Liverpool FC Forum

by **red37** » Sat Aug 11, 2007 7:21 pm

Moderation, where necessary and for the good of the team is all that should matter...along with a bit less apprehension over who our opponents are. Not saying lack respect but get your own house in order and confidence will certainly come as a result of that stability and balance, as was proven today.

Now there is a platform to build upon for the next game.

by **stmichael** » Wed Aug 15, 2007 11:56 am

I read a piece with Pako recently in which he gave a passionate sermon on his and Rafa's belief in the physical and psychological benefits of rotation, especially throughout an English season in which you are demanded to compete in every competition...

This season, as opposed to bowing to public pressure, we will see less of this and I think it sees Rafa and his team adapting thier style a little but certainly not to the extent that many of us feel will be necessary to win the League. Not that we won't be having a royal old go at it.

I also think it fits in with his reticence to buy "big stars"; he clearly had an option to bid for a Mancini, Quaresma or Alves but bought two players in Babel and Benayoun; players who aren't overly motivated by cash, want to improve and develop, eschew the public eye and are therefore more receptive to the squad ethos.

by **66-1112520797** » Wed Aug 15, 2007 12:17 pm

I also think it fits in with his reticence to buy "big stars"; he clearly had an option to bid for a Mancini, Quaresma or Alves but bought two players in Babel and Benayoun; players who aren't overly motivated by cash, want to improve and develop, eschew the public eye and are therefore more receptive to the squad ethos.

I actually quite like this about Rafa ... It is nice to see some big names come in from time to time, and not just because their big names but good players to go with it. Ala Torres, and I think Torres has got the kind of character in him that Rafa is looking for, I just hope Torres can prove some of the doubters wrong and I may include myself in this with his goals ratio. But Really you want players that WANT to play football rather than earn a decent crust, and I think the players who have signed this summer are the players we want, in terms of character anyway.

I read a piece with Pako recently in which he gave a passionate sermon on his and Rafa's belief in the physical and psychological benefits of rotation, especially throughout an English season in which you are demanded to compete in every competition...

I dont think I quite believe in the extent of the psycological mambo jumbo stuff that Pako and Rafa believe in, well to believe that rotation helps the players, maybe it does in a physical why and towards the tail end of the season, But not at the begininng I'm sorry but no way. To win the league I believe the core of the team have to remian throughout the majority of the campaign, rotate if and when players become injured but not just for the sake of it. It just doesnt allow the team and players to get momentum together. However I would of believed in it if Rafa had proved us wrong in the last couple of seasons with his rotation policy, but for me its failed almost miserably. Maybe Rafa has learnt this as a lesson after the side he fielded against Villa at the weekend, but I've got a sneaky feeling he wont be able to resist the temptation of juggling his team around again this season. Hope I'm wrong though.

by **stmichael** » Wed Aug 15, 2007 12:32 pm

Bamaga man wrote:I dont think I quite believe in the extent of the psycological mambo jumbo stuff that Pako and Rafa believe in, well to believe that rotation helps the players, maybe it does in a physical why and towards the tail end of the season, But not at the begininng I'm sorry but no way. To win the league I believe the core of the team have to remian throughout the majority of the campaign, rotate if and when players become injured but not just for the sake of it. It just doesnt allow the team and players to get momentum together. However I would of believed in it if Rafa had proved us wrong in the last couple of seasons with his rotation policy, but for me its failed almost miserably. Maybe Rafa has learnt this as a lesson after the side he fielded against Villa at the weekend, but I've got a sneaky feeling he wont be able to resist the temptation of juggling his team around again this season. Hope I'm wrong though.

My perception of Rafa's approach to rotation - as opposed to that used by other top managers-is that they tend to rotate when they have to (when a player is injured or properly knackered), whereas he rotates to anticipate possible problems. For example, I've read speculation that Gerrard may be "rested" today to make sure he's ready for Sunday. Whilst I'm in favour of any policy that actually works (ie, we win both games), I can't accept for one second that Steven Gerrard needs a rest after one competitive match this season. I suppose what I'm saying is that I haven't seen nearly enough evidence of the benefits of Rafa's rotation policy. What he seemed to be suggesting in a recent interview was that this is the first season when it will be able to work properly as it's only this season he's had the requisite strength in depth in his squad. Obviously, time will tell.

He did this at Valencia and claimed that by rotating players right from the beginning (ie not just when they're "tired") means that he has a full squad of players still operating at 100% when it comes to the last quarter of the season. So Valencia were able to grind the competition to dust and win the title. His title-winning sides won far more points towards the end of the season than his rivals, even allowing for them being a few points ahead going into the run-in.

Obviously this hasn't quite worked the same way, because although we're still finishing strongly (well, generally) we've been too far behind for it to make any difference.

by **DAV** » Thu Aug 16, 2007 12:24 pm

RB says no player can play every game- fair comment
So if this is his policy which i do not agree with then how come Gerrard, Carragher and Rheina will play every game this season - injury pending
Play the best eleven every game, and forget rotation

by **Salty Sock** » Thu Aug 16, 2007 1:57 pm

Espionage wrote:Who the hell i Salty Sock.. and why is my name in his list of friends

You gave your consort!

by **god_bless_john_houlding** » Thu Aug 16, 2007 4:12 pm

I don't like rotation, but as we've seen already this year, Rafa is keeping with rotation and we've won both games, so lets stop complaining about it and back it to the end, as we all would if we go on and win the league, so lets support the rotation policy wheter we like it or not.

by **The_Rock** » Thu Aug 16, 2007 5:46 pm

Won't complain about rotation as long as we are winning....

by **DAV** » Thu Aug 16, 2007 6:42 pm

My point wasnt a complaint but a valid point. If as RB states, all players need a rest and no one can play every game for fitness issues and sharpness ,then does this not apply to carragher gerrard and Rheina.
It contradicts his own methods.
I dont want them dropped, but do not understand the policy if it does not apply accross the board to all players.
I'm sure the players them selves must see this.
Even if people on here don't.

by **Wilhelmsson** » Thu Aug 16, 2007 7:06 pm

DAV wrote:My point wasnt a complaint but a valid point. If as RB states, all players need a rest and no one can play every game for fitness issues and sharpness ,then does this not apply to carragher gerrard and Rheina.
It contradicts his own methods.
I dont want them dropped, but do not understand the policy if it does not apply accross the board to all players.
I'm sure the players them selves must see this.
Even if people on here don't.

If Rafa’s methods are a case of contradiction than every manager who adopts the rotation approach contradicts their own methods.

I understand your point though, it does seem like favouritism, but the crucial point not to overlook here is that Reina, Carragher and Gerrard are our three most gifted players, playing in three crucial areas which should not be exposed to rotation on a regular basis.

All three players will be rotated because of injury, suspension, fatigue and will make way for younger players in the ‘smaller’ games we shall play this season.

by **Emerald Red** » Thu Aug 16, 2007 7:09 pm

DAV wrote:My point wasnt a complaint but a valid point. If as RB states, all players need a rest and no one can play every game for fitness issues and sharpness ,then does this not apply to carragher gerrard and Rheina.
It contradicts his own methods.
I dont want them dropped, but do not understand the policy if it does not apply accross the board to all players.
I'm sure the players them selves must see this.
Even if people on here don't.

Exactly. That's a very good point. Does this mean to say Gerrard and Carragher are twice as fit as everyone else? I know these two have been at the club longer, and as such, does Benitez really value them as being the heart and sole of the success of Liverpool. If we lose Gerrard and Carragher for long spell, would that mean we don't have the strength and depth to replace them? If that's so, then I don't like the sittuation. Having seeing Gerrard and Carragher give gargantuan efforts on the pitch and doing things that no on else seems to be doing sometimes really does annoy me. Someone hinted that Gerrard looked like the only one that's capable of scoring for us before the CL game yesterday. It's unsettling. It either means that the rest of the team isn't pulling their weight, or they arn't of the quality that we all think. Gerrard leads by example, and I'd like to see the rest emulate that. In the game yesterday, Gerrard latched onto a loose ball outside the area and chested it inside and burst into the box round two defenders and had an effort that hit the side of the net. It was deemed hand-ball, but seeing him doing that I thought "why don't I ever see Alonso or Kuyt doing this?" Why is it always left to Gerrard to give us a little spark in the game?

My point is, if players are being rotated round Gerrard, then it's difficult for them to learn his traits or for them to become key individuals themselves as Gerrard and Carragher is. Rafa bought a striker for 21 million in Torres. For that money, I'd at leat have expected him to start in most games in order for him to start finding his feet and the back of the net. I was stunned to see him left out of yesterday's game, and a little bit angry. I know the Chelsea game may have been a slight factor in this, but as far as I'm concerened, this game was just as important, if not more so. We wer comfortable, yes; but other than Voronin's wonder strike, we didn't seem to threaten at all. If you ask me, I would have played the same team that was set out against Villa at the weekend. To see it changed so drastically like that wasn't a good indication and a sign of things to come. We won, yes. But if we come to another crunch game and the same sittuation occurs and we lose due to drastic changes, things will start getting ugly and that's when Mr Benitez will start feeling the pressure if he hasn't already.

by **DAV** » Fri Aug 17, 2007 2:25 pm

thank god
someone with a decent response,instead of STOP MOANING, WE ARE WINNING ARNT WE
Least someone see's what i'm getting at.
Seems to me, alot of people have no opinions of their own, and i wonder if they have any interest in Liverpool FC.
Back the manager, yes ,and the team, but opinions, ideas and football chat are one of things that makes our football great and this forum for that matter.

by **muzodziwa** » Fri Aug 17, 2007 5:21 pm

i have just looked at the teams we put out against villa and toulousse, it is certain that Rafa views rotation as a means to competitiveness in the sum total rather than just a tool for replacing injured players or those suffering from fatigue. the article by tompkins though not exhaustive at least sheds a light on the reality of rotation at the top end of any competitive league more so the premiership.

it is however immature to argue facts as they are
1. under rafa's rotation policy we have not won the premiership
2. rafa won the la-liga using the same rotation policy

finding a reconciliation to the above seems a paradox, but looking at it closely apparent things come to the fore;

from pako's comments it seems rafa's approach to rotation is based on excellence in all encounters the team is involved in. His constant statement is the next game is the most important one, which allays his bold approach to the new owners to commit financially to the improvement of the team "taking the team to a new level". Rafa wants to play each game like the cup final, as if thats the last game he is managing, this can easily be illustrated by his almost comical touchline shouting even during the friendlies in Asia. Rafa has experienced victory in unchanted waters whilst at Valencia against star studded teams like Barca and Real M, using rotation, and his managerial philosophy view rotation not as a get out of jail card when the squad is fatigued or suffering injuries but rather as a strtegy to achieve long term and sustained success.

His ethos is not winning the battle, but rather the war...and this becomes a problem for me as a supporter who is longing for that one title that will bring a smile to my face and tell a reality winning story to my 2 young daughters. Rafa is building a culture where if you are a liverpool player you should be good enough to play any day and time when called upon, rather than when someone is injured. This is what he built at Valencia, a team so comfortable in knowing that at any time i can be playing in this team rather than the perpetual feeling that well i am a fringe player whos opportunity will only come when as a plan B.

The merits of his management philosophy have been testified by our appearance in the champions league final twice in 3 yrs, but the his managerial acumen cannot be fully attested until he has won the Premiership. Now is he going to ditch his management tool of rotation when he has greater and more able depth to implement it. Rafa is standing at the door of managerial greatness, using a "controversial" philosophy but that is so Rafa, pure Rafa and having at his disposal greater depth of talent (especially with the imminent arrival of Heinze

), will he ditch the philosophy that has set him apart from many generations of managers and deprive himself of the sense of achievement.

Gentleman and Ladies who have liverpool in their veins, my case is not to support Rafa's rotation policy, but my view is that Rafa is not interested in us winning the Premiership,???

Rafa is interested in making LIVERPOOL FC... THE TRUE CHAMPIONS...Winning everything on offer including the so called insignificant Carling Cup.

And his tool to achieving a high level of competitiveness is rotation, and the way we have started is a testament to this

by **god_bless_john_houlding** » Fri Aug 17, 2007 5:23 pm

Gerrard, Carra and Reina aren't rotated for simple reasons. 1) no fella in their right mind would swap their keeper week in week out, and if Gerrard and Carra were dropped "rotated" there'd be up roar as there was when Gerrard was dropped for the opening game of the European Cup group stages against PSV. Certain players will play almost every game but nobody will play every game, even if they were fit and not suspended nobody would play every game because our so called "key" players will miss out on the league cup and early rounds of the FA.

My view on rotation is still plain and simple. Not neccessary. Players nowadays have the best treatment in the world and they're getting paid between 50 and 120 grand a week to do something they love. If they need a rest because they run for 90 minutes a week, then maybe they should stop writing books and doing silly interviews for magazines. If they're tired, then they should rest instead of ponsing around doing silly activities. Rests for players who play on the best surfaces in the world, is billhooks. Fully fit human beings who play a game where tackles are not allowed need rests....i ask you. But players on 40 ciggys and 10 pints a night, as well as being kicked every minute of the match by Billy Bremner and Chopper Harris didn't need rests. Players nowadays are covered in cotton wool.

by **muzodziwa** » Fri Aug 17, 2007 5:46 pm

as much as we desire to compare different footballing eras it becomes very opinionated with less facts and more feeling. i am not sure if the situation then is the same as it is now, but looking at it from another view, if we have 22 players equally good, what will determine their inclusion into the team. i think first it will be the opposition being faced and secondly the level of perfomance during training sessions not their last game perfomance (though obviously it will be taken into account but will not be the determining factor). This situation will see natural rotation taking place, the only problem comes if the players do not grasp the prionciples of synergy

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