Liverpool FC Forum

by **Stu.Murph** » Tue Jun 26, 2007 1:11 am

LFC2007 wrote:
Stu.Murph wrote:
LFC2007 wrote:
Stu.Murph wrote:The problem is, Rafa's not anything like that.

We'll see won't we.

We've already seen bellend. Name a player thats world class who Rafa has signed?

Talking out yer yet again.

Agger and Sissoko will never ever make world class players. Get over it.

Go feck yerself you arrogant cun,t.

Name one world class player that Houllier signed?

World class? You wouldn't call Carragher world class but you wouldn't replace him with any other defender in the world!

World Class? Schevchenko's considered "world class" - has he achieved more than Kuyt in England? I don't think so.

Rafa's signed some brilliant players who have done very well - we just need that extra quality to take us to the next level - to do that we need funds.

Houllier made some very good signings aswell, but he p!ssed money on jokes like Diao and Diouf.

If you're saying Morientes is as bad as Diouf - or was as big a gamble then it's not worth bothering with you.

The same with Diao, you'll probably come out with some sh!t that he's better than Sissoko - my are,se.

Agger - a brilliant signing, IMO he will develop into a top class defender, as good as Hyypia if not better in time.

You think he's average - your opinion - I know most can see him for what he is.

When have I ever mentioned Morientes?

And yes, I'm going to say Diao is better than Sissoko!

:laugh:

You then go on about Agger yet again. He's not even in the top ten in the country. Not good enough. Simple as.

In your opinion everyone can see can they?

:laugh:

Have to wonder where on earth they bought their glasses then.

To "suggest in anyway" that Kuyt's in Schevchenko's class is rediculous and shows exactly what you know/don't know about football.

As for Houllier's signings. I've already asked you to point out the ones that are as good that Rafa has made. Beyond Fowler, Alonso and Reina, I'm seriously struggling.

by **LFC2007** » Tue Jun 26, 2007 1:21 am

Stu.Murph wrote:
LFC2007 wrote:
Stu.Murph wrote:
LFC2007 wrote:
Stu.Murph wrote:The problem is, Rafa's not anything like that.

We'll see won't we.

We've already seen bellend. Name a player thats world class who Rafa has signed?

Talking out yer yet again.

Agger and Sissoko will never ever make world class players. Get over it.

Go feck yerself you arrogant cun,t.

Name one world class player that Houllier signed?

World class? You wouldn't call Carragher world class but you wouldn't replace him with any other defender in the world!

World Class? Schevchenko's considered "world class" - has he achieved more than Kuyt in England? I don't think so.

Rafa's signed some brilliant players who have done very well - we just need that extra quality to take us to the next level - to do that we need funds.

Houllier made some very good signings aswell, but he p!ssed money on jokes like Diao and Diouf.

If you're saying Morientes is as bad as Diouf - or was as big a gamble then it's not worth bothering with you.

The same with Diao, you'll probably come out with some sh!t that he's better than Sissoko - my are,se.

Agger - a brilliant signing, IMO he will develop into a top class defender, as good as Hyypia if not better in time.

You think he's average - your opinion - I know most can see him for what he is.

When have I ever mentioned Morientes?

And yes, I'm going to say Diao is better than Sissoko!

You then go on about Agger yet again. He's not even in the top ten in the country. Not good enough. Simple as.

In your opinion everyone can see can they?

Have to wonder where on earth they bought their glasses then.

To "suggest in anyway" that Kuyt's in Schevchenko's class is rediculous and shows exactly what you know/don't know about football.

As for Houllier's signings. I've already asked you to point out the ones that are as good that Rafa has made. Beyond Fowler, Alonso and Reina, I'm seriously struggling.

Agger not top ten, funny that, strange how he managed to help us reach the UCL with some great performances.

If you actually paid any notice to what people have been sayingm, the vast majority of people think Agger has the potential to be a top class defender, and for his age is one of the best defenders around, you're the one with the warped sunglasses on.

I never suggested Kuyt is Schevchenko's class, you really do have a problem in understanding that world class does NOT equal success in England - or anywhere for that matter.
I pointed out that Kuyt's performances and his overall contribution has been as good if not better than that of Schevchenko - yet you dismiss Kuyt as not good enough - or below par.

Quality signings by Rafa:

Reina
Agger
Alonso
Sissoko
Mascherano
Kuyt
Crouch
Garcia

I nearly forgot, I need to add some smiley faces because that makes me look cool like you.....

:laugh:

by **Stu.Murph** » Tue Jun 26, 2007 2:11 am

LFC2007 wrote:Agger not top ten, funny that, strange how he managed to help us reach the UCL with some great performances.

If you actually paid any notice to what people have been sayingm, the vast majority of people think Agger has the potential to be a top class defender, and for his age is one of the best defenders around, you're the one with the warped sunglasses on.

I never suggested Kuyt is Schevchenko's class, you really do have a problem in understanding that world class does NOT equal success in England - or anywhere for that matter.
I pointed out that Kuyt's performances and his overall contribution has been as good if not better than that of Schevchenko - yet you dismiss Kuyt as not good enough - or below par.

Quality signings by Rafa:

Reina
Agger
Alonso
Sissoko
Mascherano
Kuyt
Crouch
Garcia

I nearly forgot, I need to add some smiley faces because that makes me look cool like you.....

1. Agger helped us reach the Uefa Champions league final? And what? Traore helped us win the :censored:

thing, that doesn't make him a good player so I fail to see the logic in what you are saying.

2. I don't care for "everyones" opinion on whether Agger is "going to be" something he's not. They all said the same about Sissoko and finally, people are starting to realise it will never happen. Players don't become something they aren't. I couldn't give a flying :censored:

about age, or whatever anyone elses opinion is of the lad. He's not upto it. Rafa Benitez went on about Gonzalez for ages before he signed, we signed him, he was :censored:

. Agger is what he is and is what he will always be. A good player, nothing more, nothing less.

3. World class ability makes you a world class player. End of.

4. The transfers... Luis Garcia, Agger, Sissoko, Crouch and Kuyt quality? :laugh:

So much quality that along with Alonso, Reina, Carragher and Gerrard we're miles away from winning a league title. It must just be down to luck then I guess...

Yes, thats it, we were just unlucky, has nothing to do with a lack of ability... :laugh:

by **maguskwt** » Tue Jun 26, 2007 3:15 am

ermmm...I didn't know some ppl would be as naive as to judge the quality of a signing by his buy/sell value alone as shown by the comments on pires above... so you don't consider what the player had contributed to the club or how successful he was at the club do you?

Agger is what he is and is what he will always be. A good player, nothing more, nothing less

Players don't become something they aren't

wrong... so wrong... especially regarding defenders... they get better with experience... they learn how to read the game better... they learn how to read the opponent better... they know better what to do at what kind of situations... if agger is a good defender at the age of 22 it is VERY VERY possible he can become a great defender in a few years time...

if i have to believe what you say carragher hasn't improved :censored:

all did he? cause i remember early in his career he was slow and always get caught out of position and when the opponent broke through he would run back in vain... he's still slow now but he doesn't make those kinda mistakes anymore...

I remember agger had a very bad game against chelsea in the firs leg of the CL match... he didnt' know how to contain drogba and was a bit careless about the joe cole goal... but with experience he can avoid those mistakes

but besides that game in most of the time he was outstanding for us...

by **Emerald Red** » Tue Jun 26, 2007 3:41 am

Stu.Murph wrote:
ivor_the_injun wrote:I think he's got a good eye for a player. The only criticism I'd have is his ability to spot talent that can translate to the Prem. Gonzalez is the most glaring example of a player that looked the part in Spain, but who was just an empty shirt at LFC.

Other than that, I think his hit to miss ratio on the signings front isn't too bad. Morientes is the most high profile clunker, but I don't think anybody expected him to be quite that underwhelming.

In the current squad, Paletta is the real standout in terms of a guy that just doesn't even give glimpses of being good enough. Only cost £2m though, so it's limited damage. It's tended to be the Josemis, Pellegrinos and Zendens that haven't done the business, and Josemi was the only one of those three that cost us any money.

And I think you're absoloutely nuts.

He has a glaring lack of ability to judge how good certain players are and its that reason we're where we are in the league.

The signings of Sissoko, Agger, Kuyt and Crouch are the ones that wind me up the most. None of them are excellent players, yet all of them are in our first 11.

Its not even about how much money has been spent. The only real class he's brought in is Reina, Alonso and Fowler. Fowler's now left. He's signed to many decent players, he needs to go out an sign class players.

Are you stoned? We'd the best defence in the league last season and you cite Aggar as not being a excellent player? And the others, Momo, Kuyt and Crouch. I'd say these are pretty excellent squad players. Name me a better forward that works as hard as Kuyt does when we don't have the ball. Not exactly prolific, but he runs his heart out for the team.

by **Red Macgregor** » Tue Jun 26, 2007 6:44 am

As someone has already posted perhaps the market has changed, gone are the days when you could buy a decent forward for under £10m who could consistently get into double figures in the season for you.

So you are left with bringing someone on from the youth squad (which seems almost impossible now) or you are on the transfer market for megga bucks and all the risks that go with that option.

Crouch originally came as a forward and when he wasn't scoring he was described by Rafa as providing a service to othere but he quickly described him as a forward again when he started to score goals.

So what talent is available and do we have the money and would they fit into the changing room dynamics?

by **LFC #1** » Tue Jun 26, 2007 7:10 am

Lando_Griffin wrote:Speaking of flops - Sylvain Wiltord.

In for £13m, out for a big fat f*cking ZERO.

Or Robert Pires? How much did that Frog magician make on his transfer? MINUS £6m.

But still - he's BRILLIANT in the transfer market, don'tcha know?

Agree on Wiltord but Pires? C'mon Lando he was one of the best players in the league when Arsenal were at their peak.

When Arsenal sold him he was on the decline and you wouldn't expect to make a profit on him anyway. Making profits on players isn't a good way to judge a transfer if that said player has been an integral part of winning you numerous trophies which would have been more beneficial financially than any possible sale of that player.

by **Redrider** » Tue Jun 26, 2007 7:56 am

Red Macgregor wrote:As someone has already posted perhaps the market has changed, gone are the days when you could buy a decent forward for under £10m who could consistently get into double figures in the season for you.

So you are left with bringing someone on from the youth squad (which seems almost impossible now) or you are on the transfer market for megga bucks and all the risks that go with that option.

Crouch originally came as a forward and when he wasn't scoring he was described by Rafa as providing a service to othere but he quickly described him as a forward again when he started to score goals.

So what talent is available and do we have the money and would they fit into the changing room dynamics?

You started this thread, now you are off on a tangent again.
You have already been down the route of Psychology and got youself shot down in flames on that one!

What's your game here ?
:alien:

by **account deleted by request** » Tue Jun 26, 2007 8:59 am

Rafas buys

Alonso - top class
Reina - top class
Mascherano - top class (on loan )

Sissolo - good player
Agger - good player
Crouch - good player

Garcia good player but.......

Kuyt - Decent player - could have bought better Berbatov for example but second season will tell all.
Pennant - decent player - could have bought better as we paid over the odds for English.
Bellamy - decent player - could have bought better but not for £6million

All the rest are either unproven, short term fix's or just cr@p

To me that record says Rafa has done ok but still has something to prove when it comes to the transfer market.

As for selling players for a profit, that is not how you judge a managers successful transfers (we are not a fkn shop) its what they do on the pitch for the club which shows whether they are a success or not. Hamann cost us £8million we sold him for £100k was he a cr@p because we lost money, or a great buy because he helped us win cups and was one of the best players at our club in his time here?

by **66-1112520797** » Tue Jun 26, 2007 9:12 am

Red Macgregor wrote:Just a thought but do we think Rafa can pull of the big value buy, say in the £20m, or is his skill in the lower value?

Well for me the jury is still out until the end of summer to see whether Benitez is able to sign the quality the first team need.

As for spotting young talent and bringing them to the club I couldnt honestly say, as I havent seen any of the youngsters play. I suppose it would be telling if we saw a couple in the first squad occasionally but we havent really, not yet anyway.

As for "big buys" if Rafa is looking at Torres as rumours suggest and for the price's being banded I'd probably doubt his eye for players.

Either way many of us kept saying last season and towards the end of it. That this summer is going to be a decisive one for Rafa and Liverpool. I said last season during the lows of frustration at watching us play something really positive has to happen to make us challenge for the league next year.

At the end of the day it would be nice and ideal to see Rafa bring in quality players, but even if he didnt and the squad hardley change I'd still expect to see a big improvement on last season.

by **Redrider** » Tue Jun 26, 2007 9:38 am

Bamaga man wrote:
Red Macgregor wrote:Just a thought but do we think Rafa can pull of the big value buy, say in the £20m, or is his skill in the lower value?

Well for me the jury is still out until the end of summer to see whether Benitez is able to sign the quality the first team need.

As for "big buys" if Rafa is looking at Torres as rumours suggest and for the price's being banded I'd probably doubt his eye for players.

Either way many of us kept saying last season and towards the end of it. That this summer is going to be a decisive one for Rafa and Liverpool.

I have to say that my feeling is that this coming season will be the last for Rafa at LFC unless we have some major success.

It is fairly apparent that he is not close enough to the new owners and that they will soon see him as a lose cannon.

He will continue to be tempted by offers from Spanish Clubs and even the offer to manage Spain the nation !

I also doubt wheter he has the ability to recruit the right players. He talks a good game, but up to now only Alonso has been a total success, all of his other purchases have been exposed with weaknesses.

I would also doubt his tactical accumen, which had it's limitations exposed in the CL Final, where AC Milan were their for the taking.

Sorry, but looks like Rafa's swansong this season.

by **ICE-MAN** » Tue Jun 26, 2007 10:01 am

I have to disagree with the last few posts there, quite the negativity!
"I have to doubt rafas eye for talent" is b*llsh*t due to a number of reasons:

1 - He hasnt had the decnt money over the last few seasons so has had to go for cheaper players, pennant instead of alves, bellamy instead of villa, he also wanted gabby milito who is being courted by all the big clubs, he wanted all of these players before they were as big as they are now so that shows his eye for talent is good!

2 - There is no manager in the world who gets 100% of his signings spot on everytime, ferguson wenger mourinho have all made a mess of signings at one stage or another, and some of theirs were big name signings eg veron, shevchenko!

3 - A lot of people are suffering from 'the grass is greener on the other side' syndrome, rafa has made some quality signings in my opinion, players like reina, alonso, agger, crouch, mascherano are quality players, and they didnt cost an arm and a leg! If we had more funds, alves simao villa and milito would be here as well, so i dont doubt rafas ability, yes he made some mistakes but he was quick to get rid of the dead wood unlike houllier!

I do agree that this season is of real importance and if we struggle to finish 4th then i dont see rafa hanging around, but some people need to stop doubting his transfer policy, so much goes on behind the scenes that people dont know about, and the financial strains that he had to work with is hindering the progress he wants to make, and before u start sayin lets bring in sam allardyce or people who can work on a shoe string budget, keep the faith in rafa!!!

by **Redrider** » Tue Jun 26, 2007 10:57 am

ICE MAN, sorry, I don't mean to appear negative - just taking a realistic view !
1. Rafa has had plenty of money to play with, it has been his choice to sign many mediocre players rather than a smaller nr of great players.

2. You are correct, all of the big name managers have been close to failure in their early years, but that is exactly what we are saying, this looks like the make or break year for Rafa coming up. Rafa has had no big name failures, only because he has not signed any yet. But he has certainly had his share of failures in the <£5m region.
3.Only Alonso can claim to be the real deal, Agger has potential and Mashcerano is only here on loan, we may yet lose him.
4. Rafa's transfer dealings by comparison with other club's look extremely clumsey. Others, have made their big deals already and very swiftly - Barca, only took a weekend to clinch the Henry deal.
Having started a week ago, Rafa appears to be staggering towards a deal for Torres, which must be upsetting for the LFC Players, who must all be wondering who will be next to be offered as a makeweight.

Now, I defintely would not advocate bringing in Sam Alardyce. Rafa is probably as good as we can get at the moment. However, I do not subscribe to the view that he is the new Messiah and we are in for a period of unbroken stability.
With the sale of the club, I reckon we are in for a period of unprecedented change and Rafa will soon be riding on the Managerial Merry go Round.
Who knows Wenger could be the next man in the Anfield Control Seat !! :blues:

by **Wilhelmsson** » Tue Jun 26, 2007 11:18 am

Stu.Murph wrote:
Wilhelmsson wrote:Rafa hasn’t been able to get top class attacking players because of the tight transfer budget and the incompetence of Rick Parry, the sooner Foster Gillett becomes Chief Executive of the club, the better, Rafa will get the attacking players he wants when Rick the green grocer Parry is replaced by someone with a ruthless and competent business sense.

What absoloute, utter rubbish and typical pass the buck, everything is rosey brigade attitude.

I don’t see how stating the obvious is being rose tinted as you so profoundly put it. If you want great players who will come in and bring about change then you need to have the financial clout to bring in the required players to help reach the clubs expectations and achieve the clubs ambitions and will make that much needed change.

Rafa was forced into allowing Owen to leave and replacing someone of Owen’s ability in front of goal costs as substantial amount of money. A club is hardly going to sell their prized strikers to leave for tip pence are they? If you allow your most prized asset to walk out of the door, you will want enough money to find a suitable replacement. If you want a striker who does the business in front of goal then you’ll have to pay inflated prices for such players and we could not do this under David Moores’ guidance.

Rafa should have perhaps spent his budget more wisely, instead of signing six or seven squad players in one transfer window he should have signed two very good players who would improve the first team, and he has done this to a lesser extent with a small proportion of his signings. Now he has more than a miserly £30m to spend he’ll no doubt bring in players who will help improve the first team and if he doesn’t then questions will be asked and criticisms will be made.

My criticisms of Rick Parry are more than justifiable; he has shown a tremendous amount of negligence and a tremendous amount of incompetence. I don’t want to get into a long winded discussion about Rick, but he has been a major obstacle in Rafa’s rebuilding programme and he has cost Rafa some important signings. Fowler has said that Parry was near enough impossible to contact during his transfer to Leeds United, Parry had his phone off for my most part and this jeopardised the deal from completion. Gerrard was kept waiting around eight weeks for a new contract to negotiated between him, Rick and the club, this was due to Parry jetting off to one corner of the global on a holiday during one of the most crucial periods of the clubs calendar. He messed up the Simao deal by being lax about it and letting it run down to the final day of the transfer window and he faxed Spartak Moscow too late with Liverpool’s proposed interest in Vidic, by then he had already agreed personal terms with United.

Rafa is not responsible for contract negotiations and personal terms that is Parry’s job and its Parry job’s to liaise between Rafa, the player in question and the club the player belongs to. IMO Parry has been somewhat of a hindrance and a thorn in Rafa’s side, I’m pretty sure we wouldn’t have needed to sign Pennant had Parry struck a deal out between Benfica and Liverpool for the sale of Simao.

It has little to do with passing the buck, if Rafa is trying to carve a gnome out of a block of wood then he needs both hands to work with, thus far at Liverpool he has one hand tied behind his back. This summer has both hands free (according to Gillett and Hicks) and this season is his judgement season, if we fail to do well this season and if we fail to challenge then the buck will stop with Rafa. The reason for this is Rafa is cutting the middle man out of the picture i.e. Parry and is heading straight to the board, there is no excuse for Benitez anymore.

by **Red Macgregor** » Tue Jun 26, 2007 11:30 am

Wilhelmsson

Interesting points you raise but how do you know the roles of the manger in each transfer? Its just that to me its never that clear cut who does what other than I guess it changes with the personalities involved in each club?

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