Liverpool FC Forum

by **Judge** » Mon Sep 17, 2007 12:57 pm

as for the game against portsmouth, i felt that sissoko should have come off, and kept pennant on. too many times did sissoko get caught with the ball, when an early release for a pass was in order. I am an admirer of sissoko, but felt pennant was better on the day in that match. i may get slated by some folk on here, but im not too bothered by that.

The match was there for the taking, but the decision to sub pennant, and not sissoko, was the wrong one. IMO

by **account deleted by request** » Mon Sep 17, 2007 12:59 pm

Hopefully my last word on this. I still think rotation works, but not when key players are already out with injury. That is a time to batten down the hatches and pick the best 11 you still have available.
I think we have 3 genuine WORLD CLASS players in Gerrard, Torres and Mascherano, if one of them is out through injury (or from travelling half way round the globe) pick the other two, if another is struggling with injury (a broken toe for example) for god sake play the other even if he's perhaps a little tired. If you want to give them a rest, take them off once the game is won, rather than bringing them on to change a game thats slipping away from us.

by **JC_81** » Mon Sep 17, 2007 1:33 pm

Have to say I hold some of the same concerns as Mick here. As I sat watching the Porstsmouth game on tv with a mate (also a Liverpool fan), we just looked at each other as the teams were announced and shook our heads. We knew what each other was thinking - here we go again. Gerrard, Torres and to a slightly lesser extent Babel have looked our biggest attacking threats this season imo, yet all on the bench.

Yes, in each case there was an argument for leaving them on the bench - all had played International football midweek, and also there is a tricky game for us away to Porto coming up where we could do with those players. But I am not of the opinion that we are yet at the stage of the season where players need rested. Players should still be fresh at this stage of the season. For once I was in total agreement with Andy Gray who made the point that next week we have Birmingham at home and could probably rest players and win comfortably. Portsmouth away is a hard game and Benitez got it wrong imo - it was an unnecessary gamble.

A few other things worth noting after this game.

1) Crouch's days here are numbered. His body language is all wrong and for all his complaining about not getting picked, he didn't nearly do enough to justify his start against Portsmouth. I can accept him missing chances, but his workrate was poor and he lacked concentration. He'll want a move by January I predict.

2) How unlucky are we being with penalties this season? Fair enough Arbeloa did pull Kanu's shirt, but Kanu had a hold of Arbeloa too and he didn't even claim for a pen. Add that to Carra's accidental handball v Villa and Malouda's springboard effort v Chelsea and I'd say we're due some luck between now and the end of the season!

by **Sabre** » Mon Sep 17, 2007 1:43 pm

About point two, Andy Gray was very sure that was a penalty. It probably was a foul, but then you'd have penalties in every single corner of the premiership and the liga. Every single one.

Strange penalties against this season.

by **Lucky** » Mon Sep 17, 2007 2:29 pm

Sabre wrote:As for Bigmick, rest assured that if we don't have extreme circunstances like the *combination* of international games, early kick offs and incoming CL game, I expect Rafa will play always if not best men, a very strong squad.

The problem is we still have similar extreme circumstances ahead this season, but should that always be an excuse to rest our best players and possibly drop points for that very reason?

by **AB's Red Army** » Mon Sep 17, 2007 2:31 pm

Whether we like it or not, fitness is a key part to Rafa's decision on who plays and who doesn't. More so after international breaks or mid-week matches.

With his attention to detail, every single bit of fitness related analysis on players.

It's not as if the man rotates for the sake of rotating. Imo you actually believe that then you need your head checked. This isn't a new system to Benitez, he has used it before at a top level [Valencia].

So far we have made an average of 1 change per game. We had the same line up against Villa and Chelsea. We made 3 changes v Sunderland, one of which we had to due to Gerrard's injury. We made a similar amount of changes against Derby due to injuries mostly.

Remember the start to a particular season we made under Houllier? We went 11 or 12 games unbeaten and only made one change in that span of time I believe. That was followed by a loss to Boro and 14 or so games without a win.

I do agree that on Saturday we were too lethargic. Our movement wasn't good and we lacked any pace in our passing flow. Perhaps Babel,Torres,Gerrard would had changed that, however at the same time the players who played didn't show a good account of themselves.

I've yet to see anyone criticize the XI on Saturday regarding the performance. All of the criticism seems to be going directly towards Benitez. Which is fair enough but he didn't play the game, he set out the game plan which wasn't replicated on the pitch.

Where's the criticism towards the ''shower of :censored:

'' that played?

by **bigmick** » Mon Sep 17, 2007 9:32 pm

AB's Red Army wrote:So far we have made an average of 1 change per game. We had the same line up against Villa and Chelsea. We made 3 changes v Sunderland, one of which we had to due to Gerrard's injury. We made a similar amount of changes against Derby due to injuries mostly.

I'm not sure all that equates to an average of one change per game AB but no matter, the numbers mean nothing really. It's a little bit like an article by Paul Tompkins in which he produced a raft of stats and figres which proved conclusively that Benitez in fact rotates no more than Ferguson and Mourinho.

2.3 players per game or some such nonsense if my memory serves me (and it probably doesn't in truth, I'm hopeless with pointless statistics) and all was well. I made the point at the time and it holds for this discussion too. It's not about how many, it's who, where and when. Resting Arbeloa and playing Riise left full-back, while giving Benayoun a game on the right to give Pennant a day off at Home to Derby is not the same as benching Gerrard and Torres at Old Trafford. Sorry for stating the absolutely glaringly, flashing light, neon sign obvious but there it is.

by **The_Rock** » Tue Sep 18, 2007 4:13 am

I think its no use to argue about rotation...... The fact is as long as rafa is our manager, he will do it. We can only hope he replaces players like for like

1)Mash for Alonso
2)Benayoun for Pennant
3)Gerrard for Alonso
4)Torres for Owen (juz kidding.....Torres is irreplaceable at the moment).

This will not work
1)Crouch or Voronin or Kuyt for Torres
2)Sissoko for Gerrard

In other words, there are good rotations and bad rotations...

BTW i am in the anti-rotation camp.... We have to play our strongest 11 every game. The teams in the EPL are getting stronger every season (derby just beat newcastle)....

by **AB's Red Army** » Tue Sep 18, 2007 5:47 am

The_Rock wrote:I think its no use to argue about rotation...... The fact is as long as rafa is our manager, he will do it. We can only hope he replaces players like for like

1)Mash for Alonso
2)Benayoun for Pennant
3)Gerrard for Alonso
4)Torres for Owen (juz kidding.....Torres is irreplaceable at the moment).

This will not work
1)Crouch or Voronin or Kuyt for Torres
2)Sissoko for Gerrard

In other words, there are good rotations and bad rotations...

BTW i am in the anti-rotation camp.... We have to play our strongest 11 every game. The teams in the EPL are getting stronger every season (derby just beat newcastle)....

It's impossible to play your strongest XI every game, week in and week out. It's never going to happen. Name me a manager in recent years that has not rotated and played the same line up for every game.

by **account deleted by request** » Tue Sep 18, 2007 6:02 am

bigmick wrote:
AB's Red Army wrote:So far we have made an average of 1 change per game. We had the same line up against Villa and Chelsea. We made 3 changes v Sunderland, one of which we had to due to Gerrard's injury. We made a similar amount of changes against Derby due to injuries mostly.

I'm not sure all that equates to an average of one change per game AB but no matter, the numbers mean nothing really. It's a little bit like an article by Paul Tompkins in which he produced a raft of stats and figres which proved conclusively that Benitez in fact rotates no more than Ferguson and Mourinho.

2.3 players per game or some such nonsense if my memory serves me (and it probably doesn't in truth, I'm hopeless with pointless statistics) and all was well. I made the point at the time and it holds for this discussion too. It's not about how many, it's who, where and when. Resting Arbeloa and playing Riise left full-back, while giving Benayoun a game on the right to give Pennant a day off at Home to Derby is not the same as benching Gerrard and Torres at Old Trafford. Sorry for stating the absolutely glaringly, flashing light, neon sign obvious but there it is.

Jose Mourinho

'So, when the class one eggs are in Waitrose and you cannot get there, you have a problem. When you have Drogba, Lampard, Ballack and Carvalho out, you are speaking about 40 per cent of the team.

'The problem is not when four, five or six players are injured, but which players they are and their importance to the team. That's the problem.

Ignoring the egg analogy, looks like Jose agrees with you Mick.

by **The_Rock** » Tue Sep 18, 2007 7:43 am

This coming from a manager who just lost to derby....

Anti and pro-rotation camp....your comments please....

EXCLUSIVE
By Neil Mcleman 18/09/2007

Sam Allardyce claims Rafa Benitez cannot win the Premier League - and that the Spaniard is lucky to be in his job at Liverpool.

In an amazing attack, the Newcastle manager predicted the title would not go to Anfield this season as their "foreigner" boss still does not have the right "mentality".

Liverpool were knocked off the top of the table at the weekend when Benitez rested Steven Gerrard and Fernando Torres for the game at Portsmouth ahead of tonight's Champions League visit to Porto.

Allardyce admits the 2005 European champions have the best chance of the six British clubs of winning again this season.

But he believes Liverpool's league finishes since Benitez arrived - fifth, third and third - would have got him the sack without his exploits in Europe.

"Rafa would be very lucky to be in a job if he hadn't got to two Champions League Finals, because they've had some very, very poor finishes in the Premier League," Allardyce told Zoo magazine.

"While they're a very good Champions League team, they're not a Premier League-winning side yet. They don't have the mentality to win that yet.

"Being a foreigner, Rafa doesn't understand it's supposed to be Premier League first and Champions League second."

'Only Europe has saved his skin'

http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport....9806775

by **heimdall** » Tue Sep 18, 2007 9:20 am

Allardyce might actually have a point, I still don't think Rafa gets the Premiership, an example is not fielding your best team against Pompey who everybody, except Rafa, knows is bloody hard to beat on their own ground. Don't get me wrong Rafa is a very very good manager but I think he is way to stubborn for his own good, maybe he needs an assistant who understands the English game. What happened to the rumour about Jewel coming in as assistant coach, that would be ideal.

by **taff** » Tue Sep 18, 2007 1:12 pm

Last year we had a rotation argument where we started badly then finished strongly. Now we have made a better start and if we assume we will finish stronger then we will be in the hunt come next spring.

If we fielded a strong team and lost tonight then we would be reading posts about the importance of CL football and the money it brings in etc.

Its crazy to panic at the start of a race, we still got a point on the weekend and some lessons

by **Bad Bob** » Tue Sep 18, 2007 1:51 pm

heimdall wrote:Allardyce might actually have a point, I still don't think Rafa gets the Premiership, an example is not fielding your best team against Pompey who everybody, except Rafa, knows is bloody hard to beat on their own ground. Don't get me wrong Rafa is a very very good manager but I think he is way to stubborn for his own good, maybe he needs an assistant who understands the English game. What happened to the rumour about Jewel coming in as assistant coach, that would be ideal.

FFS, if had a nickle for every time someone said "everybody except Rafa knows..." I'd be able to buy out Hicks and Gillett. To borrow a phrase from Peewee, "it's getting boring now guys." :no

by **Sabre** » Tue Sep 18, 2007 2:32 pm

Understand the english game. Isn't it football? Venables, Coleman, Toshack and Robson went from the islands to Europe to coach teams. They did seem to know their business. Because their business was not different, it's fúcking football.

Some journos and old fashioned coachs need urgently to abandon some football ideas that we used to repeat in the eighties all the time but are obsolete now. Maybe they need assistants to understand the modern game. Personally I don't think they need it, but they're as stubborn as Rafa to say the least with their notions.

Liverpool FC Forum

To be honest... - I'm starting to get a little bit worried

Who is online