Liverpool FC Forum

by **Bad Bob** » Wed Jul 11, 2007 6:09 pm

Kewell2Dominate wrote:I think the prem is obviously what we really want and he just hasn't lived up to that expectation.

But was this even a realistic expectation to have before Rafa took over? It's all well and good to hoist him by his own petard but, believe me, we wouldn't even be talking about winning the league at this point without the work Rafa's done to get us back into contention.

by **Kewell2Dominate** » Wed Jul 11, 2007 6:23 pm

As long as i have known liverpool, no matter what team or what manager we have i have always thought we could win the league. You always know deep down that we may not but honestly we are the most successful team of all time and I always think we can win the league. We are liverpool and 17 years later is not good enough!

by **Bad Bob** » Wed Jul 11, 2007 6:51 pm

Kewell2Dominate wrote:As long as i have known liverpool, no matter what team or what manager we have i have always thought we could win the league. You always know deep down that we may not but honestly we are the most successful team of all time and I always think we can win the league. We are liverpool and 17 years later is not good enough!

I get that but I would suggest there's a significant difference between thinking "we could win the league this year" and "I expect us to challenge for the league this year." While the former statement is made by optimistic Liverpool supporters the world over every summer, the latter statement has only cropped up consistently in the last two seasons, under Rafa. If you don't believe me, have a look back through some of the ancient, Houllier-era threads on this board and see what the general level of expectations were like in summers past. I'm sure my point will be fully borne out. :nod

------EDIT--------

In fact, I've just had a look back and I think these threads illustrate exactly what I'm talking about:

August 2003

March 2004

May 2004

by **Rush Job** » Wed Jul 11, 2007 8:45 pm

When it comes to one off game or CL tie i always think we have an advantage cus we have the best manager, Chelsea, Barca, line them up Rafa will knock em down. The prem imo is different its more down to the players you have than the tactics, one world class player can bag you 15-2Op alone. Rafa is only just now getting the kind of money needed to bring in the kind of player which will help us compete. But keep in mind utd, chelsea and :censored:

have had a big head start.

by **Wilhelmsson** » Wed Jul 11, 2007 10:05 pm

I have mixed feelings when it comes to Rafa Benitez. There is little doubt that he is a talented manager, but he is not without his flaws.

Rafa is sublime when it comes to Europe, he can tactically outwit a fellow counter-part during the pre-match press conference and on the pitch. He is a man of few words, but these few words hit a chord with the players and they respond to his words in Europe.

In the Premiership it’s a different story with Rafa, some of this is out of his control after all Chelsea and Utd are two of the largest transfer spenders in the European circle of football. This would leave even the most gifted of managers in football with an up-hill struggle.

Rafa’s downfalls are A) He signed two many average/bolster players to his team; instead of using his miserly transfer budget more wisely (I’ve had a previous discussion on this particular issue). B) The style of play.

I was frustrated to see Rafa sign squad players such as Zenden, Pellegrino and Josemi who weren’t ever going to add depth to our squad/team/play, when in actual fact he should have and could have promoted some reserve team players into the first team set up. After all a player can only improve playing at the top level and these players could have compiled and completed an adequate role in the team for less wages than more senior personnel such as Zenden and Josemi.

The style of play is the second problem IMO, at times it is too slow, too patient and lacks ideas and creativity in the final third. This is not entirely Rafa’s fault, as I have said a miserly budget hasn’t helped matters. This doesn’t account for the lacklustre attacking style introduced and the negativity on show against team who Liverpool should be taking the fight too.

Rafa has been far too defensive for my liking since his arrival. After having watched an organised and miserly defence matched by an equally competent attacking force at Valencia tear teams apart (Liverpool included), I naturally and naively thought Liverpool would play in a similar way and Rafa’s tactics couldn’t be any more contrasting to those he deployed during his time with Valencia. This is ashame because I would love to see be able to watch well balanced football with an organised and miserly defence, matched by equally competent and breath taking attacking force.

Has Rafa been a success? In Europe yes, he has, in the Premiership he most certainly has not, I don’t expect this to change for quite sometime, but as long as we continue to make progress, then I am satisfied and happy to see him as Liverpool Manager.

by **paisleyred** » Wed Jul 11, 2007 10:10 pm

Has Rafa been a success?
Does a bear sh!t in the woods?

by **The Manhattan Project** » Wed Jul 11, 2007 10:38 pm

Has Rafa been a success?
Does a bear sh!t in the woods?

Polar bears don't

They probably sh!t on ice.

Which has got to be somewhat uncomfortable.

by **paisleyred** » Wed Jul 11, 2007 11:41 pm

could be quite soothing if they suffered from heamm.......haemor..........hemaroid..........piles.

by **god_bless_john_houlding** » Thu Jul 12, 2007 12:19 am

Lando_Griffin wrote:A massive success.

Look at what we WERE, then look at what we ARE.

While we can improve further, to say he's not been a success when there's only one trophy he has failed to land in 3 years (3 f*cking years, ffs - not 30), is a bit shortsighted.

The man is a genius, and with the time and the resources, I am sure he will deliver what everyone craves.

(But even then, certain people will still say he isn't a success, etc.)

We were 5th under Houiller in his final year, we ended up 5th under Rafa, not a massive improvement in my eyes. Houiller got us 7 points behind the champions in 2001/02, the closest Rafa has gotten us is 21 points, so we have made a move in a certain direction, possibly not the right one.

Don't get me wrong I think Rafa has done superb with us, certainly european wise, but let's face it he hasn't brought us on leaps and bounds the way many think. His signings have a lot to be desired for, to every 1 world class player Rafa has brought in 3/4 bad/below average players.

Rafa's 3 world stars he's brought in Reina-Alonso-Agger
The twelve bad/below average players he has brought in at the same time Pelligrino-Morientes-Nunez-Josemi-Aurellio-Zenden-Paletta-Gonzalez-Bellamy-Kromkamp-Padell
i-Arbeloa

Not a great ratio for stars to poor players. Many of Rafa's signings have been average to decent prem players but not world stars (mascherano will become a world star I must add). People constantly blamed Houiller for bad buys but nobody seems to complain about Rafa's.

Rafa is also still living off the success in the European Cup in 2005 because had we lost that Rafa wouldn't be the Liverpool manager now because 3 years without looking close to challenging for the Prem isn't good enough for a club of our size.

Another point I'd like to make while talking about his success is this title of masterful tactitian. In both finals against Milan he got the tactic's ar.se above t!t. If finnan hadn't got injured at half-time in Istanbul Didi Hamann would never of came on. And in Athens it was pretty obvious Crouch had to start from the front.

So overall I don't think Rafa is a genius becuase genius' don't make 12 bad singings within 5 years and genius' can perform both domestically and european.

by **LFC2007** » Thu Jul 12, 2007 12:23 am

god_bless_john_houlding wrote:
Lando_Griffin wrote:A massive success.

Look at what we WERE, then look at what we ARE.

While we can improve further, to say he's not been a success when there's only one trophy he has failed to land in 3 years (3 f*cking years, ffs - not 30), is a bit shortsighted.

The man is a genius, and with the time and the resources, I am sure he will deliver what everyone craves.

(But even then, certain people will still say he isn't a success, etc.)

We were 5th under Houiller in his final year, we ended up 5th under Rafa, not a massive improvement in my eyes. Houiller got us 7 points behind the champions in 2001/02, the closest Rafa has gotten us is 21 points, so we have made a move in a certain direction, possibly not the right one.

Don't get me wrong I think Rafa has done superb with us, certainly european wise, but let's face it he hasn't brought us on leaps and bounds the way many think. His signings have a lot to be desired for, to every 1 world class player Rafa has brought in 3/4 bad/below average players.

Rafa's 3 world stars he's brought in Reina-Alonso-Agger
The twelve bad/below average players he has brought in at the same time Pelligrino-Morientes-Nunez-Josemi-Aurellio-Zenden-Paletta-Gonzalez-Bellamy-Kromkamp-Padell

i-Arbeloa

Not a great ratio for stars to poor players. Many of Rafa's signings have been average to decent prem players but not world stars (mascherano will become a world star I must add). People constantly blamed Houiller for bad buys but nobody seems to complain about Rafa's.

Rafa is also still living off the success in the European Cup in 2005 because had we lost that Rafa wouldn't be the Liverpool manager now because 3 years without looking close to challenging for the Prem isn't good enough for a club of our size.

Another point I'd like to make while talking about his success is this title of masterful tactitian. In both finals against Milan he got the tactic's ar.se above t!t. If finnan hadn't got injured at half-time in Istanbul Didi Hamann would never of came on. And in Athens it was pretty obvious Crouch had to start from the front.

So overall I don't think Rafa is a genius becuase genius' don't make 12 bad singings within 5 years and genius' can perform both domestically and european.

I'd love to go to town on this post, and I could, but it's been repeated over and over and over again in previous threads. I would just say this: Houllier vs Rafa doesn't compare, Rafa is on another level.

by **god_bless_john_houlding** » Thu Jul 12, 2007 12:25 am

grayghost wrote:Come on the guy has been here 3 years unless yo spend 150 mil in that time on all the best players in the land then you don't have a shout. football has changed so much you cant just go arond the corner and find a jony barnes type player like you could years ago no you have to pay big bucks for that talent and we have not been able to for years lets give him a chance while he can build a team with some real quality and not players with talent but who have failed when they had there chance at outher clubs.

i hate this argument we don't spend big, we could of spent big if we hadn't spent largeish amounts on waste of space players.

Well we found Gerrard in our youth side, so why can't we find the next batch of quality

Arsenal find all these quality youngsters so we can easily find the next john barnes.

by **Kharhaz** » Thu Jul 12, 2007 1:27 am

Rafa took over Liverpool the same season as maureen took over chelsea. And out of all the managers maureen has got one over on, Rafas still the one that has got away ! so yes he has been a success !

by **god_bless_john_houlding** » Thu Jul 12, 2007 1:31 am

Bad Bob wrote:
Kewell2Dominate wrote:I think the prem is obviously what we really want and he just hasn't lived up to that expectation.

But was this even a realistic expectation to have before Rafa took over? It's all well and good to hoist him by his own petard but, believe me, we wouldn't even be talking about winning the league at this point without the work Rafa's done to get us back into contention.

I think we would be talking about winning the league whoever was in charge because lets face it Liverpool is a club who should be a challenging for major honours both domestically and on the european stage. We spoke about winning the league under Souness, Evans, Houiller and now Rafa, because we know we should be fighting for the honours. For christ sake we spoke about winning the old 1st divison league title in 1960 when we weren't even in the top flight

.

As for Rafa getting us back into contention 21 points isn't contention, it's an extra 7 wins we required. To acheive a top four finish with a club of size, fan base and money isn't diffucult, I'm pretty sure and tom, d!ick or harry could achieve that, it is only really top managers who can take you that step further and Rafa hasn't (yet) but he has also given us a finish of 5th, not out worst in the Prem though, that was in 98/99 where we finished 9th. So I can't class Rafa as a genius or as a man who has gotten us back into contention because we aren't. We have always been predicted to challenge so it's nothing to do with Rafa, it's the size of the club.

by **LFC2007** » Thu Jul 12, 2007 1:57 am

god_bless_john_houlding wrote:
Bad Bob wrote:
Kewell2Dominate wrote:I think the prem is obviously what we really want and he just hasn't lived up to that expectation.

But was this even a realistic expectation to have before Rafa took over? It's all well and good to hoist him by his own petard but, believe me, we wouldn't even be talking about winning the league at this point without the work Rafa's done to get us back into contention.

I think we would be talking about winning the league whoever was in charge because lets face it Liverpool is a club who should be a challenging for major honours both domestically and on the european stage. We spoke about winning the league under Souness, Evans, Houiller and now Rafa, because we know we should be fighting for the honours. For christ sake we spoke about winning the old 1st divison league title in 1960 when we weren't even in the top flight .

As for Rafa getting us back into contention 21 points isn't contention, it's an extra 7 wins we required. To acheive a top four finish with a club of size, fan base and money isn't diffucult, I'm pretty sure and tom, d!ick or harry could achieve that, it is only really top managers who can take you that step further and Rafa hasn't (yet) but he has also given us a finish of 5th, not out worst in the Prem though, that was in 98/99 where we finished 9th. So I can't class Rafa as a genius or as a man who has gotten us back into contention because we aren't. We have always been predicted to challenge so it's nothing to do with Rafa, it's the size of the club.

If you actually put your arguments in context they might make more sense, as it happens they lack any context and have no perspective whatsoever.

For example, you cite the 21 point difference, well I would say this. Whether it is a 21 point difference or a 9 point difference is irrelevant. We were not in contention in the latter stages of last season we were focussed on the UCL. That 21 point difference could quite easily have been a 10 point difference had we won some of the inconsequential matches at the back end of last season e.g. Man city, Portsmouth, Fulham, Charlton.

Another example, you say money is not an issue. Have you not read the thread "Rafa's spending"? I would suggest that the majority of your arguments will be comprehensively answered in that thread.

You say achieving a top four finish is easy to achieve, why did Houllier miss out twice? Rafa so far has achieved UCL football every single season, Houllier could not even do that.

The finish of fifth within in the context of a vastly depleted squad and no real striker is more than understandable. Injuries were rife, it was his first season and we focussed much of our effort on the UCL in the latter stages. I think winning the european cup after 21 years without it in your first season in a new country is quite impressive.

You insinuate that Rafa is not a top manager, well that says it all for me. :no

by **Kharhaz** » Thu Jul 12, 2007 2:42 am

LFC2007 wrote:
god_bless_john_houlding wrote:
Bad Bob wrote:
Kewell2Dominate wrote:I think the prem is obviously what we really want and he just hasn't lived up to that expectation.

But was this even a realistic expectation to have before Rafa took over? It's all well and good to hoist him by his own petard but, believe me, we wouldn't even be talking about winning the league at this point without the work Rafa's done to get us back into contention.

I think we would be talking about winning the league whoever was in charge because lets face it Liverpool is a club who should be a challenging for major honours both domestically and on the european stage. We spoke about winning the league under Souness, Evans, Houiller and now Rafa, because we know we should be fighting for the honours. For christ sake we spoke about winning the old 1st divison league title in 1960 when we weren't even in the top flight .

As for Rafa getting us back into contention 21 points isn't contention, it's an extra 7 wins we required. To acheive a top four finish with a club of size, fan base and money isn't diffucult, I'm pretty sure and tom, d!ick or harry could achieve that, it is only really top managers who can take you that step further and Rafa hasn't (yet) but he has also given us a finish of 5th, not out worst in the Prem though, that was in 98/99 where we finished 9th. So I can't class Rafa as a genius or as a man who has gotten us back into contention because we aren't. We have always been predicted to challenge so it's nothing to do with Rafa, it's the size of the club.

If you actually put your arguments in context they might make more sense, as it happens they lack any context and have no perspective whatsoever.

For example, you cite the 21 point difference, well I would say this. Whether it is a 21 point difference or a 9 point difference is irrelevant. We were not in contention in the latter stages of last season we were focussed on the UCL. That 21 point difference could quite easily have been a 10 point difference had we won some of the inconsequential matches at the back end of last season e.g. Man city, Portsmouth, Fulham, Charlton.

Another example, you say money is not an issue. Have you not read the thread "Rafa's spending"? I would suggest that the majority of your arguments will be comprehensively answered in that thread.

You say achieving a top four finish is easy to achieve, why did Houllier miss out twice? Rafa so far has achieved UCL football every single season, Houllier could not even do that.

The finish of fifth within in the context of a vastly depleted squad and no real striker is more than understandable. Injuries were rife, it was his first season and we focussed much of our effort on the UCL in the latter stages. I think winning the european cup after 21 years without it in your first season in a new country is quite impressive.

You insinuate that Rafa is not a top manager, well that says it all for me.

I never in my wildest dreams believe I would see Liverpool lift the European Cup again but we did, thanks to Rafa.

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