Liverpool FC Forum

Bad Bob wrote:On the contrary I think it shows extraordinary backbone.  Look, the easiest thing in the world for him to do would be to go and play in La Liga.  He's rated, he'd land himself at a decent club over there and he'd be well paid--all without the aggro he'd get here for switching sides.  So, if he does come over to us he's taking a lot of extra weight on his shoulders which is a brave decision, IMO.

I think all of this talk about him being a mercenary vs. him showing the Mancs two fingers comes down to the supporters projecting their concerns or hops and has little to do with Heinze himself.  As Liverpool supporters we just have a hard time contemplating a player crossing the great divide.  We can't conceive of it as a normal transfer decision--it must be a mark of his character: either he's got no loyalty or he hates the Mancs deep down (which some fans would relish).  I doubt any of this applies to the player.  He's an Argentinian who's been there 3 years, who's unsatisfied with his contract and playing time at his current club and who is, therefore, exploring other offers.  He's not Gary bloody Neville or Rio feckin Ferdinand. 

So, if we make him the best offer and he decides to take it, it doesn't mean he's a soulless mercenary.  Nor does it mean he's going to run the length of the pitch and celebrate in front of the Annie Road end, Neville style, when we beat them at Anfield next season.  I think, in fact, it would say quite a bit about our drawing power as a club to have a player consider moving over to us from the English Champions.

Wilhelmsson wrote:

Bad Bob wrote:On the contrary I think it shows extraordinary backbone.  Look, the easiest thing in the world for him to do would be to go and play in La Liga.  He's rated, he'd land himself at a decent club over there and he'd be well paid--all without the aggro he'd get here for switching sides.  So, if he does come over to us he's taking a lot of extra weight on his shoulders which is a brave decision, IMO.

I think all of this talk about him being a mercenary vs. him showing the Mancs two fingers comes down to the supporters projecting their concerns or hops and has little to do with Heinze himself.  As Liverpool supporters we just have a hard time contemplating a player crossing the great divide.  We can't conceive of it as a normal transfer decision--it must be a mark of his character: either he's got no loyalty or he hates the Mancs deep down (which some fans would relish).  I doubt any of this applies to the player.  He's an Argentinian who's been there 3 years, who's unsatisfied with his contract and playing time at his current club and who is, therefore, exploring other offers.  He's not Gary bloody Neville or Rio feckin Ferdinand. 

So, if we make him the best offer and he decides to take it, it doesn't mean he's a soulless mercenary.  Nor does it mean he's going to run the length of the pitch and celebrate in front of the Annie Road end, Neville style, when we beat them at Anfield next season.  I think, in fact, it would say quite a bit about our drawing power as a club to have a player consider moving over to us from the English Champions.

I accept your opinion and it makes sense, but I cannot share it.  Henize would indeed be carry extra baggage, for starters he would have to deal with Liverpool fans who cannot stand him and MU fans who cannot stand him. This is no reflection on Gabriel as you say, but you have to ask yourself, why wouldn’t he opt for a quiet life?  He isn’t a stupid man, so why would he come to Liverpool knowing the immense discontent between both clubs?  It would be a brave decision; it would also be a stupid decision.

I’ve not called him a mercenary, as I don’t believe Heinze is a mercenary and I don’t believe for a moment that Heinze would have anything negative to say about MU fans, the banter will come from both sets of fans. You are right, he’s not Rio or Gary, he is Gabriel a MU player, no matter how hard you try and convince me to accept the signing, I refuse to accept any different. When he signed for MU that was it, he could no longer become a Liverpool player.

I’m repeating myself here, but I haven’t said he is a mercenary, I’ve not said he would belittle the MU fans that have supported him for three/four seasons. That said I do not want a MU player playing for Liverpool and I don’t want Liverpool to conduct in business with MU.

Then there is the fact his conduct on the pitch is rather unsavoury, I like to see sportsmanship and that is not Heinze, he’ll sulk, kick up a fuss and even throw punches at an opponent after a QF loss, so no thanks, I don’t want him and if he signs, I will not support him.

Bad Bob wrote:

Wilhelmsson wrote:It’s alright suggesting it would be funny for a MU player to stick his two fingers up at his current club in favour of his rivals, however it shows the player hasn’t got a backbone.

On the contrary I think it shows extraordinary backbone.  Look, the easiest thing in the world for him to do would be to go and play in La Liga.  He's rated, he'd land himself at a decent club over there and he'd be well paid--all without the aggro he'd get here for switching sides.  So, if he does come over to us he's taking a lot of extra weight on his shoulders which is a brave decision, IMO.

I think all of this talk about him being a mercenary vs. him showing the Mancs two fingers comes down to the supporters projecting their concerns or hops and has little to do with Heinze himself.  As Liverpool supporters we just have a hard time contemplating a player crossing the great divide.  We can't conceive of it as a normal transfer decision--it must be a mark of his character: either he's got no loyalty or he hates the Mancs deep down (which some fans would relish).  I doubt any of this applies to the player.  He's an Argentinian who's been there 3 years, who's unsatisfied with his contract and playing time at his current club and who is, therefore, exploring other offers.  He's not Gary bloody Neville or Rio feckin Ferdinand. 

So, if we make him the best offer and he decides to take it, it doesn't mean he's a soulless mercenary.  Nor does it mean he's going to run the length of the pitch and celebrate in front of the Annie Road end, Neville style, when we beat them at Anfield next season.  I think, in fact, it would say quite a bit about our drawing power as a club to have a player consider moving over to us from the English Champions.

john craig wrote:This Heinze debate has gone on long enough.  I honestly can't believe some of our fans would be happy for us to buy a player from Ferguson, the man who came to English football to 'knock LFC off their perch'.  I hate Fergie, their club and everything about them and it made me sick to see them lift the league title again this year.  If this is what football has come to, when a player thinks it's ok to directly transfer from them to us (or vice versa for that matter), then something's very wrong.  The fact a lot of our fans think this is ok I think is even worse.

I could understand it, just maybe, if we were talking about the possibility of getting someone of Rooney or Ronaldo's quality, not Gabriel Heinze FFS.  He's not the same solid defender he was 2 years ago, his injury has badly affected him and Fergie knows it.  Red nosed tw@t that he is, it usually proves to be the right decision when he gets rid of a player.  Those of you saying Heinze is a far better bet than Riise at left back, watch United's semi against Milan again.  Christ, he would have made Traore look solid that night, and he's had plenty of games like that this season.  He's on the slide.

I personally think we're ok at left back.  Riise's solid enough and Aurelio and Arbeloa can do a decent job there too.

Ade wrote:

john craig wrote:This Heinze debate has gone on long enough.  I honestly can't believe some of our fans would be happy for us to buy a player from Ferguson, the man who came to English football to 'knock LFC off their perch'.  I hate Fergie, their club and everything about them and it made me sick to see them lift the league title again this year.  If this is what football has come to, when a player thinks it's ok to directly transfer from them to us (or vice versa for that matter), then something's very wrong.  The fact a lot of our fans think this is ok I think is even worse.

I could understand it, just maybe, if we were talking about the possibility of getting someone of Rooney or Ronaldo's quality, not Gabriel Heinze FFS.  He's not the same solid defender he was 2 years ago, his injury has badly affected him and Fergie knows it.  Red nosed tw@t that he is, it usually proves to be the right decision when he gets rid of a player.  Those of you saying Heinze is a far better bet than Riise at left back, watch United's semi against Milan again.  Christ, he would have made Traore look solid that night, and he's had plenty of games like that this season.  He's on the slide.

I personally think we're ok at left back.  Riise's solid enough and Aurelio and Arbeloa can do a decent job there too.

John, I agree with most of your posts, but we're not letting a top player go to the Mancs here. And ethically, signing Mascherano from a shark outfit like MSI is far more dodgy.

Much as we all hate Utd, the fact is that if Rafa wants him and Fergie wants rid of him, it's a deal that suits BOTH clubs. If Heinze comes and he's shot, injury-riven and not the player he was, that's our loss, but you could hardly put it down to some Manc conspiracy. No one's hiding the fact he's had a bad injury, so it's caveat emptor mate - buyer beware.

And yeah, he was poor against Milan, but Kaka and co would've made most fullbacks look foolish on that form. I think Fergie wants rid more cos of Evra's dynamic form than cos Heinze's finished. Heinze is a big player with the appetite and attitude to go with it - and playing 2nd fiddle could leave him frustrated and disruptive at OT.

I reckon Rafa's right on this one. And JAR is on borrowed time.

john craig wrote:

Ade wrote:

john craig wrote:This Heinze debate has gone on long enough.  I honestly can't believe some of our fans would be happy for us to buy a player from Ferguson, the man who came to English football to 'knock LFC off their perch'.  I hate Fergie, their club and everything about them and it made me sick to see them lift the league title again this year.  If this is what football has come to, when a player thinks it's ok to directly transfer from them to us (or vice versa for that matter), then something's very wrong.  The fact a lot of our fans think this is ok I think is even worse.

I could understand it, just maybe, if we were talking about the possibility of getting someone of Rooney or Ronaldo's quality, not Gabriel Heinze FFS.  He's not the same solid defender he was 2 years ago, his injury has badly affected him and Fergie knows it.  Red nosed tw@t that he is, it usually proves to be the right decision when he gets rid of a player.  Those of you saying Heinze is a far better bet than Riise at left back, watch United's semi against Milan again.  Christ, he would have made Traore look solid that night, and he's had plenty of games like that this season.  He's on the slide.

I personally think we're ok at left back.  Riise's solid enough and Aurelio and Arbeloa can do a decent job there too.

John, I agree with most of your posts, but we're not letting a top player go to the Mancs here. And ethically, signing Mascherano from a shark outfit like MSI is far more dodgy.

Much as we all hate Utd, the fact is that if Rafa wants him and Fergie wants rid of him, it's a deal that suits BOTH clubs. If Heinze comes and he's shot, injury-riven and not the player he was, that's our loss, but you could hardly put it down to some Manc conspiracy. No one's hiding the fact he's had a bad injury, so it's caveat emptor mate - buyer beware.

And yeah, he was poor against Milan, but Kaka and co would've made most fullbacks look foolish on that form. I think Fergie wants rid more cos of Evra's dynamic form than cos Heinze's finished. Heinze is a big player with the appetite and attitude to go with it - and playing 2nd fiddle could leave him frustrated and disruptive at OT.

I reckon Rafa's right on this one. And JAR is on borrowed time.

You make some reasonable points Ade.  I can't disagree with the Mascerano point, in fact I totally agree.

Perhaps I've gone a bit overboard in view of how much Heinze has deteriorated since his injury, and it probably was unfair to pick the Milan game as an example, because Kaka and Seedorf would've given any defender the runaround that night, but you can't seriously suggest that Heinze is as good now as when United signed him.  And it's not as if he's just back from injury, he's been back for a while now.  I think he's become more erratic, more keen to live up to his reputation and half someone, rather than defend properly.

Evra may suit United's more expansive game.  In fact there's no 'might' about it, he does.  But that's no reason to sell Heinze.  United compete on 4 fronts in a season and both would get a good amount of games.  Bottom line is that if Ferguson still rated Heinze, he wouldn't even contemplate selling him to us.  Heinze is not a free agent and United still control where he ends up should they sell.  Ferguson would not intentionally strengthen a rival and it's hardly as if they need the money.  I just find this whole rumour very difficult to believe mate.

Ade wrote:For me, it all comes down to our medical team getting it right.

Bad Bob wrote:

Ade wrote:For me, it all comes down to our medical team getting it right.

That's the long and the short of it, really.

You know, I'm still very far from convinced that there's that much to this story yet...despite the fact that the Echo are reporting it as fact as well.  If it does get to that stage, though, the medical will be crucial--there's no point filling the Mancs' coffers for damaged goods.  If he's fit, though, I think he'd bring a lot to our team.  I'd go so far as to think he might be a player that Ferguson will rue letting go.  It also bears remembering that he'd also provide cover at CB in addition to competing for the starting LB berth.

Ade wrote:Fair enough, you clearly think it's a problem, and if enough Reds feel  the same as you (at  Anfield) then it could well be. But i'd be surprised if they shared your animosity.

You ask why we  should sign Heinze if he's surplus to requirements at OT? Simple, he's much better than anyone we've got in that position. Aurelio is more of an attacking option, JAR too, but neither of them is as good as GH defensively. The mancs are selling him cos Evra is better going forward and it suits their style to play all-out attack. Rafa is a more defensively-minded coach, and will be happy to put the onus on our midfield and wingers to create.

Also, GH would be a shrewd  acquisition for European football.

The argument that 'he's a Man Utd player' only applies to the day he leaves the club. Once he leaves, he ain't a Manc, simple. As Bad Bob and I will both argue, he isn't a Neville, a Scholes, a Giggs or a Keane.

If his injury situation is clear then sign him. He would be a superb asset and i would put money on him giving us the commitment and quality he's given the Mancs. He's an Argie - they're serious footballers. A Manc he is not