Liverpool FC Forum

by **bigmick** » Sun Jul 22, 2007 5:40 am

Ah Johnnie Wark. Was a really good player before we signed him when at Ipswich, did exactly the same thing as he did at Liverpool just in a slightly (Ipswich were a good side at the time) inferior team. Was good in the air too was Wark, kind of more like a David Platt type of midfileder as I remember than a Gerrard. It says it all about what good teams we've had over the years that midfielders such as John Wark, Craig Johnson and Ronnie Whelan to name just a couple rarely get a mention when people are talking about the greats. We've had some bloody fantastic players over the years there's no doubt about it.

by **112-1077774096** » Sun Jul 22, 2007 6:05 am

i met john wark a couple of years ago in malaysia at the veteran teams hotel, top fella and a top player, and a great actor (escape to victory)

by **woof woof !** » Sun Jul 22, 2007 7:32 am

Lookin' at the stats for Kuyt I'm thinking some of the criticism aimed at him is slightly unfair. He made 34 appearances in the Premiership last season , 7 of them as a sub , and scored 12 goals .Of course we'd like to see more from him but a goal every three games is hardly a poor ratio . Given that Rafa's stated philosophy was that he (Rafa) preferred to see the goals spread throughout the team it could be argued that Kuyt weighed in with his share .

Appearances and scoring from players we would expect/hope to see goals from ,Premiership 2006/2007 (stats from soccerbase)

Crouch prem app 32 goals 9
Bellamy .. 23 .. 7
Fowler .. 15 .. 8
Gerrard .. 36 .. 7
Alonso .. 32 .. 4
Pennant .. 34 .. 1
Riise .. 33 .. 1

As some have alluded to , the thiness of the goal tally may be just as much down to Rafa's employment of certain players and his rotations as it is to the players ability (or lack of).

Kuyt is 27 today . Happy birthday Dirk , keep pulling your weight fella , as you've always done. Hope the next season gets you more reward for your tireless contribution.

by **redmikey** » Sun Jul 22, 2007 11:17 am

rafa saw that we were lacking and has spent big time to put pressure on the front line, i just hope he does get blinkered and give torres infinite time in the first team if he isn't finishing as crouch was a real goal threat last term

rotation early on in the season will be vital for us this season as rafa had to over do it last time due to tiredness and world cup hangover, he will need to keep in touch with the title challengers and see off the early pretenders i.e spurs,pompy etc etc

it is rafa way to rotate but where he plays gerrard and who he plays upfront will be do or die for us early on as SG looks raring to go and if we can get some supply to the front 2/3 or 1 and they take the chances we didn't last year we are capable of mounting a lot of pressure on the other challengers, but imho he will play SG ahead of xabi and masha or momo with kewell or babel out left and pennant or a signing out right with torres and another

torres is to big a fish to spend time on the bench learning English, vorronin has been a pleasant surprise so far and looks sharp as a tac so far and he doesn't lose the ball as easy as luis,but who does (pennant is the new garcia)

the big question is how will rafa keep happy all the players at the club, as we have nearly all the midfielder s in the world at lfc and a massive youth squad who must see the chanse of getting first team games as slim at best, it is a lot of plates to keep spinning imo,

can't wait for the season to start now to get away from all the minor issues and worries

by **god_bless_john_houlding** » Sun Jul 22, 2007 2:42 pm

John Wark was our top scorer once, classic player, never got the praise he deserved. Kuyt for me still isn't going to bang in 20 or more goals and I think that's what we've lacked for some years now. His work rate is second to none, reminds me of the way Ian Rush used to defend from the front, once differance between Rushie and Kuyt is Rush would bang in 20 or more goals year in year out.

by **Penguins** » Sun Jul 22, 2007 3:50 pm

Even if the PL is important how many goals did Kuyt get in the other comp?

Practically nothing if I remember correctly.
Crouch was far and away a much better goal threat last season and still got the bench on many occasions to accomodate Kuyt.

And I not so confident that gerrard will play in the middle given all our CM and the fact that we bought no new right mid(at least not looking like it).

If the other CM can puch up and add to the attacking play more than Kuyt might be able to roam where he is most useful(the box).
But god knows if they will be able to or are allowed to...

by **redmikey** » Sun Jul 22, 2007 7:08 pm

redmikey wrote:rafa saw that we were lacking and has spent big time to put pressure on the front line, i just hope he does get blinkered and give torres infinite time in the first team if he isn't finishing as crouch was a real goal threat last term

rotation early on in the season will be vital for us this season as rafa had to over do it last time due to tiredness and world cup hangover, he will need to keep in touch with the title challengers and see off the early pretenders i.e spurs,pompy etc etc

it is rafa way to rotate but where he plays gerrard and who he plays upfront will be do or die for us early on as SG looks raring to go and if we can get some supply to the front 2/3 or 1 and they take the chances we didn't last year we are capable of mounting a lot of pressure on the other challengers, but imho he will play SG ahead of xabi and masha or momo with kewell or babel out left and pennant or a signing out right with torres and another

torres is to big a fish to spend time on the bench learning English, vorronin has been a pleasant surprise so far and looks sharp as a tac so far and he doesn't lose the ball as easy as luis,but who does (pennant is the new garcia)

the big question is how will rafa keep happy all the players at the club, as we have nearly all the midfielder s in the world at lfc and a massive youth squad who must see the chanse of getting first team games as slim at best, it is a lot of plates to keep spinning imo,

can't wait for the season to start now to get away from all the minor issues and worries

yeah but rush had king kenny putting them on a plate for him, then beardsley , and a team that were by far the most dominant in the league so we were constantly putting teams under pressure

rush was an amazing finisher but to compare dirk to him is unfair as they are different types of players, rush did tack back but was never out wide like dirk and playing in between the line cause he didn't have to, he would be on the shoulder of the old lumbering CB making his text book diagonal run to a straight pass

dirk could do with being a bit more selfish and a bit luckier, he has the work rate and the finish to be top goal scorer this term,but it is up to rafa how deep he plays

by **redmikey** » Sun Jul 22, 2007 7:08 pm

sorry i copied the wrong 1, div

by **stmichael** » Mon Jul 23, 2007 12:12 pm

Scottbot wrote:
stmichael wrote:In my opinion, Kuyt will be our top scorer this season.

He spent the majority of last season out of position playing more an AM/SS role than main striker. 16 times last season Kuyt played as main striker and he scored 12 goals in those games.

Kuyt seems to be the player who divides opinion the most amongst Reds going into this season. Some think he's a waste of space who doesn't carry a goal threat and many believe this will be a big year for him and that he will be playing as a proper striker this year rather than following orders.

From what i have seen of the pre-season fixtures so far he is still playing in a very deep role, dropping off, offering feet and linking play and not getting into the box all that often. As i said earlier in this thread, i don't think Kuyt was playing under orders last season, that was him playing his natural game for the most part. I expect him to get us 15 goals this coming season but have a feeling the 1st choice pairing will be Crouch and Torres by mid-season.

I'd be interested to hear what role everyone expects Kuyt to play next season (particularly Big Mick and St.Mick who think this will be his year)

- Was Kuyt playing under orders last season? Playing deep coz the manager told him to? If so, what makes you think that as can't really it myself?

- What sort of role/position do you expect Kuyt to take up this year and how many goals do you fancy him to score?

Hiya Scottbott.

As you said, last season I think it was fair enough to say Kuyt had his haters and appreciaters. This season however, I feel Kuyt is really going to show how good he is, especially with the Torres signing. I can argue a point for him being our top scorer more than Torres next season truth be told. I think they'll link up really well and be creative for each other. I can't really see why anybody would dislike Kuyt last season. He had a decent return in a side with no creative talent and worked his boll#cks off from day one.

I'm convinced we'll be a lot more attacking this season and Dirk will play a bit higher up the pitch. He's had his year to adjust (and still did fairly well). He's had personal tragedy with his father passing away recently too. All the ingredients for a big season from the Dutchman look in place to me. To be honest though, Dirk is such a good guy that I don't think I could hate him even if he missed every oppurtunity. That said? Please don't do that to us, Dirk.

This doesn't detract though from the fact that I still think that Crouch is our best forward.

by **whylongball?** » Mon Jul 23, 2007 12:24 pm

i agree with you stmichael. I think it will be very interesting to see how he fares this season. I like his powerful shots (though he can do fine with passing the ball into the net sometimes)

by **Scottbot** » Tue Jul 24, 2007 1:19 am

bigmick wrote:Clearly last season, Kuyt didn't do enough. My feeling is though that he has it in him, given firstly the freedom to get into the box and get himself open regularly, and secondly if he plays in a team which doesn't have two central midfielders who rarely get near the oppositions box and insist on standing within five yards of each other.

Still don't buy that Mick, that Kuyt didn't have the freedom to get into the box? He hasn't been getting into the box so far this pre-season and if ever a player has freedom then it surely is at this time of year. I also don't see that Kuyt was playing deep last year to fill the space that our 2 centre-mids should have been occupying. Stevie played the bulk of his games in the middle last season and while he played a far more disciplined game (compared to previous years) he still got plenty further forward than Alonso/Mascherano.

I think we will see a slightly better return from Kuyt this season but would be surprised if he scored more than 15 goals.

Am still offering that bet if anyone else fancies Kuyt over Torres in the scoring stakes this season? :cool:

by **stmichael** » Tue Jul 24, 2007 1:05 pm

Scottbot wrote:Am still offering that bet if anyone else fancies Kuyt over Torres in the scoring stakes this season?

I'm not a betting man. :oops:

FWIW I think that Torres will probably be top scorer, if only for the fact that he'll probably play more regularly than the other strikers. He's also the best attacking player we have

I could argue that both Crouch and Kuyt could get as many goals as Torres if they play as much as him, but Torres will play more because of his additional qualities to goal scoring (awareness, pace, 1 on 1 skills, creativity).

Kuyt is the main outsider though, after having such an impressive rate in his first season. Not many strikers scores that many goals in the first season in PL, and if he can build on that he will be up there. The fact that this is Torres' first season is his main challenge as well, and why someone else could get ahead of him on the top scorer list. I think he will handle that challenge though, his extreme talent will see to that.

by **Owzat** » Tue Jul 24, 2007 1:39 pm

Bottom line on Kuyt is his job is to score, create and help the team score goals. If our goalscoring tally is low, which it was, then all those who didn't really score enough goals have to hold their hands up. I feel he should be more selfish and get into positions to score, working hard is good but not if it means he's too knackered to get into position or indeed is out of position as a consequence. He should leave the hard work to those in the team whose job it is to work hard and win the ball back. We don't need an entirely selfish striker, but he does need to appreciate the main part of his role is to score. If a striker's constantly trying to set someone else up then opportunities go begging as they find players in a worse position or delay long enough for defenders to get back.

I don't judge Kuyt purely by his goals record, however it does need to improve as does the teams's goalscoring as a whole. We can't expect the midfield to score much more than 1/3 of the goals so they have to come from somewhere.

by **whylongball?** » Wed Jul 25, 2007 11:25 am

actually i would like to add..i dont think we can really blame the strikers for not scoring enough last season as the service was horrible sometime. No matter how good a striker is he still needs a decent numnber of chance before he can convert it. Owen, A.Cole come to mind.
Hopefully given the aquisition of new players our strikers can have higher scoring rates

by **god_bless_john_houlding** » Thu Jul 26, 2007 1:59 am

I think the fact that we had the most chances created last season nips that idea of no service to bed straight away. The simple truth is last year our fowards weren't good enough or clinical enough to put the ball in the back of the net on a regular basis. This season I'd like the midfielders to contribute a little more in terms of goals as well.

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