me why crouch is under performing? i know why, because he is dropped or on the bench when last season he was our top scorer, tell me why he doesn't look , why should he?

of course in public the players say its great and they understand, do any of you think they say this in private? of course they don't and it won't be long before player power kicks in, we are not different from other clubs, the same mentality applies to our players as it does with other teams.

think about how frustrating it is for players, think about torres, whats going on there, 22 million to sit on the bench, or on the other hand have we paid 22 million for a player who can only manage one game a week? I am sure he can manage more but he isn't being allowed to.

i say on the second page in here rafa will very soon loose the trust of the fans if he carries on making the same mistakes, houllier did the same and was too stubborn to change, players out of position etc. he is trying to be to clever.

for those of you who say he is a tactical genius, then what does that make harry redknap and steve bruce, they both out thought the genius in the past 7 days and both must have been delighted when they saw torres on the bench, or gerrard in the first game on the bench.

rafa is doing other managers work for them and his stubbornness will cost us again this season, i know its a long season blah blah blah but we all know how hard it can be to make points up, we had the run on the mancs this season with their poor start but we haven't taken advantage of it.

blame international games, blame injuries, blame whatever you want guys, but the fault lies at rafas door while he makes mystifying decisions about team selection and tactics. On saturday we had no pace up front, we had kuyt whose finishing is poor and i watched the game and i have to say his first touch is a complete joke, hard work is not enough, he needs more. babel is not a winger and he never gets down the line, he wants to cut in all the time. i have no problem with arbeloa or the rest of the back 4 on saturday (even though they created some chances).

my problem is rafas insistence that he is doing the right thing when results and performances prove otherwise. we have dropped 4 points against mid table teams already, we should beat wigan and then some idiots on here will say "i told you so, in rafa we trust blah blah blah"

well sorry guys but i don't trust him at the moment to make the right decisions, I am not saying get rid of him, but someone needs to have a word in his ear before we are also rans again this season, we have just seen a successful manager get the boot and I don't think G&H will tolerate failure as they want a return on their money, I don't think his job will be as safe as he thinks if we start going in the wrong direction or continue playing dross like we have this last week.

so is criticism justified here? damn right it is, he picks the team, he picks the tactics, he made the decision to let our star striker sit on the bench for 2 hours out of the last 3 ours league football when we were struggling to score, and why does he make that decision? so he can say he makes the decisions and nobody else.

f*cking stupidity of the highest order, i saw his interview where he says we need more goals, no sh*t sherlock, we started well with scoring, so many different players, but at the moment they aint doing it so why leave the one guy who might on the bench?

by **ivor_the_injun** » Mon Sep 24, 2007 3:25 am

Some good points Peewee, but a manager can only do so much.

Rafa could send a team out with the best tactics in the world, but if the players can't string passes together between one another, I can't help but think some of this anger and blame is misplaced.

Players throughout the team are underperforming. That's the crux of the problem.

I am absolutely adamant that the team Rafa put out could and should have been good enough to beat Birmingham. Let's face it, Babel and Voronin aside it's much the same group of players that started for us in the majority of games towards the end of last season.

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Time to take stock. - Calm down everyone ffs.

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