Liverpool FC Forum

by **Sabre** » Sun Sep 23, 2007 11:26 am

Lee2k6 wrote:
babu wrote:
Vato1979 wrote:Rotation??? yes pls !! We need a coach rotation ! ! ! Sack Rafa for leaving Torres on the bench.
Football is big business where you cannot make mistakes like this...
I cannot believe we didn't win that game

this gets my vote for 'muppet post of the year'

gets my vote n all

anyway i was talkin to me mate lastnight in the pub about whether Torres will get to start the Carling cup game on Tuesday an that might have bin one of the reasons he was rested.

With all due respect to the Carling Cup and deeply rooted tradition of cups, I don't think Rafa considers a Carling Cup game more than a league game.

Rafa put a decent effort on bringing Torres here. He asked the board to put the money over the table. So he knows better than anybody what Torres can provide to this team. But I think Rafa is sincere when he says there's quality and competition upfront, and he preffered other attributes upfront and rest a player that played midweek.

People was expecting Torres as the Messiah, but they'll get another persepctive when they watch the team doing another dull game (it will happen inevitably) with Torres playing (it will happen inevitably).

Bad games will happen. Bad games with Torres will happen. But we must not lose confidence so soon. I don't ask for happy days reaction, I just ask giving Rafa and the lads a bit of confidence. We have a better squad, and among other reasons that's why we have more points than yesteryear. We'll have more bad games, or bad weeks but I think this squad is good enough to compete for the league. And they will.

by **Ciggy** » Sun Sep 23, 2007 11:32 am

The new owners must be saying to themselves why have we forked out 26 million pound for a player that has been sat on the bench the last two league games.

I know I would and I would be having a word with Benitez about it.

by **66-1112520797** » Sun Sep 23, 2007 11:44 am

I just ask giving Rafa and the lads a bit of confidence. We have a better squad, and among other reasons that's why we have more points than yesteryear. We'll have more bad games, or bad weeks but I think this squad is good enough to compete for the league. And they will.

Why do you ask for patience Sabre, he's been our manager for three years and continue's to rotate. Its not going to work I dont give a f.uck about what happened in Spain either.

He is the new Claudio Ranaire, and we all knew what happened to him, We were going great guns at the beginning and the international games may of disrupted us, but only slightly though. Rafa is in danger of also doing to Torres what he did last season to Crouch as Mick said earlier, and thats rotate the lad out of form. So why is patience needed, its not Rafa has got to stick with a core of players and play em. As Ciggy said Reina, Agger, Carra, Alonso, Gerrard, Mascha and Torres should be the spine of the team. But he's wrapping Torres up in cotton wool for no reason, and Torres didnt look happy about it. So what if he played midweek, so did most of the other players stop saying that its not valid mate, no excuses.

Quite frankly, Portsmouth especially Rafa f.ucked up, yesterday though the team f.ucked up.

by **inglis5** » Sun Sep 23, 2007 11:46 am

Ciggy wrote:The new owners must be saying to themselves why have we forked out 26 million pound for a player that has been sat on the bench the last two league games.

I know I would and I would be having a word with Benitez about it.

That's exactly the point, Ciggy.

How can we be focusing on the league if our most expensive signing and best forward is on the bench for the last two league games!

I've always been a defender of Rafa's rotation policy and I still believe that rotation - to an extent - is important in retaining the sharpness and fitness of the team. However I feel that rotating for the sake of it is counter-productive.

Rafa is an excellent manager and his understanding of his opponents is second to none, this means that he picks the side that he thinks will best exploit teams weaknesses and guards against their strengths... what I'd prefer to see though is teams worrying about us and trying to figure out how to stop us playing. Man U, Chelsea and Arsenal all won the league playing their best teams week in and week out.

The point of having a good squad is that if you lose a player through injury (or if he needs a rest through fatigue) then you have a replacement ready to come in. It's great that we now have Vornonin / Crouch to step up when needed but that should only ever be in a less important competition (FA or Carling Cup) or if Torres is unfit to play!

To not play him for two Premier League games in a row (especially when we have a sh*tty Carling Cup game in mid-week) is ludicrous!

by **66-1112520797** » Sun Sep 23, 2007 11:50 am

Also, I can see similar instances where Sven Goran Erikksons reign as England manager failed to Rafa not getting us the title.

Sven had the players to possibly reach a WC final, but when it came down to it was inept of any tactical knowledge played by the boys. It was him as manger preventing the team going forward.

Same with Rafa, he's got the players and although unlike Sven has tactical knowledge to the highest dergree, but his stubborness to continue with his own methods of rotation will be his downfall and our hinderance to stopping the boys winning the league.

Basically Sven let his players down miserably and Rafa is danger of doing the same.

by **yckatbjywtbiastkamb** » Sun Sep 23, 2007 12:05 pm

it wasnt that long ago that we used to fight tooth and nail to scrape into fourth place.
i know its frustrating to drop points at home especially when one of your best players is sitting on the bench but we`ve got to let rafa do his thing.
he took over a club devoid of confidence, a team that literally couldnt string three passes together, a team who`s style was the laughing stock of the league and a team full of expensive flops that had little or no re-sale value leaving the then chairman skint........
and people are moaning because we are second in the league?
yes i`m dissapointed too but its all relative, i`d rather be in this situation than the situation we were in a few years ago.
if you offered the shell shocked fans in the latter half of the houllier reign three seasons were you win the champions league, appear in another final, win the f.a cup, appear in the carling cup final, qualify for the champions league in all those seasons (certainly not a shoe in under houllier) and then have a team that starts the following season with genuine title asperations they would have bitten your hand off, infact some would have cried with joy and disbelief.
and thats without showing them how the likes of biscan, traore and diao will be replaced by the likes of torres, alonso and mascherano and gerrard staying to commit his long term future to the club.
yes i`m dissapointed but i`m also very very grateful to rafa benitez.

by **metalhead** » Sun Sep 23, 2007 12:15 pm

Bamaga man wrote:Also, I can see similar instances where Sven Goran Erikksons reign as England manager failed to Rafa not getting us the title.

Sven had the players to possibly reach a WC final, but when it came down to it was inept of any tactical knowledge played by the boys. It was him as manger preventing the team going forward.

Same with Rafa, he's got the players and although unlike Sven has tactical knowledge to the highest dergree, but his stubborness to continue with his own methods of rotation will be his downfall and our hinderance to stopping the boys winning the league.

Basically Sven let his players down miserably and Rafa is danger of doing the same.

Thats were I disagree with you Bamaga, Rafa hasn't got the players yet, I don't think he has! I still think he is short of 1 or 2 quality players, starting with a center back and another striker to play with Torres. Yesterday showed me that Voronin and Kuyt are not good enough to start every week, Kuyt is a fantastic squad player, thats what he will always be, but Voronin is not good enough, despite scoring 3 goals till now. Rafa should have started with Torres, I agree that he has skills to unlock those narrow defence, but what IF Torres played and we still ended up 0-0? What would people would have said then(using the IF theory)? IMO, yesterday we had a solid back four, a solid midfield but a very weak attack, where we should have had Torres playing.

by **66-1112520797** » Sun Sep 23, 2007 12:24 pm

If Torres played and it ended 0-0 then its only fair to critise the players, in saying that though the players were left for blame yesterday, but Rafa always leaves himself open for critisism unfortunately.

While we may not have the squad to win the league I honestly think we're pretty close to running the other teams to the title. But like I said Rafa could be the stumbling block himself and not the players.

by **Ciggy** » Sun Sep 23, 2007 12:33 pm

Bamaga man wrote:but Rafa always leaves himself open for critisism unfortunately.

But like I said Rafa could be the stumbling block himself and not the players.

True on both accounts.

This is not La Liga and what worked there is NOT working here 4th season in charge now, when is he going to realise his mistakes by picking the wrong team are costing us points?

I cant even be @rsed with that CL either this season, Liverpool as a top club should'nt be finishing 3rd or 4th in this league.

by **Owzat** » Sun Sep 23, 2007 12:44 pm

Effes wrote:
bigmick wrote:Firstly, the team Rafa picked was pretty sensible when all said and done, and given the personel I would have expected us to win very comfortably against an awful Birmingham team (who will certainly finish in the bottom four in my view). I know many people would like to have seen Torres from the start, but make no mistake the team on this occasion was largely sensible.

Sorry Mick, but not picking your best striker isn't sensible.

Rafa's reason for not playing him is bollox.

The only rotation going on should be for injuries and whoever is off form.

I'm a best 11 man - what's the point in drawing today in order to maybe gain points later on in the season.
Yea, Man U cokked up at home to Reading, but why should we expect the same?

Birmingham have been a bit of a bogey side at Anfield, we needed to wipe that out today.

Starting with Torres on the bench was no way to go about it.

On the game, it was a defend at all costs approach by Bruce and let's face it the fact that he's PROUD of that says it all. We should have created more and scored at least one REGARDLESS who started so rotation isn't perhaps the issue here, but why did we fail to score against a yo-yo team like Birmingham?

As for rotation, well I was annoyed we didn't play our strongest side against pompey as we could have afforded to lose in Porto and nearly did with our 'stronger' XI. The worry for me is perhaps Rafa still prioritises the Champions League and at such a ridiculously early stage when defeats mean diddly.

But in real terms he could have started with Torres for two reasons - it's the Carling Cup next and I doubt we'll field a full strength side and the team is young ffs. I'd be shocked if Coppell plays his best side given their lowly league position and predicament, Rafa won't be keen to play Hyypia or Carra with little cover available should either get injured. The side is young, the older players are Carra, Hyypia and Finnan who pretty much don't get subbed and the younger players should have the energy. All we're doing is disrupting any form we find and three draws on the bounce shows it. Torres is what? 22? If he can't play two or three games in a row then who can? Kuyt seems to play more than most and longer than most so the whole situation doesn't add up.

It was a game we should have won, the other two weren't so much. I fear Rafa thinks Crouch and Voronin are as capable as Kuyt and Torres, that we had 60% possession and failed to score one goal says it all. And why does Crouch think he can take an extra touch in the box when time is precious? He should have shot first time, he ain't good enough to take unneccessary extra touches in situations like that

by **maypaxvobiscum** » Sun Sep 23, 2007 12:55 pm

just play the reserve in the league cup.
i dont mind getting knocked out of all the cup competitions
as long as we focus entirely on the league
we may end up with nothing but at least we will be closer
as much as i like rafa i hate it how stubborn he is.
never one to admit his mistakes

by **account deleted by request** » Sun Sep 23, 2007 1:20 pm

Last season our start was a disaster, pretty much everyone agrees that. After 6 games last season we had only 10 points, this season after our Title winning start we have 12 points. Not much of an improvement really is it. We need to kick on if we are not going to be left watching Arsenal the Mancs and Chelsea battling it out again for the title, and us left fighting for a CL place.

by **JC_81** » Sun Sep 23, 2007 2:00 pm

To be honest I still don't really feel like 'calming down' after yesterday's game. I think as fans we're entitled to be pretty angry at what was a major blunder by our manager and also a very below par performance from the players that were picked.

I'm still a fan thats behind our manager and believes that he has improved our club since he took over, but that doesn't mean he's beyond criticism, and when he deserves it I won't be afraid to say so.

Torres should have started yesterday, as he should have against Portsmouth because he's in form. We shouldn't be changing half of our outfield players from game to game as Benitez has done several times this season. We should be playing our strongest team in the league at this stage of the season, because quite frankly no player should be needing a rest yet.

It's very easy for some posters on here to try and take the moral high ground and accuse the rest of us of having 'knee jerk' reactions and refer to comments made in the match thread as 'embarrassing', but the fact is you are deluding yourselves and papering over the cracks. The truth is we will not win the league as long as the manager continues to rotate to the extreme. But we do have a squad of players that is capable of winning the league this season.

Benitez has now spent a lot of money and if we don't at least challenge for the title this season, the owners will want answers and so will the fans. Unless he wants to be under serious pressure come the end of the season, he needs to start getting some decisions right.

by **The Manhattan Project** » Sun Sep 23, 2007 2:06 pm

It seems that there are two ways of approaching selection.

1- Rotate players to keep them fresh, so they don't get injured, but by doing so, the flow of the team from game to game is disrupted.

2- Retain the same basic players to not disrupt the flow of the team, but risk them getting injured and burned out. When an injury occurs, only THEN should a player be rotated.

by **account deleted by request** » Sun Sep 23, 2007 2:22 pm

Xabi Alonso admits he's upset with the way former assistant manager Pako Ayesteran has left Liverpool.

Alonso told the News of the World: "I spoke to him when we knew he was not going to continue. It's normal as we were very close.

"It was difficult for all the players, not just me. We have been working so close to him for a long time. It has not been easy.

"The training has changed a little bit because we had been working for him for three seasons and the start of this season.

"It will take a little bit of time to get used to the new situation because we were really close to him at all the training sessions.

"Time will tell how it goes for us. We can't look back, we have to carry on our early form"

I know people will say that we drew against Pompey last season with Pako, but since then we have spent over £35million on new forwards. People on here have been laughing cos Chelsea have lost Maureen, maybe they should have been worrying instead about us losing Pako and the disruption it may have caused.

"Rafa treats his players like pawns in a game of chess" - Steven Gerrard

Pako was the one the players were close to, the one they worked with every day.

Just searching for an excuse for our recent performances really, but maybe this is a valid reason.

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Time to take stock. - Calm down everyone ffs.

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