Liverpool FC Forum

by **Sabre** » Thu Aug 23, 2007 7:14 pm

Trainers or Trabs, even. Thanks mate

by **LegBarnes** » Thu Aug 23, 2007 9:08 pm

Bad Bob wrote:
LegBarnes wrote:Well i am sure he can fight his own corner badbob.
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Fans like that , give me the creeps.

How about getting behind him and doing what fans do errr which is Surporting your club and players.

Not writing them off before they even got started.

I know if rafa heard these comment he hold his head in shame.

I've no doubt fivecups can defend himself just fine so I'm not doing it for him--I'm pulling you up because you're out of line and that annoys me.

Rest assured that all of us--bar a few wind-up merchants--do support the club and its players. That doesn't mean we all have to have the same opinion about everything. And, saying that Torres isn't likely to score 20 for us this season is by no means writing him off. Hell, Rafa's basically said the same thing himself so I don't think he's going to heap shame on people on here for having the same opinion.

Look, you've been here for a month, racked up 140-odd posts and you're already calling a respected poster clueless and creepy for stating a perfectly valid opinion. If you don't agree, that's okay. If you want to debate the issue that's fine. But dismissing the input of posters you haven't been around long enough to get to know is bang out of order, in my book. Sort it out.

Well i been here for a month fair enuff but i been a liverpool fan for 15 years not counting my youth years and i played football at pro level.

He stated his views and i commented on them with my views clueless didnt meen he was clueless only on that comment that was my view.

You are sounding very hipercritical at the moment saying to let him have his view and not let me have mine.

If he has a problem with it then he can talk to me and we will sort it out but its none of your buisness really i didnt want a fight but you keep going on about it.

What am i not good enuff to be in your club ?

I dont get why you got all high and mighty its not realy your place to saying this is it ? or have i missed some thing.

i do respect his views just a felt they was way to harse for so early in the season way way to harse.

Seem every one wants another flowler but he was a 1 in a million player and i dont think we should be exspecting that just to get behind what we have and surport them.

I think he will get 20 this season i really do and its not based on that 1 goal he score its because i have watched him alot in spain and i know his game will be better in the prem due to fact defences play higher up the pitch and in spain they always pretty deep , he has alot of pace a great first touch and can finish as good as any one i have seen.

Also on a last note i think its total out of order to bring up fact i have only been here a month and use that to make me feel bad about things it dont matter i am a liverpool fan and i think at the end of the day that should be all that matters.

I respect you BadBoB more so cos you clearly understand what a leg robbie was , but more so as a liverpool fan YNWA

by **Sabre** » Thu Aug 23, 2007 9:34 pm

I think he will get 20 this season i really do and its not based on that 1 goal he score its because i have watched him alot in spain and i know his game will be better in the prem due to fact defences play higher up the pitch and in spain they always pretty deep , he has alot of pace a great first touch and can finish as good as any one i have seen.

Deep? well, there's some different approaches out there mate.

Well, except from Barcelona few teams start the play passing right from the defender. When there's a goal kick, the likes of Getafe, Recreativo, expect the ball from the keeper in the middle, advancing a lot the defence, and making an a big press effort if they lose the ball. Off side trap tactic is used often. Which means, that there's plenty of chances for the pacy players to make harm in the league aswell mate.

Torres has skill, has a wide range of finishing, but I disagree you've seen few finishing better than him. Owen in Real Madrid, let alone Liverpool was a far better finnisher, Diego Milito is a better finnisher, there are quite a few who are better in the art of not hesitating inside a box, IMHO.

Does that mean that he's not worth to come here? no, I think he generates a lot of danger by himself. For the reasons explain above, when you're dominated a man like Torres can shake the siege and give you a lot of air. I think our other strikers will be benefited from the danger he creates. More even so if he learns sometimes not to try individual play and look around. I think he's quality, I think he'll improve a lot of our squad, but just saying that 20 goals in the league are very difficult to achieve.

No matter which player of the squad you pick we could list a number of cons in their game. Mate, if Torres, with that dribling, with that control while he's running, and with that pace was also a clinical finisher, He'd be the best striker in the world, and Spain wouldn't have failed once again to go through the world cup's quarter of finals.

by **Bad Bob** » Thu Aug 23, 2007 9:39 pm

LegBarnes wrote:
Bad Bob wrote:
LegBarnes wrote:Well i am sure he can fight his own corner badbob.
.
.
.
Fans like that , give me the creeps.

How about getting behind him and doing what fans do errr which is Surporting your club and players.

Not writing them off before they even got started.

I know if rafa heard these comment he hold his head in shame.

I've no doubt fivecups can defend himself just fine so I'm not doing it for him--I'm pulling you up because you're out of line and that annoys me.

Rest assured that all of us--bar a few wind-up merchants--do support the club and its players. That doesn't mean we all have to have the same opinion about everything. And, saying that Torres isn't likely to score 20 for us this season is by no means writing him off. Hell, Rafa's basically said the same thing himself so I don't think he's going to heap shame on people on here for having the same opinion.

Look, you've been here for a month, racked up 140-odd posts and you're already calling a respected poster clueless and creepy for stating a perfectly valid opinion. If you don't agree, that's okay. If you want to debate the issue that's fine. But dismissing the input of posters you haven't been around long enough to get to know is bang out of order, in my book. Sort it out.

Well i been here for a month fair enuff but i been a liverpool fan for 15 years not counting my youth years and i played football at pro level.

He stated his views and i commented on them with my views clueless didnt meen he was clueless only on that comment that was my view.

You are sounding very hipercritical at the moment saying to let him have his view and not let me have mine.

If he has a problem with it then he can talk to me and we will sort it out but its none of your buisness really i didnt want a fight but you keep going on about it.

What am i not good enuff to be in your club ?

I dont get why you got all high and mighty its not realy your place to saying this is it ? or have i missed some thing.

i do respect his views just a felt they was way to harse for so early in the season way way to harse.

Seem every one wants another flowler but he was a 1 in a million player and i dont think we should be exspecting that just to get behind what we have and surport them.

I think he will get 20 this season i really do and its not based on that 1 goal he score its because i have watched him alot in spain and i know his game will be better in the prem due to fact defences play higher up the pitch and in spain they always pretty deep , he has alot of pace a great first touch and can finish as good as any one i have seen.

Also on a last note i think its total out of order to bring up fact i have only been here a month and use that to make me feel bad about things it dont matter i am a liverpool fan and i think at the end of the day that should be all that matters.

I respect you BadBoB more so cos you clearly understand what a leg robbie was , but more so as a liverpool fan YNWA

See my PM, lad.

by **Scottbot** » Wed Aug 29, 2007 7:07 pm

Paul Tomkins

We know the identities of those players who win the most plaudits. And almost always it's deservedly so. Such reputations are earned.

Fernando Torres is the latest player heading for that category. But not every player gets his due recognition.

Of course, some players get called an unsung hero so many times they can no longer be considered unappreciated. Steve Finnan is one such player. No sane Liverpool fan underrates him now, although he doesn't always receive his due recognition from outside the club.

Jamie Carragher is perhaps the epitome of unsung-becomes-much-vaunted. So no player is consigned to the category for life.

Part of the problem in appreciating a player is that many people seem to get obsessed with what he can't do, rather than what he can.

Maybe even Torres will suffer this. You know the kind of thing: he doesn't score goals as frequently as so-and-so.

At present, Torres has played three league games: two fairly tricky away fixtures and one very tricky home one. His goal ratio is currently one in three. But he has played a massive part in the winning of both away games, and his goal was likely to prove the winner against Chelsea until the referee intervened.

He was also heavily involved in goals at Villa Park and the Stadium of Light, and but for inspired keeping, might have five or six strikes to his name now.

I'm a big proponent of stats, when used sensibly. But there is something statistically immeasurable about what Fernando Torres does to a defence during 90 minutes. He may miss chances, but the team will score lots of goals because of his superb all-round play. He creates openings for others in so many different ways, both directly and indirectly.

For a flair player he works phenomenally hard. So not only does he give centre-backs no time to rest when they're on the ball, he also runs them ragged when it's at his feet or when he's running off the ball. After 60 minutes those centre-backs must be close to nervous breakdowns.

It might not win him as many headlines, so it is the unsung part of his game: the wearing down of the opposition.

But how do you measure the stress and strain a defence feels with statistics? You can't. You need heart-rate monitors and cortisol tests. You need to check for new grey hairs after the final whistle, and look for hardened man-markers curled up in the corner of the changing room, crying for their mummies.

If you force a mistake from a defender, embarrass him with a piece of skill or blitz him with a burst of pace, even if you don't score you've affected his confidence. Do it continually, and he'll unravel. The moment against Sunderland when Torres burst between the Nosworthy and McShane will have given them nightmares. It was frighteningly direct.

So when Torres received the ball from Babel in the 87th minute, they will have had no idea what he was going to do with it; particularly if they'd also watched what Torres did to Ben-Haim a week earlier. While Torres had the vision and ability to calmly stroke a perfectly-weighted pass into Voronin's path for the second goal, by then it was against tired and tormented defenders who dare not get too close to the Spaniard for fear of further embarrassment.

Another problem is comparing players with those they shouldn't be expected to match up to. It depends where you set the benchmark. While it should be high for any Liverpool player, you have to look at what they do for the team, not just their eye-catching individual moments.

If you compare Dirk Kuyt with Marco van Basten, then like most mere mortals the Liverpool man will suffer. Of course, that doesn't mean you should go to the other end of the spectrum and compare him with Marco Boogers. But Dirk Kuyt offers his own unique qualities that should be appreciated. He's a 'modern' footballer, and while some people will use that as a criticism, I see it only as a plaudit.

Last year he didn't score in the Champions League until the very last minute of the final, but his selfless performances, particularly against Barcelona and Chelsea, were crucial in progressing. He helped win those games.

His role in Torres' goal against Chelsea sums up why I admire him so much. The ball was in the air in the centre circle in Liverpool's half, and Kuyt ran back and jumped with more conviction against the much taller Obi Mikel, and won the ball for the Reds. Had he not, Liverpool would have been under the cosh.

But from there Alonso headed to Gerrard, and suddenly a lightning break was underway.

But apart from Kuyt's involvement there, I loved the way he burst forward to support his strike partner. A lot of other hardworking strikers would have seen their involvement in the move as over –– watching with admiration as the ball disappeared upfield –– but not Kuyt, and that's why I think he has the right instincts.

Not only had Torres got a 30-yard head-start on Kuyt when Gerrard's pass was released, but Kuyt doesn't have the Spaniard's pace. However, at the exact moment Torres struck the ball towards goal, with four Chelsea players chasing back, Kuyt arrived unmarked into the 'D' of the penalty area. Had Torres decided the angle was against him he could have rolled the ball to the penalty spot for the oncoming Dutchman to strike home. Similarly, if Cech had parried the shot, Kuyt stood a good chance of nabbing the rebound.

Two years ago Peter Crouch was something of an unsung hero. Then he found his goalscoring touch, and now people are wondering why he isn't playing. But for the first time, it seems, Benítez has four strikers he is very happy with. That said, he can't play them all, obviously.

But I'd be surprised if Crouch doesn't have a significant role to play this season. With Torres able to hold the ball up away from home, as well as burst in behind defences, it's perhaps now at Anfield where Crouch will be deployed most. If teams come to sit back, then Crouch's aerial presence will trouble them around the area. Pair him with Torres, and that's two tall strikers to feed on crosses from another unsung hero who's winning over the fans in droves: Jermaine Pennant.

Given that his arrival was low-key, and he was not a household name, Andriy Voronin seemed destined, in the eyes of a lot of fans, to fill the position of underrated squad member. But if he carries on with his quick and clever movement, deft touches, powerful shooting and hard work, he certainly won't be an unsung hero. I expected him to be a handy free transfer, but he's been far better than anticipated.

Not as overtly tricky as Luis Garcia, he appears to have his goalscoring knack, while being more consistent with his passing.

Alvaro Arbeloa is another who doesn't win many headlines, but who continues to impress. I said when he first joined that he reminded me of Rob Jones, in both his physicality and his ability to look as comfortable at left-back as on the right. He's quick, and a tenacious tackler, but he also has a lot of skill.

Momo Sissoko, hero at the weekend, is a player who sometimes splits fan opinion. To my mind he has an under-appreciated ability on the ball, and the pace and quick feet to go past people –– meaning he has the potential to become a real attacking force. His main strength is breaking up play, but when he does so he often looks to get the ball quickly upfield with a forceful run.

But until this weekend, his finishing clearly let him down. The other major criticism relates to his passing, but I've always felt a lot of it is down to him being too 'excited' from chasing and closing people down. He's 100mph without possession, and sometimes is the same with it. Again, that can be great when he's bursting forward, but at times he needs to pause for a second and take stock.

But the ability to pass is there, even if he's never going to be a ball-playing maestro like Alonso. At 22, he has so much time to mature and develop. While players can continue to improve their technique as they grow older, providing they work at their game, a bigger change can come with improvements to their decision making and composure. That comes almost naturally, with age and experience.

But Sissoko is up against some really talented players for a starting berth in the centre of midfield.

Anyone not featuring much now will get their share of chances before May. Benítez hasn't thrown in too many of the new boys for the league games, to ensure some stability and familiarity to the start. But Rafa will rest and rotate when he sees the need, and with three players breaking bones within the space of six days, injuries will present opportunities.

I wouldn't like to be the person who had to decide which players weren't even going to make the 16 on match-day, as each seems good enough. And while it will be tricky for Benítez too, it's the only way a manager would want it. It's ten times better than struggling to find those good enough to include.

I sense Benítez now has well over 20 players whom he rates and trusts. Kewell, Benayoun, Crouch, Lucas, Mascherano –– these are players in whom the manager has either shown great faith over the years, or tracked the progress of during that time. They're clearly important players to Benítez.

But it's now got to the stage that he has no obvious passengers in the squad. And that can only bode well.

by **Scottbot** » Wed Aug 29, 2007 7:18 pm

Latest article is a decent read (some of them aren't) and in particular he makes the point that SO MANY fans focus ONLY on what a player can't do and forget to consider, mention or even appreciate what they can do. Crouch for me is the biggest victim of this. Scan the match thread and all i see (for the most part) is references to the chances he missed. Not a shred of credit given for his overall performance and the fact he scored the most important goal of the game (the first one) with an excellent finish. I know Crouch is never gonna be prolific (is 8 in 10 champ league games prolific?) and i've pretty much accepted it. To be honest it goes without saying but still you have to sift through post after post repeating the same old stuff time and time again. It's the same with so many other players, 'Kuyt doesn't get in the box enough', 'Momo can't pass for toffee', bang on the money with both of those statements but still it gets repeated again and again. I just think you have to accept a few of these flaws and spend a little time appreciating, and maybe even talking about what these players do bring to the side.

by **Bad Bob** » Wed Aug 29, 2007 8:15 pm

Scottbot wrote:Latest article is a decent read (some of them aren't) and in particular he makes the point that SO MANY fans focus ONLY on what a player can't do and forget to consider, mention or even appreciate what they can do. Crouch for me is the biggest victim of this. Scan the match thread and all i see (for the most part) is references to the chances he missed. Not a shred of credit given for his overall performance and the fact he scored the most important goal of the game (the first one) with an excellent finish. I know Crouch is never gonna be prolific (is 8 in 10 champ league games prolific?) and i've pretty much accepted it. To be honest it goes without saying but still you have to sift through post after post repeating the same old stuff time and time again. It's the same with so many other players, 'Kuyt doesn't get in the box enough', 'Momo can't pass for toffee', bang on the money with both of those statements but still it gets repeated again and again. I just think you have to accept a few of these flaws and spend a little time appreciating, and maybe even talking about what these players do bring to the side.

It's a fair point, that, mate. In that vein, I'd like to set aside Kuyt's misses from last night and focus on the two chances he did finish off. Two outstanding strikes that were far from easy. The first, especially, was a cracker, as he looked to have been closed down. Yet, he managed to keep his nerve and squeeze off the shot, getting his angle just right to bang it in off the far post. For the second he was at full stretch to get a toe to the incisive through ball from Benayoun, doing just enough to lift to the point where the keeper could only deflect rather than block the chip. And, as long as I'm talking about Dirk, I might as well mention the excellent turn and thunderous blast that the defender did ever so well to get a toe in front of at full stretch, deflecting the shot onto the bar. Dirk's not quite the plodder many think he is--IMO, he's got the capacity to be a very effective goal scorer for us.

by **Sabre** » Wed Aug 29, 2007 9:13 pm

I liked that article because it defends unsung heroes.

I don't like when I read that despite we won 4-0, Kuyt gave an assist, and scored two goals, he failed too many.

Torres failed too many aswell, and for what is worth, we paid more for him than for Kuyt. I like people giving credit to a country mate and that they value that after all for a good player the "physicallity" of the premiership is not such a barrier. Of course I do.

But I don't like it when I see very good players like Kuyt and Crouch underrated in the process.

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