Liverpool FC Forum

by **dawson99** » Mon Sep 17, 2007 10:13 am

i would be worried but i think saturday was a massive learning curve for rafa to know exactly who plays best with who so im not shittg bricks just yet

by **bigmick** » Mon Sep 17, 2007 10:33 am

It might also be worth mentioning at this stage, particulary as some people are throwing around the accusation of non-rotationalists being wise after the event, that my opinion is that whatever team Rafa plays at Home against Birmingham will win the game. That is to say regardless of how many changes he makes to the line up at Portsmouth, at Porto or anywhere else, he could field any combination of eleven players from our squad and we'll win the game (before some wag pipes up, I am of course assuming that he palys Reina in goal not Finnan etc etc).

Please though, if and when we win 3-0 with a collection of players which are different from previously seen, save me the "our squad is sooo strong" and the "where are the moaners now?" stuff. As against Derby, we could play Stu the Red up front and still beat Birmingham. If we don't, it is absolutely nothing to do with rotation, the players who take the field should be shot.

by **66-1112520797** » Mon Sep 17, 2007 10:43 am

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It might also be worth mentioning at this stage, particulary as some people are throwing around the accusation of non-rotationalists being wise after the event, that my opinion is that whatever team Rafa plays at Home against Birmingham will win the game.

Mick I wouldnt worry too much about what the pro-rotationsists think, they were proved wrong last season.

by **Sabre** » Mon Sep 17, 2007 11:04 am

Bamaga man wrote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It might also be worth mentioning at this stage, particulary as some people are throwing around the accusation of non-rotationalists being wise after the event, that my opinion is that whatever team Rafa plays at Home against Birmingham will win the game.

Mick I wouldnt worry too much about what the pro-rotationsists think, they were proved wrong last season.

How?

I think the people agreed a man like Torres was badly needed?
I think others thought Gerrard shouldn't play in the right on a regular basis? I think people agreed that our squad was not deep enough?

No if buts and maybes: We're still unbeaten this season, even if we had some unbelievable penalties against. Only Bigmick and a few others had legitimate doubts about rotation before this game, so excuse me, but if a draw away in a difficult venue after an international break is all the people need to say a policy is plainly wrong, then I won't blame any happy clapper that asks where are the moaners when we win 3 games in a row. It won't be me, I promise.

Myself, I'm done with this discussion until the end of the season. The season end will prove how this policy works. And if we don't win the league or be 1 point away or something like that I'll admit it was wrong. Until then, I'm done with this discussion.

oh and a couple of disclaimers,

1) I don't think criticising Rafa is a sin, I just think saying he does things with no reason is absurd. Of course he makes mistakes, of course he gets wrong things.

2) Call me happy clappy, I can live with that

by **dawson99** » Mon Sep 17, 2007 11:13 am

what people are worried about i think is how the rest of the so-called top 4 will continually play there best players, when we rest ours.

It would have been like the gooners going without cesc and van persie at the weekend and we see how bad cheatski are without fat lamps and drogba.

we need to play the best 11 on the day, not rest players that are gonna have a betetr chance of wining us games

by **66-1112520797** » Mon Sep 17, 2007 11:21 am

How?

How far behind Manchester United did we fall behind last season, where and when were the points dropped nearer the begining of last season. Rafa did rotate at times earlier on for whatever reasons, but our form didnt really pick up until Gerrard was moved central in my eyes.

Only Bigmick and a few others had legitimate doubts about rotation before this game, so excuse me, but if a draw away in a difficult venue after an international break is all the people need to say a policy is plainly wrong, then I won't blame any happy clapper that asks where are the moaners when we win 3 games in a row. It won't be me, I promise.

Only BigMick and a few others hey, well I was one of those "few" others thankyou very much. To a large extentent you've proved my point for me Sabre,

but if a draw away in a difficult venue after an international break is all the people need to say a policy is plainly wrong,

If it was such a difficult tie away, why leave two of your best players out. So what they had international duties, we play CL games midweek does that mean we cannot play Torres and Gerrard and others who play in th cL the following Saturday. IMO the internationals only hampered the training, and tactical side for Rafa's preperation against Portsmouth. Not fitness levels, Torres had a knock, not a broken rib, he'll pick up more, harder knocks over the course of the season. If Torres and Gerrard were that bad they wouldnt have been in the squad, so I cannot see no reason to start Torres at least and then pull him off if "fatigue" or anything else happened.

Already I think its clear to say we cannot rest our two best players and hope to gain the odds over the opposition without them, there irreplacable. Save the rotations for the LC, FA cup, CL but play a familiar side more or less week in week out regardless of internationals.

1) I don't think criticising Rafa is a sin, I just think saying he does things with no reason is absurd

Nobody said it was "absurd" but it didnt work did it, Pompey were sloppy and we never capitalised, when we should of done.

by **mattylfc** » Mon Sep 17, 2007 11:24 am

To be honest, when i saw the team being announced, it all made sense to me and i thought he got it right.

Only when i saw such a lacklustre performance did i start to think..did Rafa get this one wrong?

The back four basically picked itself. Pennant and Benayoun were good options on the wing. You could argue that Babel may have started but like Yossi, he had played a lot of minutes and i would have gone with Yossi too on this occasion.

I didnt blame Rafa for resting Gerrard when he had played two games after returning from injury. Especially when the other three/four midfielders had hardly played in the same space of time. With no Gerrard, you have to play Sissoko as he is the only player out of the three who is likely to get forward. Lucas would have been another option but Sissoko was a much better match against Diop. It was then a case of who plays with Sissoko out of Alonso and Masc, for me it was Alonso as we needed someone who could move the ball.

The only other dilemma and one i felt Rafa maybe got wrong was up front. Im not surprised Torres dint start as he played two games and was also carrying a minor knock. For me, Kuyt was first choice and it was a case who played with him. It made sense that Crouch played as he hadnt featured in the internationals and was probably biting Rafas arm off for a game.

Obviously it didnt work out, but i do think it was much more down to the team performance than the selection. If you cant use your squad in games like this then i dont know when you can. For me, the team just didnt perform well enough.

As i have said the only thing i would have done differently is play Kuyt. I would have also introduced Gerrard and Torres earlier but cant do anything about it now can we aye!

Bring on Porto!

by **66-1112520797** » Mon Sep 17, 2007 11:29 am

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
To be honest, when i saw the team being announced, it all made sense to me and i thought he got it right.

I suppose it did make sense possibly regarding fitness levels, BUT as Martin Tyler said " Fitness over finess " thats what Rafa went for and it still didnt work.

For me its quite obvious why we didnt win, but some people hide behind all types of excuses even when the result doesnt prove their point.

by **Sabre** » Mon Sep 17, 2007 11:30 am

Bamaga, the fact we didn't win the league and were far from manchester proves that we had problems. Squad wise, tactics wise, or whatever. Some of which are down to Rafa's mistakes. Some others are down to the previous board not putting the required money in the table. But it's not the proof of rotation's blame. IMO.

And yes, perhaps I wasn't clear enough, but you were one of the few aswell that had concerns about rotation this season and the previous one. It was a mistake to name names of posters, I just was discussing ideas that have been written. Not very interested on who's right or wrong but the ideas.

But elsewhere in another thread, you say we didn't create clear chances in the second half, the second half in which the so expected Torres and Gerrard were playing. I don't know what they would have done in 90 mins, but in 30 they didn't score. Probably they could have started the game, specially Gerrard, but Torres wouldn't have played 90 mins. It makes sense to me or at least I think it's argueable, that Torres pace would be more useful at the end of the game with the opposition tired, that at the beginning of the game.

And for the it didn't work, no, it wasn't our best game, and that happens in football. Was rotation the cause? not preparing properly the game? should have Torres and Voronin done better in their chances? there are a lot of things that can explain a not that good performance.

by **66-1112520797** » Mon Sep 17, 2007 11:41 am

Okay Sabre.

My posts about this are not ' get Rafa out ' or anything like that, and TBH i'm fed up with this rotation debate, and I urge Mick to stop bringing it up. We all have our views, but surely and fundamentally changing a team around prevents cohesion amongst players. So IMO you've already handicapped yourself even before a ball is kicked and when the opposition see our line-ups that exclude Gerrard and Torres it helps them mentally.

Fortunately for Rafa he can rotate Mascha for Xabi, Agger for Hyypia, Babel for Riise, Benayoun for Pennant, but lets be honest who in our squad can step into Torres' and Gerrards boots, there aint too many players on the planet who are able to do this let or lone and handful of players from our squad.

I'm done with this, over to you Sabre.

Not very interested on who's right or wrong but the ideas.

I am, because I feel I can learn more from, knowledgable posters.

by **bigmick** » Mon Sep 17, 2007 11:42 am

The discussion is getting repetitive I'll concede that. It is infact beginning to resemble the aftermath of the Bramhall Lane fiasco of last season. I remember then people accusing detractors of being knee-jerkers, "you don't lose the title in the first week of the season" etc etc. Gradually though over time, as it became clear that it was in reality a self inflicted body blow which we never actually recovered from the defenders became fewer and fewer.

Fortunately on this occasion the damage isn't so great. It isn't so great because firstly Portsmouth are obviously a much better team than Sheffield United, they've already taken points off other top teams this season. It also isn't so great in terms of damage because firstly we decided to pick a sensible team in our opening game and therefore won it, and our fixtures at the start of the season were easier than last. Consequently, we are still in the mix. The other reason it wasn't as damaging is of course because extremely fortunately for us, we didn't lose the game.

"But we're not "in the mix" we're ahead of our main rivals" is the cry? Well we are. But Chelsea have ticked off probably their hardest away game of the season (us obviously), while Arsenal have been to Spurs, Man Utd have played away at thier local rivals and Everton. Despite the fact that Man Utd have by their own admission been well below their best, Chelsea have been miles below par and we've been playing our best football for ages, we've allowed them all to close up by trying to be too clever with our selections in our only indisputeably difficult away game so far. We had the chance to keep our run going, 100% except for the Rob Styles equaliser but we didn't give ourselves the best chance of doing so.

Sooner or later, our main rivals will have a run of easy games and we will have the tricky matches to deal with. I hope two things happen. One, that they decide to leave their best players on the bench when they have the more difficult Away games of the sequence, and two that we learn our lesson and play a team which is picked from a basic core of our best players. Unfortunately, there is absolutely no chance of the first one happening, and it appears little chance of the second one either.

by **66-1112520797** » Mon Sep 17, 2007 11:53 am

Sooner or later, our main rivals will have a run of easy games and we will have the tricky matches to deal with. I hope two things happen. One, that they decide to leave their best players on the bench when they have the more difficult Away games of the sequence, and two that we learn our lesson and play a team which is picked from a basic core of our best players. Unfortunately, there is absolutely no chance of the first one happening, and it appears little chance of the second one either.

by **Sabre** » Mon Sep 17, 2007 11:54 am

My posts about this are not ' get Rafa out ' or anything like that

Ok, to end the discussion, I did imply that in a moment of hot discussion in last season, but honestly now I'm calm, I perfectly know you're not saying such a things but just posting what you think it would be better for Rafa to do .

As for Bigmick, rest assured that if we don't have extreme circunstances like the *combination* of international games, early kick offs and incoming CL game, I expect Rafa will play always if not best men, a very strong squad. In the past (other seasons) I did really see some strange line ups I couldn't understand, but this time Torres was played twice during the week, was kicked, and that was a good reason to rest him at the beginning of the game.

by **heimdall** » Mon Sep 17, 2007 12:12 pm

Sabre wrote:
My posts about this are not ' get Rafa out ' or anything like that

Ok, to end the discussion, I did imply that in a moment of hot discussion in last season, but honestly now I'm calm, I perfectly know you're not saying such a things but just posting what you think it would be better for Rafa to do .

As for Bigmick, rest assured that if we don't have extreme circunstances like the *combination* of international games, early kick offs and incoming CL game, I expect Rafa will play always if not best men, a very strong squad. In the past (other seasons) I did really see some strange line ups I couldn't understand, but this time Torres was played twice during the week, was kicked, and that was a good reason to rest him at the beginning of the game.

How many players did Fergie rest considering they had an even earlier kick off??

Bottom line I'm not actually too worried about this draw, it was a bad game but one fact is clear and that is that Crouch is simply not good enough, he just doesn't fit in any more, Kuyt, Voronin and Torres are a different class of striker to him and are far more adaptable. I am sure that on paper the team looked good to Rafa but he must be rueing playing Crouch now!

by **Ola Mr Benitez** » Mon Sep 17, 2007 12:13 pm

I think most people will agree that Rafa got this one wrong. I would even go as far as to say most people thought he got it wrong when they saw the team before kick off. I am not against rotation I think it is a sensible tactic. What I don't understand is why you would leave your best midfielder out and your best striker out and then just to rub salt in the wound play a right midfielder on the left. That is just stupid.

I feel if you are not going to play our best forward line, you do not take out a player who can score goals and make oppoutunities as well. The same way if you are not going to play your most dynamic midfield player, you should leave on a player who can make his own space and oppoutunities up front.

Sometime its like Rafa is more concerened about picking a team that no one else will guess rather than play a strong team. The team he played was capable of winning at Portsmouth but a team with Gerrard, Babel and Tores WOULD have won. 2 points dropped. Not good enough!

We have the strongest squad we have had since last winning the title, which is the squad put together by Rafa Benitez, so he clearly knows what he is doing.. I am not calling for his head, but at the same time he could be the reason we don't win the title this year. (Maybe a bit harsh).

Liverpool FC Forum

To be honest... - I'm starting to get a little bit worried

Who is online