Liverpool FC Forum

by **66-1112520797** » Thu Aug 30, 2007 10:37 am

I'm not a fan of rotation, especially '"mass" rotation and I'm going to stick to my guns. Put it this way if Rafa decided to rotate in the league like he did with Toulouse the other day, then I'd say we've got buckly's chance of winning the league. Changing between 4 and 9 players every other game will not win you the league IMO. I'd much prefer Rafa kept his "mass rotating" for all of the cups we're in this season but play a more or less settled side in the league.

But the problem Rafa has got is, keeping Mascha,Alonso,Momo,Crouch and players like Benayoun happy especially if anyone of them has found themselves out of the squad or on the bench for long periods. Although having a big squad full of good players is great, and Rafa's main reasoning behind rotation is the fitness levels come the end of the season. I think rotation is also a policy of keeping players happy over the due course.

by **Bad Bob** » Thu Aug 30, 2007 2:15 pm

Bamaga man wrote:II'd much prefer Rafa kept his "mass rotating" for all of the cups we're in this season but play a more or less settled side in the league.

I think that's precisely what he'll do this season, mate. We'll see "mass" rotation in the Carling and FA Cups (early rounds), "moderate" rotation in the Champions League (from here on out, that is, where there are no easy games) and "minimal" rotation in the league, I suspect. The trick, as you say, will be keeping the players happy and focused on the larger picture if they miss out on a few games.

by **Wilhelmsson** » Thu Aug 30, 2007 3:20 pm

I’m not against rotation or for rotation, that aside I accept that rotation is needed in today’s game. The days of being able to field the same starting eleven for much of the season is non-existent nowadays.

Sensible rotation is what I like to see, rotation with a purpose is also what I like to see, nothing angers me more than seeing a manager shuffling his deck to keep a minority of players happy and content. It’s important to have a large squad when the club of Liverpool’s stature comes into the fray, but it’s also important to make players earn their right to play.

Players will suffer from injury, fatigue and suspensions along the way and it’s important to have players who can fill the void. Rotation is not something I am concerned about this season. Rafa has players with a higher quality at his disposal than he did, two or three seasons ago and this will no doubt aid him in his quest for title glory.

The problem I have with rotation is rotating to keep players happy and content incase there is repercussions on team morale in the dressing room. I feel that a player should work to be in the team, instead of being played for the sake of being played. If a player works hard in training and impresses on the pitch, then a first team start should be presented to them and if they are consistently performing well in training and in competitive matches then they should cement their place into the side until they either a) lose their place b) drop in form c) suffer from an injury, fatigue or a suspension.

However a player will not see things this way and will no doubt want to play on the pitch and as shown already within the media circles, a few players have already been quoted as feeling somewhat frustrated by Rafa’s policy of rotation. If too many players become disillusioned with the policy then there could be major repercussions on the pitch and team in terms of morale, performances and results.

by **LegBarnes** » Thu Aug 30, 2007 3:23 pm

Way i see it the game of football has been changing over the last 4 years rafa knows this more and more games to deal with internationals all over the place he sees that in order to perform at a high level over a long period you need a big squad and you need to use it .

He wont run his players into the ground then go in Jan and fork out 25 mil on replacement instead he is careful to look after his very large investments get them all playing , and getting the most out of them.

Remeber he is starting a new trend and alot of other managers dont do what he does and i tell you this for a fact in 3-4 years every manager will have to do this because the way the game is growing and more ad more games every manager will have to be a tinker.

by **Wilhelmsson** » Thu Aug 30, 2007 3:31 pm

LegBarnes wrote:Way i see it the game of football has been changing over the last 4 years rafa knows this more and more games to deal with internationals all over the place he sees that in order to perform at a high level over a long period you need a big squad and you need to use it .

He wont run his players into the ground then go in Jan and fork out 25 mil on replacement instead he is careful to look after his very large investments get them all playing , and getting the most out of them.

Remeber he is starting a new trend and alot of other managers dont do what he does and i tell you this for a fact in 3-4 years every manager will have to do this because the way the game is growing and more ad more games every manager will have to be a tinker.

To be fair not a lot of managers have the financial capabilities to have a squad of 22 very talented individual players, both Coppell and Moyes have come out and slammed the larger clubs for snapping up players in their droves making it ‘impossible to compete in the transfer market’.

Rafa hasn’t started the rotation trend, after all Rafa didn’t tinker with side in a Champions League SF and lose to Monaco and a sublime Fernando Morientes performance. Rafa has built a squad similar to that of Mourinho’s where Rafa has equal quality throughout most positions in his squad.

by **LegBarnes** » Thu Aug 30, 2007 3:40 pm

Wilhelmsson wrote:
LegBarnes wrote:Way i see it the game of football has been changing over the last 4 years rafa knows this more and more games to deal with internationals all over the place he sees that in order to perform at a high level over a long period you need a big squad and you need to use it .

He wont run his players into the ground then go in Jan and fork out 25 mil on replacement instead he is careful to look after his very large investments get them all playing , and getting the most out of them.

Remeber he is starting a new trend and alot of other managers dont do what he does and i tell you this for a fact in 3-4 years every manager will have to do this because the way the game is growing and more ad more games every manager will have to be a tinker.

To be fair not a lot of managers have the financial capabilities to have a squad of 22 very talented individual players, both Coppell and Moyes have come out and slammed the larger clubs for snapping up players in their droves making it ‘impossible to compete in the transfer market’.

Rafa hasn’t started the rotation trend, after all Rafa didn’t tinker with side in a Champions League SF and lose to Monaco and a sublime Fernando Morientes performance. Rafa has built a squad similar to that of Mourinho’s where Rafa has equal quality throughout most positions in his squad.

yes but most sides wont be challenging for major honors in 4-5 comps will they and his sqaud isnt any thing like Mourinho’s
he depends on a starting 11 and his bench doesnt look any thing like as strong as ours.

Trust me in 3-4 years people will have to have sqauds like this or they will get the chop.

by **muzodziwa** » Thu Aug 30, 2007 3:53 pm

It is this type of discussion that makes me feel so proud to be part of this forum; though i a m a freshman i have taken time to read the previous posts concerning rotation tactic by Rafa.

It is not entirely true that we lost our momentum in terms of challenging for the title because of rotation, we did not have the depth to compete in the long run taking into consideration the depth that the Mancs and Chelski had. Our strike force did not have anybody who could produce a moment of brilliance from nothing; hence our over reliance on Stevie to rescue us on many an occassion.

We have played week teams in the past with rotation and still not managed a good result but this time around we have managed to beat the so called small teams with the same philosophy of rotation. There are varied ways to explain this but to me a football layman i just look at the difference in personnel, Torres and Voronin adds something totally unique to the side that we did not have last season, game intelligence combined with pace; yes we had bellamy with zero game intelligence and explosive pace which explains the number of times he would go offside in a single match.

Apart from Aurelio, we did not have much depth on the flanks, and using Stevie there was tactical shrewdness taking into consideration Pennant was not to his best during the first half of the season where our title aspirations were dented. Mark Gonzalez was just not up to it and an injured Kewell our attacking depth from the midfield was severely impaired. Now we have added the small Israel genius Yossi and young Babel, wow! again i say wow! The dimutive Yossi plays as if the ball is stuck to his feet, rarely losing possession and aware of the general movement of the whole attacking effort, then talk of the glimpses of brilliance we have seen from Babel, great control and will definately improve in terms of his back-passing with confidence and maturity; the boy has a natural instinct where the goal is and i tell you it is not long before the kop celebrated a thunderbolt goal from this lad.

Defensively rafa has not dabbled much with the team, and let me explain; with Cara, Agger and Hyppia, Rafa has formidable centre backs and changing these depending on circumstances does not leave the team in a desperate situation and again last season there was not much rotation here in the league. This year we also have Arbeloa as cover for the centerback position (in the situation we are in now) and indeed this lives us looking at the two positions that Rafa has rotated the past seasons;
Right back, I dont think Rafa was immediately won by Steve Finnan's defensive abilities and not many of us were first won over by him especially his tactical awareness. Hosemi and Krompkamp were not quality enough. What has changed, Finnan apart from Pennant is my most improved player especially on his tactical game intelligence with credit going to the coaching team and his eargerness to learn, even from his press speeches you can tell his confidence level have upped. We also have the versatile Arbeola knocking at the door and he is an apt replacement for the RB position.
Left back, well this is the area that is giving Rafa the greatest of all problems and again the area where he has rotated the most. Rafa likes the work ethic of Riise but he also knows his limitations as a conventional left back hence the interest in Gabriel Heinze; eversince Rafa took over we have never had a dependable left back and i differ when people talk of Aurelio as the answer to our left back problems yes he is a good left back with attacking flair but he does not offer the solidity that Heinze would have offered and this is what Rafa was looking at when he was optimistic about bringing him to Anfield. What has changed, again we have Arbeloa who has done well and soon coming Aurelio but again this will be the most rotated side in the defense as i feel Rafa has not got what he really wants there.

With the above in mind, Rafa will use his managerial philosophy effectively now and again it will be essential in our landing the triple this season; FA Cup, Champions League and NO 19 ( and call me optimistic

)

by **Bad Bob** » Thu Aug 30, 2007 4:01 pm

muzodziwa wrote:It is this type of discussion that makes me feel so proud to be part of this forum; though i a m a freshman i have taken time to read the previous posts concerning rotation tactic by Rafa.

It is not entirely true that we lost our momentum in terms of challenging for the title because of rotation, we did not have the depth to compete in the long run taking into consideration the depth that the Mancs and Chelski had. Our strike force did not have anybody who could produce a moment of brilliance from nothing; hence our over reliance on Stevie to rescue us on many an occassion.

We have played week teams in the past with rotation and still not managed a good result but this time around we have managed to beat the so called small teams with the same philosophy of rotation. There are varied ways to explain this but to me a football layman i just look at the difference in personnel, Torres and Voronin adds something totally unique to the side that we did not have last season, game intelligence combined with pace; yes we had bellamy with zero game intelligence and explosive pace which explains the number of times he would go offside in a single match.

Apart from Aurelio, we did not have much depth on the flanks, and using Stevie there was tactical shrewdness taking into consideration Pennant was not to his best during the first half of the season where our title aspirations were dented. Mark Gonzalez was just not up to it and an injured Kewell our attacking depth from the midfield was severely impaired. Now we have added the small Israel genius Yossi and young Babel, wow! again i say wow! The dimutive Yossi plays as if the ball is stuck to his feet, rarely losing possession and aware of the general movement of the whole attacking effort, then talk of the glimpses of brilliance we have seen from Babel, great control and will definately improve in terms of his back-passing with confidence and maturity; the boy has a natural instinct where the goal is and i tell you it is not long before the kop celebrated a thunderbolt goal from this lad.

Defensively rafa has not dabbled much with the team, and let me explain; with Cara, Agger and Hyppia, Rafa has formidable centre backs and changing these depending on circumstances does not leave the team in a desperate situation and again last season there was not much rotation here in the league. This year we also have Arbeloa as cover for the centerback position (in the situation we are in now) and indeed this lives us looking at the two positions that Rafa has rotated the past seasons;
Right back, I dont think Rafa was immediately won by Steve Finnan's defensive abilities and not many of us were first won over by him especially his tactical awareness. Hosemi and Krompkamp were not quality enough. What has changed, Finnan apart from Pennant is my most improved player especially on his tactical game intelligence with credit going to the coaching team and his eargerness to learn, even from his press speeches you can tell his confidence level have upped. We also have the versatile Arbeola knocking at the door and he is an apt replacement for the RB position.
Left back, well this is the area that is giving Rafa the greatest of all problems and again the area where he has rotated the most. Rafa likes the work ethic of Riise but he also knows his limitations as a conventional left back hence the interest in Gabriel Heinze; eversince Rafa took over we have never had a dependable left back and i differ when people talk of Aurelio as the answer to our left back problems yes he is a good left back with attacking flair but he does not offer the solidity that Heinze would have offered and this is what Rafa was looking at when he was optimistic about bringing him to Anfield. What has changed, again we have Arbeloa who has done well and soon coming Aurelio but again this will be the most rotated side in the defense as i feel Rafa has not got what he really wants there.

With the above in mind, Rafa will use his managerial philosophy effectively now and again it will be essential in our landing the triple this season; FA Cup, Champions League and NO 19 ( and call me optimistic )

Sound post, mate. :nod

by **Sabre** » Thu Aug 30, 2007 4:08 pm

Yes, that was a sound post, whoever said in the past newbies are not heard, take note of posters like that.

There are so many little factors in football that are important, that it's difficult to bear in mind all of them. For me one of the reasons we had bad games in the start of the last season was the back 4. We lost Carra and we had Agger, which in terms of personnel sounds right, but Agger has now a year more of experience which he had not yesteryear, and you pay such details a lot when you talk about the back 4, because it must work as accurate as a clock. Add to the equation a newbie Pennant, a injured Kewell, an unadapted Gonzalez, a not in form world cup players, and you have games like Everton away, which you dominated, but in a couple of unaccuracies, the bast made you two goals in two counters.

Let's not forget neither that Rafa has corrected mistakes... elsewhere. Remember how a month ago or so he announced that he changed the preseason plans. He introduced more ball exercises in the training sessions rather than the ball-less physical work it's normal at this stage. Preseason work is something we don't watch at TV, and it counts as much as the men you pick for the early games. THere you have another possible factor for a better start.

by **Wilhelmsson** » Thu Aug 30, 2007 9:03 pm

Sabre, your defence of Rafa is admirable and nothing you have stated is incorrect or inaccurate, but this discussion is about Rafa’s rotation policy, it’s not about his pre-season training regime, injuries suffered or Rafa righting his wrongs. You are clearly very fond of rotation, which is acceptable, but you are bringing in other aspects of the game when they are simply not needed in the discussion.

At times last season, from what I was observing Rafa seemed to be rotating for the sake of rotation, maybe it was to keep the players satisfied and to help keep a positive morale in the dressing room, but it had negative repercussions on some of our results and in turn had an effect on where we finished in the league standing.

Rafa has a habit of rotating a team which has played well prior to his present team selection for example, there was times where Crouch scored a goal and looked on form, the next match Crouch would be dropped to the bench and replaced by Bellamy and then there would be slight changes here and there. If a team wins convincingly in a match, that same team should be selected for the following match and personnel should only change if there is a suspension, fatigue or a slight/serious injury within the team.

Rotation is great when the team is winning, but when you are losing and going through the downward motions, rotation is the last thing which should be used. So far this season, Rafa’s rotation has been wise and stable, he is not over doing things and if he can keep things the way they are then rotation will prove to be a useful tool in the team’s arsenal.

by **Igor Zidane** » Thu Aug 30, 2007 9:31 pm

Wilhelmsson wrote:Sabre, your defence of Rafa is admirable and nothing you have stated is incorrect or inaccurate, but this discussion is about Rafa’s rotation policy, it’s not about his pre-season training regime, injuries suffered or Rafa righting his wrongs. You are clearly very fond of rotation, which is acceptable, but you are bringing in other aspects of the game when they are simply not needed in the discussion.

At times last season, from what I was observing Rafa seemed to be rotating for the sake of rotation, maybe it was to keep the players satisfied and to help keep a positive morale in the dressing room, but it had negative repercussions on some of our results and in turn had an effect on where we finished in the league standing.

Rafa has a habit of rotating a team which has played well prior to his present team selection for example, there was times where Crouch scored a goal and looked on form, the next match Crouch would be dropped to the bench and replaced by Bellamy and then there would be slight changes here and there. If a team wins convincingly in a match, that same team should be selected for the following match and personnel should only change if there is a suspension, fatigue or a slight/serious injury within the team.

Rotation is great when the team is winning, but when you are losing and going through the downward motions, rotation is the last thing which should be used. So far this season, Rafa’s rotation has been wise and stable, he is not over doing things and if he can keep things the way they are then rotation will prove to be a useful tool in the team’s arsenal.

Yer see this is the bit i don't get . Do you really think Rafa would rotate for the sake of it , just because he's alittle bit bored sitting in his office ,so he say's to himself i know i'll just have a little tinker with the team .

Now obviously he doesn't do that , he has reason's for making changes ie loss of form ,injury and tiredness. We will never know . Give the fella a little bit of credit ,you don't have to agree with him by any means ,but atleast accept that he's not doing it on some sort of whim

by **Sabre** » Thu Aug 30, 2007 9:32 pm

Sabre, your defence of Rafa is admirable and nothing you have stated is incorrect or inaccurate, but this discussion is about Rafa’s rotation policy, it’s not about his pre-season training regime, injuries suffered or Rafa righting his wrongs. You are clearly very fond of rotation, which is acceptable, but you are bringing in other aspects of the game when they are simply not needed in the discussion.

Maybe so. IMHO, if one poster is arguing that rotation was the problem through out the last couple of seasons, and I disagree, I have to explain why, and I have to point out other possible reasons to explain why our season starts were poor, or our league position dissapointing, so that my board mates consider them, otherwise it would be a hollow disagreement.

So excuse me if I ignore your remark about what's necessary or not in this discussion.

by **Wilhelmsson** » Thu Aug 30, 2007 9:51 pm

Igor, I’m noting my judgements, I’ve not said Rafa rotates for the sake of it, I am saying that at times last season Rafa seemed to be rotating for little reason. Crouch was our best attacker last season and yet he didn’t get half the playing time he should have gotten IMO. It seemed to me that Rafa shuffled the deck to keep the keep certain players happy, now if he is doing this, then he making a mistake, because look at Mourinho's no nonsense policy with the likes of SWP who didn't get games until he earned games. Rafa might not have been rotating for little reason, of course we don’t know, but I am certain Crouch didn’t spend most of last season injured.

Sabre, I suppose you have a point and feel free to ignore my comment, it’s just you are stating the obvious with regards to the other aspects of the game. A settled side will play better and have a better morale than constant chopping and changing and if players can’t play in a match because they have picked up a slight knock in training then the players should opt for a career in water polo.

by **Igor Zidane** » Thu Aug 30, 2007 9:55 pm

"At times last season from what i was observing Rafa seemed to be rotating for the sake of rotation" , explain please.

by **Sabre** » Thu Aug 30, 2007 9:59 pm

Sabre, I suppose you have a point and feel free to ignore my comment, it’s just you are stating the obvious with regards to the other aspects of the game. A settled side will play better and have a better morale than constant chopping and changing and if players can’t play in a match because they have picked up a slight knock in training then the players should opt for a career in water polo.

I agree that what I've said is not rocket science. Precisely because of that, I don't know why rotation has been a traditional debate source in this forum for a lot of time, as there are other obvious reasons (squad depth, preseason plans, injuries) that have been key aswell. My point, is that there might have been errors in rotation, no doubt, but I don't think it's the main source of problems. Rather, it's an useful method.

A settled side will play better and have a better morale than constant chopping and changing

That statement is classic and true. And it's not rocket science neither. That has been truth forever, but in the last decades football, you're putting into the equation of big teams a big amount of wednesday games. And that affects a settled team to the point of teams that made it to the Champions league, being relegated (See Celta de Vigo 3 years ago).

Rotation and deep squads have been a modern answer to bridge this gap.

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