LFC2007 wrote:god_bless_john_houlding wrote:Bad Bob wrote:Kewell2Dominate wrote:I think the prem is obviously what we really want and he just hasn't lived up to that expectation.
But was this even a realistic expectation to have before Rafa took over? It's all well and good to hoist him by his own petard but, believe me, we wouldn't even be talking about winning the league at this point without the work Rafa's done to get us back into contention.
I think we would be talking about winning the league whoever was in charge because lets face it Liverpool is a club who should be a challenging for major honours both domestically and on the european stage. We spoke about winning the league under Souness, Evans, Houiller and now Rafa, because we know we should be fighting for the honours. For christ sake we spoke about winning the old 1st divison league title in 1960 when we weren't even in the top flight.
As for Rafa getting us back into contention 21 points isn't contention, it's an extra 7 wins we required. To acheive a top four finish with a club of size, fan base and money isn't diffucult, I'm pretty sure and tom, d!ick or harry could achieve that, it is only really top managers who can take you that step further and Rafa hasn't (yet) but he has also given us a finish of 5th, not out worst in the Prem though, that was in 98/99 where we finished 9th. So I can't class Rafa as a genius or as a man who has gotten us back into contention because we aren't. We have always been predicted to challenge so it's nothing to do with Rafa, it's the size of the club.
If you actually put your arguments in context they might make more sense, as it happens they lack any context and have no perspective whatsoever.
For example, you cite the 21 point difference, well I would say this. Whether it is a 21 point difference or a 9 point difference is irrelevant. We were not in contention in the latter stages of last season we were focussed on the UCL. That 21 point difference could quite easily have been a 10 point difference had we won some of the inconsequential matches at the back end of last season e.g. Man city, Portsmouth, Fulham, Charlton.
Another example, you say money is not an issue. Have you not read the thread "Rafa's spending"? I would suggest that the majority of your arguments will be comprehensively answered in that thread.
You say achieving a top four finish is easy to achieve, why did Houllier miss out twice? Rafa so far has achieved UCL football every single season, Houllier could not even do that.
The finish of fifth within in the context of a vastly depleted squad and no real striker is more than understandable. Injuries were rife, it was his first season and we focussed much of our effort on the UCL in the latter stages. I think winning the european cup after 21 years without it in your first season in a new country is quite impressive.
You insinuate that Rafa is not a top manager, well that says it all for me.
OK so euro 2004 top goalscorer and the top goalscroer in France for two years aren't real strikers, fair enough
Depleted squad which included vast amounts of internationals from all over europe.
If money was an issue we wouldn't of forked out 10 mill on Alonso, 7 on Reina 6/7 Garcia, 6 Morientes, 5/6 Sissoko, 20 odd Torres, 7 Crouch, 6 Bellamy, 9/10 Kuyt, 13 Babel, 4 Yossi (probably) 6 Pennant and 5 on Agger. Overall 100 million in 3 and a bit years. Average of 25mill+, not too many problems there concerning money as far as I can see. And that's not counting the money we recieve for the selling of players and our television rights, sponsorship deals and success in cup competitions which all go towards transfer fees. Money has never been an issue with Liverpool. Just because we haven't spent 25+ on a single player doesn't mean we don't spend big year in year out. Also we have never spent huge amounts on single players as Kenny Dalglish was bought for £440000 when around the same time Trevor Francis had just been the first million pound transfer, you decide which one was the better deal.
If you read my post pal, you would of seen I never said "Rafa wasn't a top manager." My words were "I can't call him a genius" and there's a difference between top manager and genius. 1 of those differences is being able to sustain success both domestically and on the european front. Another difference is being able to build a side which can challenge for the biggest honours which Rafa has yet to do, the 2005 European Cup was a side in which he inherited off Houiller with 1 or 2 changes. Last year's European Cup is Rafa's side and if they can sustain those sort of performances then Rafa would of built his 1st side.
Well correct me if I'm wrong but United and Chelsea were fighting for the European Cup final and the FA Cup yet both still seemed to acheive results in the league as well. The squad we had last season could easily of coped with the sides you listed. A sunday league side could of coped with the sides you listed. So I don't buy sides can't compete on all fronts, didn't Barcelona win the European Cup and the Spanish League 2 years ago? And as for these super-fit human beings need rests every other week. Back in the 70s and 80s our players would play 60+ games on pitches that were mud baths and they would be getting kicked left right and centre by the likes of Chopper Harris, Billy Bonds and Billy Bremner and they never needed rests. If they could do it when the fitness levels weren't nearly as high as they are now, then players these days can easily do it.
You say we talk about a title challenge every year but--hand on heart--how many of us believed it was likely until Rafa guided the club to 82 points and an FA Cup the season before last? I say again, take some team and read through some of the old threads on this board. Read the negativity, the despair, the frustration in virtually every thread during the tail end of the Houllier era and then come back and tell me that Rafa hasn't taken this club to another level. If that's not success, I don't know what is.
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