Time to take stock. - Calm down everyone ffs.

Liverpool Football Club - General Discussion

Postby bigmick » Sat Sep 22, 2007 11:18 pm

Just a couple of things here and apologies to all for starting a new thread. Ther thing is though, a fair bit of this doesn't refer to the Birmingham game so I thought I'd go here and let everyone vent their anger in there.

I really think people need to calm down a bit with the "sack Rafa" nonsense. Equally the "we're not going to win the league" stuff is very premature, in my opinion anyway. It's on the back of a dodgy little spell admittedly, but we are still right in amongst it even if we have just about thrown away our really good start.

As for the rotation stuff, I thought the game against Birmingham threw up a couple of interesting points. Firstly, the team Rafa picked was pretty sensible when all said and done, and given the personel I would have expected us to win very comfortably against an awful Birmingham team (who will certainly finish in the bottom four in my view). I know many people would like to have seen Torres from the start, but make no mistake the team on this occasion was largely sensible. Those gunning for Rafa on this particular occasion are calling in wrong in my opinion.

So the taking stock stuff. Well clearly the defence is absolutely rock-solid at the moment and we have a platform there to launch a serious title challenge. We have (in my opinion anyway) the best goalkeeper in the League as well so we have two of the classic ingredients in place to have a real go at the title. As the song goes, we've got the best midfield in the World and we quite possibly have, while up top we have Torres who is probably World-Class plus three other decent strikers. Allied to that we have a young kid who could be anything but is taking his time to get going.

We're almost into October and we're still in with a chance of winning the League (which feels like an achievement in itself to be honest) and now is not the time to panic.

I'll conclude though with revisiting rotation (surprise surprise) and a reiteration that it is not a numbers game. I've always said that one performance leads to another for a football team, they are intrinsically linked. Pundits call it "form" and it therefore follows that those teams and individuals in good "form" can usually reproduce good performances without giving it too much thought, until someone or something knocks them out of their stride. It is precisely this reason which has made me consistently be an advocate for not disturbing the equilebrium of a team unless it is properly necessary. My hunch has always been that a football team at its best is a well-oiled machine, and if you take out one of the component parts and swap it for something similar don't be surprised that given time the machine starts to rattle a bit. One game leads into another.

Now whether or not you choose to believe in Rafa and his rotational revolution, few would argue that we don't look quite as fluent right now as we did at the start of the season. It might be the International break, it might be injuries, it might be tiredness and it might be the jetlag after the long haul flights from Albania. Whatever it is though, the fact that the fluency isn't there is beyond dispute. Now to get it back, we'll probably start playing our strongest team again for a bit. It might be an idea this time to take a bit of a gamble on the players being a bit "tired", and leave that team in place for a wee bit longer than we did last time.
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Postby Kharhaz » Sat Sep 22, 2007 11:23 pm

Rafas all for the rotation policy and from what I know he always has been. I think although its not working to its maximum effect it will do once hes got the basis to the squad that he wants, as in, once all his players are used to playing with whoever is in that squad then it will be perfect every game. Its like hes trying to combine 2 squads of 11 into one team. This season he has the players he wants and is happy with what he has. Not much else is needed imo. Once all the players are capable of knowing what every player can do the rotation policy will work.
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Postby bigmick » Sat Sep 22, 2007 11:29 pm

Well it's not a rotation thread Kharaz so I'm not going to get too involved in it. Suffice to say though that in my opinion , our team is good enough to win the league THIS season. It is in my opinion though not a possibility that we will do it if we change the team every week, chopping and changing as we go. If we however give the team a chance to find some rhythm, with only essential changes we can do it i believe.
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Postby Effes » Sat Sep 22, 2007 11:33 pm

bigmick wrote:Firstly, the team Rafa picked was pretty sensible when all said and done, and given the personel I would have expected us to win very comfortably against an awful Birmingham team (who will certainly finish in the bottom four in my view). I know many people would like to have seen Torres from the start, but make no mistake the team on this occasion was largely sensible.

Sorry Mick, but not picking your best striker isn't sensible.

Rafa's reason for not playing him is bollox.

The only rotation going on should be for injuries and whoever is off form.

I'm a best 11 man - what's the point in drawing today in order to maybe gain points later on in the season.
Yea, Man U cokked up at home to Reading, but why should we expect the same?

Birmingham have been a bit of a bogey side at Anfield, we needed to wipe that out today.

Starting with Torres on the bench was no way to go about it.
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Postby Kharhaz » Sat Sep 22, 2007 11:33 pm

I agree but looking at post for todays match, all you get are people bitching about rotation. Portsmouth match, porto, today !
I also agree that we do have a good enough squad to win the league, and if this is our period of negative results, bearing in mind we havent actually lost yet then thats fine by me ! already we are making great strides.
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Postby account deleted by request » Sat Sep 22, 2007 11:48 pm

I am not mad a Rafa or the players I am just very upset and don't know who to blame for that performance. We couldn't break down a very organised defence AGAIN, we need more composure with our passing in the final third and our forwards to do a little more. Onwards and hopefully upwards.

I am starting to worry about Kuyt, this should have been his stage today. Scored and a good hardworking performance midweek, looked slow again today and it seems the only way he looks to find space is dropping deep. I'm just very very disappointed, virtually our first team today (whats left of it)
and no-one looked like creating much at all. I shouldn't really pick him out as the whole team seemed bereft of ideas after 15 mins.
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Postby Well Red » Sun Sep 23, 2007 12:56 am

bigmick wrote:Just a couple of things here and apologies to all for starting a new thread. Ther thing is though, a fair bit of this doesn't refer to the Birmingham game so I thought I'd go here and let everyone vent their anger in there.

I really think people need to calm down a bit with the "sack Rafa" nonsense. Equally the "we're not going to win the league" stuff is very premature, in my opinion anyway. It's on the back of a dodgy little spell admittedly, but we are still right in amongst it even if we have just about thrown away our really good start.

As for the rotation stuff, I thought the game against Birmingham threw up a couple of interesting points. Firstly, the team Rafa picked was pretty sensible when all said and done, and given the personel I would have expected us to win very comfortably against an awful Birmingham team (who will certainly finish in the bottom four in my view). I know many people would like to have seen Torres from the start, but make no mistake the team on this occasion was largely sensible. Those gunning for Rafa on this particular occasion are calling in wrong in my opinion.

So the taking stock stuff. Well clearly the defence is absolutely rock-solid at the moment and we have a platform there to launch a serious title challenge. We have (in my opinion anyway) the best goalkeeper in the League as well so we have two of the classic ingredients in place to have a real go at the title. As the song goes, we've got the best midfield in the World and we quite possibly have, while up top we have Torres who is probably World-Class plus three other decent strikers. Allied to that we have a young kid who could be anything but is taking his time to get going.

We're almost into October and we're still in with a chance of winning the League (which feels like an achievement in itself to be honest) and now is not the time to panic.

I'll conclude though with revisiting rotation (surprise surprise) and a reiteration that it is not a numbers game. I've always said that one performance leads to another for a football team, they are intrinsically linked. Pundits call it "form" and it therefore follows that those teams and individuals in good "form" can usually reproduce good performances without giving it too much thought, until someone or something knocks them out of their stride. It is precisely this reason which has made me consistently be an advocate for not disturbing the equilebrium of a team unless it is properly necessary. My hunch has always been that a football team at its best is a well-oiled machine, and if you take out one of the component parts and swap it for something similar don't be surprised that given time the machine starts to rattle a bit. One game leads into another.

Now whether or not you choose to believe in Rafa and his rotational revolution, few would argue that we don't look quite as fluent right now as we did at the start of the season. It might be the International break, it might be injuries, it might be tiredness and it might be the jetlag after the long haul flights from Albania. Whatever it is though, the fact that the fluency isn't there is beyond dispute. Now to get it back, we'll probably start playing our strongest team again for a bit. It might be an idea this time to take a bit of a gamble on the players being a bit "tired", and leave that team in place for a wee bit longer than we did last time.

I was feeling very down and sorry for myself after today's game. I knew coming on here would provide me with one quality post as a pick-me-up and get me in optimistic spirits again. Yours was that post; Thank you  :)

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Postby Emerald Red » Sun Sep 23, 2007 1:07 am

Ah, I take it yesterday's match thread went off the rails a little and the lynch mob were out in force with their prawn sambo's. Seriously, it p*ssed me the f*ck off. Not the result, but the attitude of some certain people about it. "Oh, no! We drew again. League is OVER! RAFA OUT" What a sh*t load of f*ck!

It's September. We're unbeaten. Our defense is harder and more solid than the So Solid Crew, and we don't have 21 seconds to go either. We've practically all of the f*cking season left, so stop b*tching about a draw. Prizes are handed out in May. Not October!
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Postby Bad Bob » Sun Sep 23, 2007 1:32 am

I must say that today's match was tough to take, given that we struggled with the same problem we faced last season: breaking obstinate teams down.  I'll not be writing off our title chances at this point but neither will I say that we've done a particularly good job of consolidating our great start.  The good news is that the league race looks like it might run a lot tighter this season, with the Big 4 slipping up on more occasions.  We must not let too many opportunities like today's go begging, though.

On the subject of Torres, I would have preferred to see him start.  He looks a tremendous talent who has the potential to be world class.  Plus, he makes players around him better.  I was disappointed that Rafa opted to rest him today for tactical reasons.  Last Saturday I could understand, given the internationals (yes, I think they take a prodigious physical toll) but not playing your best striker for because the opposition will likely sit deep is giving Birmingham City far too much respect.  Especially since Torres is much more than merely a pace merchant--the lad has the guile to unlock deep-sitting defenses as well as run in behind those playing a high line.  Rafa got that one quite wrong today, IMHO.

Having said that, there are people on here that seem to see Torres as some kind of Messiah figure.  But, is he so good that we are utterly dependent upon him after only six games into the season?  True, he has shown great form for us before the international break but he's far from a guaranteed goal machine.  I worry that some people are building him up so much that they are borderline suicidal/homocidal when his name's not on the teamsheet.  To hear some people tell it, the absence of Torres explains every poor result which is far too reductionist for my taste.  "If only Torres had started..." is a nice pat answer for explaining our dip in form but, as Tuesday night showed, the problems run deeper than that.
Last edited by Bad Bob on Sun Sep 23, 2007 1:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby The Grudge » Sun Sep 23, 2007 1:56 am

Bad Bob wrote:I must say that today's match was tough to take, given that we struggled with the same problem we faced last season: breaking obstinate teams down.  I'll not be writing off our title chances at this point but neither will I say that we've done a particularly good job of consolidating our great start.  The good news is that the league race looks like it might run a lot tighter this season, with the Big 4 slipping up on more occasions.  We must not let too many opportunities like today's go begging, though.

On the subject of Torres, I would have preferred to see him start.  He looks a tremendous talent who has the potential to be world class.  Plus, he makes players around him better.  I was disappointed that Rafa opted to rest him today for tactical reasons.  Last Saturday I could understand, given the internationals (yes, I think they take a prodigious physical toll) but not playing your best striker for because the opposition will likely sit deep is giving Birmingham City far too much respect.  Especially since Torres is much more than merely a pace merchant--the lad has the guile to unlock deep-sitting defenses as well as run in behind those playing a high line.  Rafa got that one quite wrong today, IMHO.

Having said that, there are people on here that seem to see Torres as some kind of Messiah figure.  But, is he so good that we are utterly dependent upon him after only six games into the season?  True, he has shown great form for us before the international break but he's far from a guaranteed goal machine.  I worry that some people are building him up so much that they are borderline suicidal/homocidal when his name's not on the teamsheet.  To hear some people tell it, the absence of Torres explains every poor result which is far too reductionist for my taste.  "If only Torres had started..." is a nice pat answer for explaining our dip in form but, as Tuesday night showed, the problems run deeper than that.

Its not that we reckon Torres is soooo good Robert!!

Its just kinda like the old 'give the ball to the best player' prophecy and kind of cr@p when its not possible!


My worry is that Raffa has a team possible of doing what he wants to do.....but his overiding opinion that rotation works is spoiling the main feature!

Kinda like a cr@p Tarintino movie!!
(I say that with hurt and a fading impatient humour)


Not fu.cking laughing here!
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Postby account deleted by request » Sun Sep 23, 2007 2:00 am

Good post Badbob, just the right balance between optimism and despair. I also still think we are still in the race, but the Wigan game has now taken on an importance I was hoping to save for the bigger named teams further down the line. We can't afford to mess this one up, and no excuses this time. We lose or even draw against Wigan and I will begin looking harder at who we draw in the cups. A bit early for such a do or die game..... maybe, but with the CL looming large over our fixtures the next few weeks, games like Wigan have to be won.
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Postby 66-1112520797 » Sun Sep 23, 2007 2:09 am

I've just watched that dross, and I'm f.ucking livid there is no way I'm being told to calm down that was f.ucking appalling.

That team performance was s.hit. Riise and Kuyt annoyed the f.uck out of me today, fu.cking useless the pair of them. Gerrard was c.rap too Mascha was okay and Pennant as seems lately looks our liveliest player. Babel again didnt impose himself but like I said before I'm willing to give him the time to bed in, Voronin was non-exsitant. I tell ya that performance lacked tempo, inventivenes and all sorts.

I think we've seen both ends of the f.ucking spectrum, class displays against Chelsea and Derby right back to last seasons inept showings against Portsmouth, Porto and now f.ucking Birmingham.

Liverpool title challengers ? Not on your f.cukning nelly, if we're going to play like that we may aswell fall back on the CL again.

Apart from leaving a 26 million pound striker out of the line-up the team selection didnt bother me, the performance was shocking. But again it wasnt made any easier by the manager, who for whatever f.ucking reason left Torres out .... WHY? Are we resting him for Reading in midweek. I'm sorry Sabre but if you can come on here and try and justify that you can polietly f.uck off, same with Lando, if you call that man a f.ucking genius again you can do one to.


Yeah knee jerk, in the heat of the moment, but its still f.ucking true.
Rant over
Last edited by 66-1112520797 on Sun Sep 23, 2007 2:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Effes » Sun Sep 23, 2007 2:29 am

Bamaga man wrote:I've just watched that dross, and I'm f.ucking livid there is no way I'm being told to calm down that was f.ucking appalling.

That team performance was s.hit. Riise and Kuyt annoyed the f.uck out of me today, fu.cking useless the pair of them. Gerrard was c.rap too Mascha was okay and Pennant as seems lately looks our liveliest player. Babel again didnt impose himself but like I said before I'm willing to give him the time to bed in, Voronin was non-exsitant. I tell ya that performance lacked tempo, inventivenes and all sorts.

I think we've seen both ends of the f.ucking spectrum, class displays against Chelsea and Derby right back to last seasons inept showings against Portsmouth, Porto and now f.ucking Birmingham.

Liverpool title challengers ? Not on your f.cukning nelly, if we're going to play like that we may aswell fall back on the CL again.

Apart from leaving a 26 million pound striker out of the line-up the team selection didnt bother me, the performance was shocking. But again it wasnt made any easier by the manager, who for whatever f.ucking reason left Torres out .... WHY? Are we resting him for Reading in midweek. I'm sorry Sabre but if you can come on here and try and justify that you can polietly f.uck off, same with Lando, if you call that man a f.ucking genius again you can do one to.


Yeah knee jerk, in the heat of the moment, but its still f.ucking true.
Rant over

Thats more like it, none of this "balanced" bollox.

Rafa cokked up - as I said before; if you dont start your star striker then you open yourself up to criticism.
Rafa sometimes tries to be too clever.

There is no way Paisley, Shankly, Ferguson, Wenger or Mourinho would have dropped Torres for this game.
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Postby The Grudge » Sun Sep 23, 2007 2:33 am

Exactly!
But Raffa insists that Torres  must sit on bench!
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Postby Sabre » Sun Sep 23, 2007 2:44 am

I agree 94% of what Bigmick says. Especially when he asks for some calmness.

the remaining 6% is about the bit in which he says Torres is world class. If world class means among the best three in his position in the world, well he isn't. At least it's my humble opinion.

Of course if it's a common thought around here that he's world class, then it doesn't surprise the anger of not seeing him playing every minute, even after international games and full games in europe in midweek.

Torres is a player that makes us stronger, so is Voronin. Both provide more than Bellamy and Fowler yesteryear. But in the Birmingham game I missed Crouch, more than Torres. Voronin was almost unexistant as Bamaga points out. So the why is answered by a) Torres is not God b) He played midweek c) maybe not the best game to use his pace

We can go on about selection and rotation, but at the end what happened today is a bad performance. We should have won this game with Voronin, with Torres or with Crouch. With a 442 and with a 451. We simply  didn't play well. We didn't have patience, and that almost always are down to decissions in the pitch not manager instructions. We should have used the wings more, we should have passed the ball and make them run more behind the ball, and we should have elaborated more, because it was fúcking obvious they had not anything to offer attack-wise. It's not the first time we do this mistake, we did it yesteryear and the year before aswell. But it is the first time that happens this season.

Rafa? he might have made some mistakes, but no matter how much you want to stress that, the men in the pitch should have done better. It's undestandable to be angry but FFS, this happens to Manchester Barcelona and Madrid aswell. Calm down.
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