Liverpool FC Forum

by **LFC2007** » Fri Jul 13, 2007 9:27 pm

Why not? In order to gain experience in a European League it seemed a sensible move - West Ham were in Europe and reached the FA cup final the season before - they're a big club, both were complicit, they were not forced. It also suited MSI in that it gave them an opportunity to demonstrate their capabilities in a european league. It's not as if they were under duress, it's a mutual agreement.

by **Bad Bob** » Fri Jul 13, 2007 9:30 pm

LFC2007 wrote:Why not? In order to gain experience in a European League it seemed a sensible move - West Ham were in Europe and reached the FA cup final the season before - they're a big club, both were complicit, they were not forced. It also suited MSI in that it gave them an opportunity to demonstrate their capabilities in a european league. It's not as if they were under duress, it's a mutual agreement.

Don't forget, as well, that the plan was seemingly for MSI to buy West Ham (the bid was made the day after those two signed), making it a sort of Premiership Corinthians. Presumably that idea had some appeal to Tevez and Mascherano.

by **Ace Ventura** » Fri Jul 13, 2007 9:41 pm

Does anyone else reading penguins and puroresu's posts get a hint of the fact that they sort of dont ever want whats best for LFC ?

Things like i am only being realistic but if Manchester United offer 30 million and we offer 20 there is no way he will stay...but to me it reads like.....and why would he ? Stupid naive Liverpool supporters think there club is better and nowhere else matters.

Well news to you....thats what Liverpool SUPPORTERS do think.

You two obviously have a soft spot for our club and would want us to win things but when it comes down to the nitty gritty arent particulaly @rsed if we lose.

Thats how your posts read to me anyway.

And btw whats to say that Mascherano wont win the title here and become even more popular than he is, our fans know how to make players realise how much they mean to us, he might just think ti himself....i'll have some more of that and sign for good.

Not according to you two though cos there's better places to play your football than Anfield isnt there :no

by **Bad Bob** » Fri Jul 13, 2007 9:45 pm

Ace Ventura wrote:Does anyone else reading penguins and puroresu's posts get a hint of the fact that they sort of dont ever want whats best for LFC ?

Things like i am only being realistic but if Manchester United offer 30 million and we offer 20 there is no way he will stay...but to me it reads like.....and why would he ? Stupid naive Liverpool supporters think there club is better and nowhere else matters.

Well news to you....thats what Liverpool SUPPORTERS do think.

You two obviously have a soft spot for our club and would want us to win things but when it comes down to the nitty gritty arent particulaly @rsed if we lose.

Thats how your posts read to me anyway.

And btw whats to say that Mascherano wont win the title here and become even more popular than he is, our fans know how to make players realise how much they mean to us, he might just think ti himself....i'll have some more of that and sign for good.

Not according to you two though cos there's better places to play your football than Anfield isnt there

Got it in one, Ace. :idea

by **LFC2007** » Fri Jul 13, 2007 9:52 pm

I actually think Penguins and Puroresu are two of the most informed posters on this forum, I've no idea what you're talking about ace

by **Ace Ventura** » Fri Jul 13, 2007 9:59 pm

LFC2007 wrote:I actually think Penguins and Puroresu are two of the most informed posters on this forum, I've no idea what you're talking about ace

Haha love it

Seriously though getting seriously f'cked off with arrogant anti LFC sounding posts from these two, especially puroresu (and you know it) anti english i can stomach as this is about LFC...but not anti our club on our frickin forum :angry:

by **Penguins** » Sat Jul 14, 2007 12:07 am

It's about living in the real world and not some dream world.

Just cause we as fans of liverpool think the club is the best thing and biggest club in world football doesn't mean every person in the world think the same.

For tevez and masch to go to West Ham from Corintians says alot about the power and influence of MSI.
That is not even a step up at all and more a case of trying to showcase the 2 players for europes elite.

All players playing for Liverpool except masch are owned by the club and therefore the influence over those players are much greater than over a player that will go back to being MASI property in 1 year.
After that (unless a set fee is set) we have as much say of his future as any other top club in the world.
Nothing will connect him to the club!

And then some think that just cause he has been at liverpool for a season he must had fallen in love with the club and will run around the world and do whatever to come back even if we offer MSI half of what any other club offers.

Listen, I'd be the the 1st to jump out of joy if we got this player as he is and will be top class, but even so I'm not wearing the rose tinted glasses as some and think masch will be ours just cause Masch just loves Liverpool and will go against MSI, Kia and the world to get his wish.

Tevez just said in a interview that Kia was more than an agent, as he also was a close friend. He would always take his advice cause he trusted him very much.
I'm pretty sure Masch is in the same mindset and that MSI has not bought those 2 players to sell them at the players conditions and get maybe 10-15 million less than they could have gotten. And how can some say he would be a merscenary if he left for Chelski or manure for £30m???
Sure, I would hate it but:

1) He was he practically for 1 season and we never owned him! How can some just then demand that no matter what he is never allowed to leave. Once again the misconseption the he is a liverpool player.
2) Once again it is MSI who owns him and decided out of a business point of view what is best. If we can't compete with the money offered by others we just have to move on and not blame Masch for that.
3) You really think Masch will go against MSI, Kia and everyone who actually has influence over him just to go to Liverpool?
Even if Inter, Real, manure, Chelski offered him just as much or more money and the fact the MSI has a contract for 15+ years(or until they sell him) it's Masch's fault for not going?

Some people sure are disillusioned...

by **Happy-Punter** » Sat Jul 14, 2007 12:28 am

Why all the insults in your posts? I dont agree with what you say but I dont say your naive or talking :censored:

.

by **Penguins** » Sat Jul 14, 2007 12:57 am

Where did I say you were talking :censored:

??

Were did I insult you?

by **LFC2007** » Sat Jul 14, 2007 1:14 am

Penguins wrote:It's about living in the real world and not some dream world.

Just cause we as fans of liverpool think the club is the best thing and biggest club in world football doesn't mean every person in the world think the same.

For tevez and masch to go to West Ham from Corintians says alot about the power and influence of MSI.
That is not even a step up at all and more a case of trying to showcase the 2 players for europes elite.

All players playing for Liverpool except masch are owned by the club and therefore the influence over those players are much greater than over a player that will go back to being MASI property in 1 year.
After that (unless a set fee is set) we have as much say of his future as any other top club in the world.
Nothing will connect him to the club!

And then some think that just cause he has been at liverpool for a season he must had fallen in love with the club and will run around the world and do whatever to come back even if we offer MSI half of what any other club offers.

Listen, I'd be the the 1st to jump out of joy if we got this player as he is and will be top class, but even so I'm not wearing the rose tinted glasses as some and think masch will be ours just cause Masch just loves Liverpool and will go against MSI, Kia and the world to get his wish.

Tevez just said in a interview that Kia was more than an agent, as he also was a close friend. He would always take his advice cause he trusted him very much.
I'm pretty sure Masch is in the same mindset and that MSI has not bought those 2 players to sell them at the players conditions and get maybe 10-15 million less than they could have gotten. And how can some say he would be a merscenary if he left for Chelski or manure for £30m???
Sure, I would hate it but:

1) He was he practically for 1 season and we never owned him! How can some just then demand that no matter what he is never allowed to leave. Once again the misconseption the he is a liverpool player.
2) Once again it is MSI who owns him and decided out of a business point of view what is best. If we can't compete with the money offered by others we just have to move on and not blame Masch for that.
3) You really think Masch will go against MSI, Kia and everyone who actually has influence over him just to go to Liverpool?
Even if Inter, Real, manure, Chelski offered him just as much or more money and the fact the MSI has a contract for 15+ years(or until they sell him) it's Masch's fault for not going?

Some people sure are disillusioned...

I think you're the disillusioned one, you miss out on some key points:

1) MSI were looking to buy West Ham, this would have influenced the decision of Mascherano and Tevez when considering the move.

2) At the time West Ham were a good stepping stone to a European League, they came off the back of a great season -they are not a small club. Sometimes the pressure of going straight to a big club can inhibit a player, West Ham were a safe option - they would in all likelihood play first team football and show other clubs what they are capable of. Some players don't want the immediate pressure of going to manure, Barca, Liverpool, Chelski, Madrid or Milan. Do you not understand that West Ham presented both MSI and the two players with an opportunity to adapt to European football for at least 1 season.

3) The decision to move to England was mutual, you are suggesting that MSI had them under duress to move to West Ham - clearly a disillusioned view.

4) You are suggesting that Mascherano has no say in his future, if after this season we win the league and he performs outstandingly, he will feel settled and the fans will take to him - that is a draw. He will have adapted to our team, settled in Liverpool and have a feeling of being welcome. I think you are out of your depth if you think MSI have a unilateral decision over where he plays. You ignore the evidence - the fact that Joorabchian himself said (on third party ownership): "it does not give you any right to influence where he can play".

5) You speculate that we will not have enough money to make the transfer permanent should we decide to do so. We have Billionaire backers, we don't know how much Mascherano would cost, or even if it would be a permanent deal anyway.I suspect that MSI would negotiate with us and give us the overriding option to sign him, even if we did offer less (which is completely speculative). We don't know how any proposed deal may be structured, who's to say we may not pay in installments? It's all speculation,yet you only account for one side of it - the negative side and the unlikely side.

6) The fact that Tevez treats Joorabchian as "more than an agent" - a friend - is pathetic to use as evidence in favour of MSI having undue control over the two players. Is it not OK to be more than a friend with an agent? I think you're reading more into it to suit your argument, either that or you are disillusioned.

7) If he had a highly successful season with us, and manure came in with £30m - which I consider HIGHLY unlikely - I doubt strongly that he would be wholly complicit with it - if the relationship with Joorabchian is so strong as you put it then surely Joorabchian would account for the wishes of the player? But who's to say we wouldn't be able to afford him? I think £20m is a more realistic figure for a permanent deal in any case, but it's entirely speculative.

To sum up, I think your post demonstrates Ace's point, you focus on the negative and the unrealistic.

by **Penguins** » Sat Jul 14, 2007 1:57 am

1) You contradict yourself when you say that MSI was looking to buy West Ham so therefore tevez and MAsch went there.
Does that not if anything show the power of MSI and Kia?
MSI decided for them that WH was the club they had to move to since MSI wanted it.

2) West ham had played it's 1st season in top flight for some time and is normally not a top club as it showed last season and so many seasons before. That 1st season back was just like Wigan before them, having a good year when coming back to the PL then getting back to where they belong.

MSI wanted the players at WH cause it worked best for their business plan since they might get involved in the club financially.
Hey, Masch played in the world cup and was great. He had already done great at River Plate and Corintians and was a full fledged international.
West Ham wouldn't be close on the radar if not for MSI.
Inter, Roma, Milan, top clubs in Spain etc would surely be better for him and much more interesting options.
And tevez is an even worse example.
He prefering to go to WH?
Allow myself to laugh. Won player of the year in Brazil and is one of the most promising players to come from SA in the past few years. Chelski were sniffing about him a few years back and if not for MSI he would had been at a European top club already.

3) Once again I disagree it was mutual to move to England.
Kia gave his "advice and convinced the players WH was their destination. Both trust his judgement and are owned by MSI so they went. Where does it say it was mutual??

4) I'm not suggesting Masch has no say about his future.
He has little say about it. Once again, he unlike our other players in the squad are not a Liverpool player and after 12 month Liverpool would have no say at all. He is all MSI property then as are his registration rights.
He mayb have adopted to the team rafa wants and got and understanding with teammates but MSI wants to maximise profits!
They are in it for one thing only, one thing. And that is not to please Masch or Liverpool, so even if Liverpool bid less than what MSI can get elsewhere we will get him on a discount.
Not going to happen. Sure, masch can influence, but MSI will not allow him to leave for Liverpool for £20m if another club bids alot more. It's not like Masch can threaten to sit out his contract.

5) I have not anywhere said that we will not have enough money to afford Masch!
But we might offer less cause we think £20m is more than enough for him and other might think otherwise.
And I do not think we will get some kind of charity from MSI.
Can't believe you think they would accept less than they can get elsewhere.
I am telling the negative side(as you call it) cause noone did before I wrote about it. Everyone just ignores the fact that it's a probable scenario. There are some scenarioes where we will get him cause of a clause or that we have 1st option etc but there are other ways this could go and there is nothing that say he will be a Liverpool player end of.
You must sometimes step back and analyze the situation objectivly and not just look at it from one perspective.
Which almost everyone did in this thread.
We just have to accept that in some scenarioes masch will not stay and not just keep ignoring that fact.

6) What tevez said was that since he treated him as a friend he valued his advice and trusted him 100%.
For me that sure should count for something.

It's not just the fact that he sees him as a friend but also that Tevez values his advice and trusts him 100%.[U]

7) The fee itself was not important. It was an example just to show that if someone valued him higher and bid higher than we were willing to. Kia would do everything in his power as would MSI to pursuade the player to join their preferred club.

I sure hope we get him to stay, but I'm not like some who hold their hands over their ears and ignores the fact that there are some scenarioes in which we could loose the player.

by **LFC2007** » Sat Jul 14, 2007 2:53 am

1) I don't contradict myself when I say MSI wanting to buy West Ham is a reason FOR Mascherano and Tevez moving there. Why? because the prospect of foreign owners - owners they know- who can invest and build the club is an attractive ideal for two foreign players who have never played in Europe before.

2) You say it was their first time in the top flight for 'some time', two seasons to be precise. Not normally a big club? I suggest you read up on English football, that type of comment is symptomatic of some of the foreign fans who post on this forum who know NOTHING about the history of English football. You compare them to Wigan, I suggest you read up a little. Oh, and allow myself to laugh at your distinctly 'stupid' attitude. Thanks.

3) They moved to West Ham with MUTUAL agreement, that is, it suited BOTH parties. Do you not understand the concept of ADAPTATION to a European league - the scenario suited both of them. Plenty of South American players have made the move directy to 'big' clubs and failed miserably - I would suggest this was factored into the decision. If you are going to move to Europe you need to play, who's to say Tevez and Mascherano would have played at a big club? It's a much greater risk, to their confidence if they fail and to their reputation. You suggest the decision was entirely unilateral - you may need a dictionary for that one, when in reality, both player and MSI have said the agreement is MUTUAL.
Where does it say it was mutual?

KJ on third part transfers:

"it does not give you any right to influence where he can play".

I would suggest that this statement is a fairly strong indication that the agreement is MUTUAL.

4) You say he would have little say in the decision where he moves, it's nonsense. Mascheerano spoke to Rafa before deciding HE wanted to move to us. He could have rejected us, he was not forced, he was not placed under duress - it suited him and MSI. The same applies to Tevez to Manure. You say he is all MSI property, his economic rights are owned by MSI the registration is held by the club - again - you're factually incorrect.

5) They are in it for a profit, but at the expense of p!ssing off the player and a poor working relationsip? I don't think so, I'm pretty confident when I say that MSI would want to comply with the players wishes in order to have an amicable business life with the two - and no doubt they will have other advisors around them - not just MSI. You speculate that we won't get him for less, that is all you so speculate on the unrealistic and negative - a typical computer game fan. Who's to say we will sign him anyway? who's to say we won't be able to afford him? who's to say he will cost so much? Since when has defensive mid cost £30m? Since when have our Billionaire backers said they will not support Rafa's transfer plans? But oh, of course, only you would be as stupid to speculate about the above. You avoid reality.

"It's not like Masch can threaten to sit out his contract"

Well I would suggest that Mascherano has a fairly clear idea of his own future, and that it will not be solely determined by MSI. If we are outbid by £5m next summer IFIFIFIFIFIFIFIFIFIFIFIFIFIFIFIIFIFIFIFIFIFIFIFIFIFIFI we sign him anyway and IFIFIFIFIFIFIFIFIFIFI he costs the value you say he will (£20m) then I would suggest that MSI may just be willing compromise if he is so settled with us - Joorabchian has a good relationship with Rafa. Who's to say the structure of any deal couldn't enable us to sign him above another club? Installments...sell on clauses...success clauses...playing clauses.....etc.... but you wouldn't account for these intricacies since your view is so simplisticly stupid.

6) You can't believe I think they would accept less for him, what evidence is there to suggest we will offer less? Rafa and Joorabchian, Joorabchian and the club, Joorabchian and Mascherano all have a good working relationship - do you really think we would offer less for Mascherano due to misinformation? I think Rafa is well aware of the scenario, he will be informed about it. He would speak to Mascherano's representatives and find out how much he would cost. But you again take the simplistic view that ignores the reality of working relationships. You say it is a probable scenario when it is NOT. It is a misinformed scenario, a possible one, but an UNLIKELY one. If he is going to leave us it will not be because MSI dicated a move away, it will be because a) he doesn't perform next season and is unwanted or b) The player himself wants to move. They are the two likely scenarios, the scenario that says Mascherano wants to stay with us but is forced by MSI to move is the MOST UNLIKELY of all scenarios.
Please don't pontifcate about stepping back and analysing with perspective, you are the most ALARMIST and UNREALISTIC poster on this entire forum and lack any perspective.

7) If the relationship between player and representative/s is so strong, I see no reason why there should not be a reasonable compromise on which club the player wants to join, the balance is not as one sided as you are making out, you are raising your alarmist fears and trying to find any excuse to justify them - the fact that Mascherano/Tevez trust MSI being one such example.

Finally, you don't account for potential contractual intricacies, we do not know the details of the contract.So let me speculate...

What if there is a clause in Mascherano's contract that says he has the final decision on which club he joins? You will point to WHUFC again and say Mascha didn't want to go there meaning that this veto does not exist. In reality there was probably a reasonable conversation between the two parties saying that West Ham offers a safe step into European football where you can adapt, adjust and settle without the pressure of being at a massive club in Europe. I find that explanation far more plausible than, they both would have preferred to play for Chelsea, Milan or on other such club. Maybe they wanted to be together in their pursuit of joining a European league? Maybe being together was not an option at a top European club at that time, I consider these possible explanations far more plausible than "Tevez would never have wanted to move there", it's a simplistic and ignorant view of the scenario.

If you are going to reply next time, please keep it short, I cannot be fecked to write an essay to explain the points you miss every time.

Tara lad

by **Bad Bob** » Sat Jul 14, 2007 4:10 am

Penguins wrote:1) You contradict yourself when you say that MSI was looking to buy West Ham so therefore tevez and MAsch went there.
Does that not if anything show the power of MSI and Kia?
MSI decided for them that WH was the club they had to move to since MSI wanted it.

2) West ham had played it's 1st season in top flight for some time and is normally not a top club as it showed last season and so many seasons before. That 1st season back was just like Wigan before them, having a good year when coming back to the PL then getting back to where they belong.

MSI wanted the players at WH cause it worked best for their business plan since they might get involved in the club financially.
Hey, Masch played in the world cup and was great. He had already done great at River Plate and Corintians and was a full fledged international.
West Ham wouldn't be close on the radar if not for MSI.
Inter, Roma, Milan, top clubs in Spain etc would surely be better for him and much more interesting options.
And tevez is an even worse example.
He prefering to go to WH?
Allow myself to laugh. Won player of the year in Brazil and is one of the most promising players to come from SA in the past few years. Chelski were sniffing about him a few years back and if not for MSI he would had been at a European top club already.

3) Once again I disagree it was mutual to move to England.
Kia gave his "advice and convinced the players WH was their destination. Both trust his judgement and are owned by MSI so they went. Where does it say it was mutual??

4) I'm not suggesting Masch has no say about his future.
He has little say about it. Once again, he unlike our other players in the squad are not a Liverpool player and after 12 month Liverpool would have no say at all. He is all MSI property then as are his registration rights.
He mayb have adopted to the team rafa wants and got and understanding with teammates but MSI wants to maximise profits!
They are in it for one thing only, one thing. And that is not to please Masch or Liverpool, so even if Liverpool bid less than what MSI can get elsewhere we will get him on a discount.
Not going to happen. Sure, masch can influence, but MSI will not allow him to leave for Liverpool for £20m if another club bids alot more. It's not like Masch can threaten to sit out his contract.

5) I have not anywhere said that we will not have enough money to afford Masch!
But we might offer less cause we think £20m is more than enough for him and other might think otherwise.
And I do not think we will get some kind of charity from MSI.
Can't believe you think they would accept less than they can get elsewhere.
I am telling the negative side(as you call it) cause noone did before I wrote about it. Everyone just ignores the fact that it's a probable scenario. There are some scenarioes where we will get him cause of a clause or that we have 1st option etc but there are other ways this could go and there is nothing that say he will be a Liverpool player end of.
You must sometimes step back and analyze the situation objectivly and not just look at it from one perspective.
Which almost everyone did in this thread.
We just have to accept that in some scenarioes masch will not stay and not just keep ignoring that fact.

6) What tevez said was that since he treated him as a friend he valued his advice and trusted him 100%.
For me that sure should count for something.

It's not just the fact that he sees him as a friend but also that Tevez values his advice and trusts him 100%.[U]

7) The fee itself was not important. It was an example just to show that if someone valued him higher and bid higher than we were willing to. Kia would do everything in his power as would MSI to pursuade the player to join their preferred club.

I sure hope we get him to stay, but I'm not like some who hold their hands over their ears and ignores the fact that there are some scenarioes in which we could loose the player.

And you did so well in the other thread, lad!

Hopeless.

by **maguskwt** » Sat Jul 14, 2007 4:56 am

this whole MSI ownership of tevez and masherano stinks... can't the FA or the PL come up with a rule that only registered clubs can own players? And I'm talking about both economic and registration rights...

well I don't know much about the business part of football... but it is always those kind of money-grabbing opportunistic greedy businessmen that come up with those fancy rule bending arrangements... :no

...

EDIT: and this is not only in football... those :censored:

greedy exploitative capitalist :censored:

should learn that life is not about making as much money as possible... :censored:

-ers get a honest :censored:

-ing life

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