Liverpool FC Forum

by **Bad Bob** » Fri Jul 13, 2007 4:05 am

s@int wrote:Rafa is the best manager since Dalglish pretty much goes without saying.

Not the way some people have been talking, mate. :no

Look, I get it: winning the league is the holy grail and until we do that, Rafa's achievements will always be scrutinized. But, surely I'm not the only one that feels we're on the right track and that we're getting closer? Sheesh, to read threads around here lately you'd think that Rafa couldn't tell his a.rse from his elbow and that we'd never accomplished a thing during the past three years. In our haste to re-gain our perch atop the league we've become a hyper-critical bunch of miserable sods, tut-tutting about every little mistake the manager's made since arriving. Well, I still have tremendous faith in the man--it pains me that so many others seem to have grown so disillusioned so quickly.

by **RedorDead** » Fri Jul 13, 2007 4:27 am

Bad Bob wrote:
Wilhelmsson wrote:By your definition Tim Henman was a successful Tennis player? There is making progress and then there is success and I cannot understand the notion of Rafa being a success in the league. Either we aren’t a club with a large stature anymore or fans views of success have changed. IMO we have made progress in the league, but this doesn’t equate to success. Success for me is silverware, nothing more and nothing less. Progress is not success, winning is success.

Rafa has made us into title contenders, since when might I ask? Last time I checked Liverpool were chugging away in 3rd place, twenty one points behind the league leaders, this is hardly contention is it? Even with the new signings there is still no real way of predicting whether or not Liverpool will be able to mount a serious challenge this up, coming season.

Okay, we're obviously working with different definitions of success. So, let me ask a different question:

Are you satisfied with Rafa's management so far?

On the whole I am quite satisfied and I truly feel that the progress we've made under him has put us in a position to genuinely challenge for the title.

Do others feel differently?

I have read some rubbish in my time on here, in fact I read some rubbish most days I come on here....but what I have just been reading is without doubt the most ridiculous thing I have ever read.
To say that Rafa is a disgrace and to suggest we are a club like Bolton who can go no further is just plain idiotic and the spoutings of someone who clearly has absolutely no idea about football....talk about glass half empty!!! You're more like glass empty and dropped to teh floor smashing into a million pieces!!
The question of this thread is: "Has Rafa been a success so far?" It is not "Has Rafa won us the league yet?"
Winning the league is what we ALL want more than anything, and while it is the priority for most of us it is only one measure of success. Each and every competition we enter is a measure of success, our league placing and points totals are measures of our success and in a more subjective way our quality of squad is a measure of success.
On this basis (and what other basis is there?) Rafa has been an unqualified success in his first three seasons.
A European Cup, FA Cup, European Super Cup & Charity shield...ALL successes. A narrow league cup defeat to the best team in the country, an second European Cup final, two third place finishes and our highest points total in years....How can anyone make a case for Rafa not being a success?
Add to all this the fact we now have a squad which in most people's opinion is finally strong enough to mount a real challenge and I again say Rafa has done us all proud and proven how successful he is.
I am flabergasted at some of the narrow minded opinions on here, we all want the league and winning it would be the ultimate success I admit but lets not belittle our phenomenal achievements so far under Rafa.

by **maguskwt** » Fri Jul 13, 2007 4:53 am

Bad Bob wrote:
s@int wrote:Rafa is the best manager since Dalglish pretty much goes without saying.

Not the way some people have been talking, mate.

Look, I get it: winning the league is the holy grail and until we do that, Rafa's achievements will always be scrutinized. But, surely I'm not the only one that feels we're on the right track and that we're getting closer? Sheesh, to read threads around here lately you'd think that Rafa couldn't tell his a.rse from his elbow and that we'd never accomplished a thing during the past three years. In our haste to re-gain our perch atop the league we've become a hyper-critical bunch of miserable sods, tut-tutting about every little mistake the manager's made since arriving. Well, I still have tremendous faith in the man--it pains me that so many others seem to have grown so disillusioned so quickly.

I won't criticize Houllier like some do on here. I think he did a pretty good job with the team. the hyppia-henchoz partnership, buying riise, hamann, mcallister, finnan, bringing on gerrard, developing carragher were all very inspirational IMO. Dudek was also a top class keeper that houllier bought with unbelievable agility. I remember thinking at last now we have a good keeper after James and the dutch keeper (forgot the name). Actually I still think that dudek is a better all-round keeper than reina, stronger in the air. Just that his form and confidence went downhill when Rafa decided to replace him with Reina. Just because of his poor form after the CL win doesn't mean that he was a :censored:

keeper. Rafa didn't really give him a chance because we had Reina. Like it or not Houllier did play a part in us winning the CL.

But and this is a big but... Houllier was tactically inferior to Benitez... he was very negative... he relied on Owen too much which IMO was a superstar striker even comparable to Henry in our treble winning year. Year after year it's the same tactic and the same formation without really getting anywhere. He did not know what to do when the going get's tough. And Houllier did not continue to progress after the 2nd place finish. His buys were very very bad and he does not have that tactical acumen to cover that. That's his downfall... relying on Owen too much and not having tactical acumen plus bad buys...

Benitez IMO is a much better coach than houllier... He has the ability to take LFC further than Houllier ever did...and IMO he already did that by winning the CL in the first year with Houllier's declining squad and the FA cup in the 2nd year... we almost won the CL again in the 3rd year... winning cups like this needs your fair share of luck and I must say we were unlucky to not win the CL for the second time... which shows alot about Benitez's ability... he has the ability to beat big clubs in europe with his tactical acumen fair and square without having as strong as squad as them. and this does not happen as one-off.

So yeah i think benitez is a successful coach and he can bring LFC to a higher success than houllier...

by **maguskwt** » Fri Jul 13, 2007 5:02 am

Ok i left out Benitez'es achilles heel... our premiership form. I must admit our league form wasn't good enough in the 1st year and 3rd year (2nd year wasn't too bad). This is partly because benitez wasn't familiar with the style of football in the league and when he bought players he was thinking more on a continental style... players like garcia and gonzalez are the kind of players that are quite useless in the premiership... but I believe rafa is starting to understand now... his purchases of kuyt, crouch, and now recent purchases all show that. Torres and babel are both physically strong and athletic and very direct which is what we need to beat the :censored:

out of ultra defensive mid table teams... Benyaoun is quite proven in the premiership... So yeah i think we will make a tremendous improvement this year...

by **lfc4life83** » Fri Jul 13, 2007 5:17 am

hopless in premier league and good in cups and he had brought to many spanish people to the club, we need to play english football to win the epl

by **babu** » Fri Jul 13, 2007 6:15 am

wow this thread reads like something off bluekipper. Define success .. blah blah.

We are moving forward people, the start of last season was frustrating because we blew it, and Rafa's has to take some of the blame, but we are still moving forward.

Anyone that thinks the squad has not improved in the 3 years Rafa's been in charge, is insane.

Anyone who thinks there is a better manager available at the monent to replace Rafa, is insane.

Would i commit suicide if Rafa left tomorrow? NO. If fact, if he did, i think we would still finish top 3. Because of the all the work that has been done so far. After Houllier, and when MO left, top 3 looked distant, CL trophy was undreamed of.

But please oh please Rafa, find out our strongest team and play it!!

by **babu** » Fri Jul 13, 2007 6:16 am

lfc4life83 wrote:hopless in premier league and good in cups and he had brought to many spanish people to the club, we need to play english football to win the epl

and by the way lfc4life83,
LICK MY HAIRY BALL SACK

by **66-1112520797** » Fri Jul 13, 2007 10:06 am

Rafa's not perfect, he's no genius but he is the best manager we've had since Dalglish. He's made us into proper title contenders once more and he's helped us win some pretty significant silverware over the past three years. Let's at least give credit where credit is due instead of establishing impossible expectations and then damning the man for failing to work miracles.

He's made us no more "proper title contenders" in my eyes than Houllier did. since you brought up the fact we had our highest league tally under Rafa, werent we not closer to the bottom end of the table a couple of seasons ago ? If your going to use stats like that to help your point, people will do the same from the opposite side of the fence.

I havent read or written in any of my posts where I'm "damning" the man and or expecting "miracles". But I would like to see us become genuine title contenders. But by your thoughts we already are, and IMHO thats just wrong.

I think Rafa is doing well, I think he is a great coach. But his seemingly obvious choice in decision making when rotating players, the timing of subs, the way we play even at times (negative and devoid of ideas) stand out like sore thumbs, and people like me

consider it costly during the course of the season.
Like I said earlier he is swinging towards a success IMO, but at the moment I'm happy with the work he's doing and I think we're possibly heading in the right direction under him, but that doesnt mean I'll leap to his defense if the slighgtest critisism of him pops up.

by **Wilhelmsson** » Fri Jul 13, 2007 10:32 am

Bad Bob wrote:Okay, we're obviously working with different definitions of success. So, let me ask a different question:

Are you satisfied with Rafa's management so far?

On the whole I am quite satisfied and I truly feel that the progress we've made under him has put us in a position to genuinely challenge for the title.

Do others feel differently?

Yes, I am very satisfied with Benitez’s reign, Liverpool is a major force in Europe once again and the team is making steady progress within the league. I’m not sure if the team are in contention of the league yet, as our new signings could take a while to click, but the fact we are able to sign some of the most sort after talent in Europe suggests than overtime Liverpool could well reign supreme.

I was not criticising Rafa’s credentials or his ability, I am of the opinion that Rafa has not been successful in the league as success equates to winning the league. 3rd place and twenty one points behind the league leaders is a successful season for the likes of Bolton, not Liverpool. Before you shoot me down in flames, I acknowledge the progress made under Rafa, I am content with it and satisfied with it, my opinion of success, differs to others.

Rafa will be a success in the Premiership, when his time comes, at the moment it isn’t his time.

by **Wilhelmsson** » Fri Jul 13, 2007 10:38 am

LFC2007 wrote:So a record points total in your second season is not evidence of progress in the league? Having the second best home record and the best defence at home is not progress? I think it is. You cannot judge the success of a manager in separation, you take into account all of the progress made. One relates to the other, especially when you have a lack of squad depth, had we not been in Europe we probably would have gained more points in the league due to a) rest and b) focus. The two are inextricably linked.

Please read what I have written because I haven’t got the slightest clue as to what you are talking about? When or where have I suggested that Liverpool hasn’t made progress under Rafa’s guidance? Success to me equates to medals, silverware and finishing 1st.

Anything below this is not good enough and isn’t success. Until Rafa wins the league, IMO he hasn’t been successful, progress leads to success, but they are two different components.

by **Kopite-Jud** » Fri Jul 13, 2007 12:19 pm

Without A Doubt Huge Success Hes Done All That Without Spenin a Vast Amount Of Money Like Chelsea And United . Now We Have Money To Spend Its The Prem Next
YNWA

by **LegBarnes** » Fri Jul 13, 2007 12:29 pm

Football is a very very hard sport to perfect to get a squad that can win 85% of games to win the leauge seems almost impossible dont it ?

Well raffa since comming to our club has had to deal with hardly no money a squad with only 2 world class players in it and at a time when chesk had a new owner with loads of money and buying the soul out of football tbh i think he has done very well .

I seen some thing some where dont ask me where but it said per pound spent on transfer to points won in leauge raffa was up 34% on chesk and 22% on the mancs.

so he has been out peforming them for what funds and time he has had.

so now has been able to go out and get the new faces he wants i am sure with out a doubt we we have a much better season but these things have to take time we all can't go and spend 200 mil and win the leauge in the first year.

Just Trust the gaffa "RAFFA"

:upside:

by **Bad Bob** » Fri Jul 13, 2007 12:37 pm

Bamaga man wrote:He's made us no more "proper title contenders" in my eyes than Houllier did.

If that's true, why do so many supporters seem to expect the title under Rafa when under Houllier by the end we couldn't dream of winning the title? Seriously, read the old threads, mate, if you want to see how bullish people were under Houllier.

Since you brought up the fact we had our highest league tally under Rafa, werent we not closer to the bottom end of the table a couple of seasons ago ? If your going to use stats like that to help your point, people will do the same from the opposite side of the fence.

Sure. The same year that we won the Champions League with a threadbare squad--a success that you keep wanting to put to one side but one that fundamentally affected our league form. Had Olympiakos finished us off, we would have focused on the league and had a much more productive run-in, "hypothetically speaking" of course.

I havent read or written in any of my posts where I'm "damning" the man and or expecting "miracles". But I would like to see us become genuine title contenders. But by your thoughts we already are, and IMHO thats just wrong.

You may not expect miracles but some around here sure do. We've had one poster call Rafa a disgrace in this thread--that's pretty damning. My comments were meant for all readers, even though I was quoting your post.

As for already being title contenders, again I would say that if we're not genuine title contenders why are many, many supporters so expectant of a title challenge? Why--and here I will include you specifically--are people so disappointed with third place? There are many teams in the league who would be ecstatic to finish third but we have higher ambitions at Liverpool. And--and this is the crucial point--not just because we have a glorious history that leaves us dissatisfied with anything less than excellence, but also because we have put together a team that gives us our best chance at winning the league in years. IMHO, we are genuine contenders.

I think Rafa is doing well, I think he is a great coach. But his seemingly obvious choice in decision making when rotating players, the timing of subs, the way we play even at times (negative and devoid of ideas) stand out like sore thumbs, and people like me consider it costly during the course of the season. Like I said earlier he is swinging towards a success IMO, but at the moment I'm happy with the work he's doing and I think we're possibly heading in the right direction under him, but that doesnt mean I'll leap to his defense if the slighgtest critisism of him pops up.

I would agree that there's plenty of room for improvement. I never said he was perfect or beyond criticism. But there's fair comment--which, to be fair, you usually supply--and then there's outrageous claims (we're no better than Bolton, Rafa's a disgrace in the league) which need to be challenged. I wouldn't exactly call that leaping to his defence over "slight criticism."

by **LegBarnes** » Fri Jul 13, 2007 1:08 pm

Lliverpool Fc do have agreat history but we cant exspect to win now just because of what we have done in the past.

Its not fair to the players we have now its up to them and them alone to perform at the right times to win things.

I for one does not think it fair to keep compairing our team to the past and to add pressure to the current set of players where it isnt needed god they got enuff to worrie about with out the history of the club brought up all the time to remind them of what they are not doing.

I started to surport liverpool when i was 10 in 1990 and for one i am thankful of this i didnt see liverpool win hardly nothing up to 5 years ago when we did that awsome tripple.

Its been hard being a liverpool fan but i still am cos i seen 90% of liverpool players playing there hearts out for a club i still rate as the best not for what they have won but for what they give back to the game.

I also see great fans i can sit down in a pub next to a pool fan any where in england and start ot talk to them as if i have known them all my life.

Of course i cant say its any dif to others clubs since i have only ever surported one club.

Just keep the past as memories because today we start agian i hope this year will start a new era in liverpools leauge winning history.

:buttrock

by **god_bless_john_houlding** » Fri Jul 13, 2007 6:13 pm

I didn't compare us in quality with Bolton, just the level of were we at is the same as Bolton. They are as high as they can go, and we are as high as we can possibly go.

United last year may not of had one man who scored 25-30 goals but they had 4/5 players who made double figures in the league, we had Kuyt.

Rafa did well to get the best out of some of the players Houiller couldn't, I can't argue with that but to say the European Cup success was just about Rafa reshuffling them is billhooks.

Torres has proven in Spain he isn't a man who will score 25-30 goals, so your view about is he our man, he quite clearly isn't that man.

And still I stand by my belief that Rafa isn't a genius as many of you seem to presume.

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