Liverpool FC Forum

by **maguskwt** » Fri Jun 15, 2007 7:27 pm

LFC2007 wrote:
puroresu wrote:
LFC2007 wrote:
humdrum wrote:
kobashi wrote:problem is chelsea and man utd finished 20 points clear of us so we need some big names.

at last - someone talking sense

Or not, "big names" are not what I want to see. Players who suit us, players with top quality and players with the corect attitude are the ones I want to see join us.

Go down the Chelsea Schevchenko route and you can spank a sh!t load of money in one go.

A lack of "big names" is not what cost us those 20 points, there was plenty more to the equation than that. If you took time to read some of the threads before joining you might have thought twice about making comments like that.

What like a dodgy fixture list. The reason we were so far behind was down to lack of winning games. Poor away from and the inability to win winning going behind. The side we have at the moment cannot win the title and we need to improve. There will always be unknown gems out there but 'Big names' tend to be the ones who posess the real quality.

Sheva was disappointing. I would never say paying £30 mil for a 30 year old was wise but I dont think anyone can say they thought he would struggle like he did.

A lack of winning games - state the obvious. The reason was not lacking in "big names".

Things such as overrotation, injuries, tactics, attitude, motivation, combined with a lack of quality in particular areas were some of the reasons why we couldn't keep up.

"Big names" may have individual quality, but they do not necessarily fit into the side, Veron anyone?

You don't look for a player by the criteria of "big name" or no "big name" - you look for the person who will fit the bill.

If that person is perceived to have a "big name" then fine, but Rafa doesn't sit in his office and look at a list of "big names", he looks for quality that will suit us.

maybe you could give us a sample list of those kinda players that you're talking about that we should sign...

...so that we will be like...hmmm LFC2007 has a point... maybe we souldn't be going for tevezes or eto'os...

I mean I admire your optimism but...all I see from you recently is that you shoot down everyone's concern by sitting on a pedestal and say who says this is true who says that is true... it's quite easy to say 'who says benyaoun is the only player we're signing? we can sign 3 top players on top of benyaoun'... but it is not realistic at all to believe that we will be signing 3 top players after we sign benyaoun...we got enough squad players...what we need is quality signing...and if we're connected with forlans, bents and benyaouns...it IS a very concerning situation...

oh and regarding the CL final match...the person who said we weren't nullifying milan must have been drinking beer a mug too many or have very little football knowledge...milan's attack comes from kaka and seedorf...and they weren't anywhere to be found for the first 60+ minutes...BECAUSE we nullified them...and that's why milan couldn't attack at all...that was how it was and everybody knows that...they got a fluke goal off insaghi against the flow of play...then we took out masherano...and kaka was freed and we conceded a second...rafa had his tactics spot on...if we had a half decent left winger and a more quality centre forward (like drogba) the result would have been very likely to be different...and that's also exactly why we need a quality striker and a left winger at least...

by **Sabre** » Fri Jun 15, 2007 7:48 pm

. but it is not realistic at all to believe that we will be signing 3 top players after we sign benyaoun...

In order to agree or disagree, I'd like to know why you think that mate.

Take any top club. Any. Barcelona for instance. They have the Eto'os and Ronaldinhos, and they have the Giulys and Mottas.

Take Liverpool. We have the Gerrards, and we have the Finnans and Riises, who, are not world class, but they're definitely important in the team and they perform well.

So we need decent players aswell as great names, IMHO. And it's easier to convince and negotiate for a decent player than for a higher name, and probably it takes more time, not to mention some top players are still playing the Liga.

So I don't see why the signing up of Benayoun means we won't be signing up big names later...

I'll tell you what's not realistic in my view, if I read this headline

"Liverpool, 2005 champions and current CL finalist only signs up Benayoun and X decent player for next season".

So we can only expect more signings, and according to what the owners say and Rafa says, and the players say, it's going to be exciting.

by **LFC2007** » Fri Jun 15, 2007 7:50 pm

Who would I like to see us sign?

I have already given my views, had you read them you wouldn't come out with tripe like this.

I don't understand your point because it makes no sense whatsoever.

My optimism? Being realistic and viewing the situation with a bit of perspective?

Is that optimism, if so, call me an optimist because I'd rather be that than anything else.

We have not signed Benayoun, we have not signed Bent - FACT.

IF we sign Benayoun, in all likelihood it would not be the end of our transfer dealings. If you think this is an indication that we will not be signing top quality then that's down to you - I strongly disagree.

Is it inconceivable that Benayoun could be a good squad player? I mean, Zenden's on his way, Gonzales too, is Benayoun not a very good versatile backup for a nominal fee? What evidence is there to suggest we won't sign any top players in the transfer window any way? You pay more credence to the reports linking us to the likes of Bent and Forlan than you do with Tevez, Simao, Malouda or Eto'o. Is that not the mark of a pessimist?

Your point seems to be based around "IF", concerning reports about Forlan and Bent, well I'll tell you we've also been linked to a host of other players - top players.

Not realistic to believe we could sign three top players? Why?
I'd say that's more than realistic.

by **Sabre** » Fri Jun 15, 2007 8:02 pm

I'd like to know aswell why some people mention so much Manchester United.

In my view Liverpool is a top club. And the owners and the coach and the players say there's an exciting project. And there's a plan.

And a plan means that the plan will have some names for the future, X,Y,Z, Lambda and Gamma, some of them will be great, some of them decent, all of them part of the plan. Some of them to make more goals than our current strikers, others to give depth to a squad just in case they have to play games due to suspensions of cards, little injuries, or simple rests.

And having a plan implies that we should give a flying fúck for what Manchester and Chelsea do. They want to pay 50M for 2 unknown players in this league? so be it, we don't care.

They decide to sign up Pizarro? ok, he's unimpressive and we don't want him. They sign up Sidwell? who the fúck is Sidwell? he's an utter unknown outside his country. We only have to be worried about our plan, and bothered by other teams if they mess with our plans. Other than that, what they do is irrelevant.

As a Liverpool fan, I think we just started to sign up players, and we're trying to buy a decent one at a decent price first.

The other teams? so far one seems to be putting ridiculous money, and the other one bringing players ending contracts and half arsed player (they also paid ridiculous amounts of money in the past not to win the CL BTW). They're irrelevant. The plan is what matters. I'd love to know what's the plan. But in Rafa I trust.

by **Penguins** » Fri Jun 15, 2007 8:06 pm

I just don't buy the concept that you don't need to spend big to win.

Arsenal won the league 4 season ago.
They have spent very little the last 2 seasons and they have ended 4th 2 times in a row.

Is it any surprise that Chelski and manure has ended 1st and 2nd the last 2 years?
NO, cause they cough up the cash.

A team who aspire to win the league will have to spend more than £14m which is our record fee. In comparison to the 2 teams we are chasing it's peanuts.

Our biggest purchase for a defender? 5.8 million.
Chelski? 20 million
Manure? 28 million

Our biggest Our biggest purchase for a midfielder? 10.5m
Chelski? 25 million
Manure? 18 million

Our biggest Our biggest purchase for a Striker? 14m
Chelski? 30 million
Manure? 26 million

Those numbers don't lie. And unless we start shopping in the same district as those 2 we will never win the league.

And please spare me the "what about Veron?"

There is always exceptions to the rule!
It doesn't change the fact that money talks and it brings you quality.

And being able to make big signings also sends out a message both to the squad and our rivals that we mean business.

Going through the bargain bin every summer sends out all the wrong signals.

Not once have we signed a 15m player and Rafa has had 15million on all new signings each summer.
He has performed miracles and he has done great in his transfer dealings with the resources he has had.
Only fools claim that rafa has had all the money in the world and that he has been unsuccessful.

by **LFC2007** » Fri Jun 15, 2007 8:12 pm

Penguins wrote:I just don't buy the concept that you don't need to spend big to win.

Arsenal won the league 4 season ago.
They have spent very little the last 2 seasons and they have ended 4th 2 times in a row.

Is it any surprise that Chelski and manure has ended 1st and 2nd the last 2 years?
NO, cause they cough up the cash.

A team who aspire to win the league will have to spend more than £14m which is our record fee. In comparison to the 2 teams we are chasing it's peanuts.

Our biggest purchase for a defender? 5.8 million.
Chelski? 20 million
Manure? 28 million

Our biggest Our biggest purchase for a midfielder? 10.5m
Chelski? 25 million
Manure? 18 million

Our biggest Our biggest purchase for a Striker? 14m
Chelski? 30 million
Manure? 26 million

Those numbers don't lie. And unless we start shopping in the same district as those 2 we will never win the league.

And please spare me the "what about Veron?"

There is always exceptions to the rule!
It doesn't change the fact that money talks and it brings you quality.

And being able to make big signings also sends out a message both to the squad and our rivals that we mean business.

Going through the bargain bin every summer sends out all the wrong signals.

Not once have we signed a 15m player and Rafa has had 15million on all new signings each summer.
He has performed miracles and he has done great in his transfer dealings with the resources he has had.
Only fools claim that rafa has had all the money in the world and that he has been unsuccessful.

You miss the point don't you,

Money brings in quality, clearly, there are exceptions. But the criteria by which you look for a player is a) Quality and b) suitability.

You don't go out and say let's p!ss £30m on one player without consulting what you need first. Veron, Schevchenko, Mendieta - all example of this, it's a championship manager style appraisal and it doesn't work.

Nor do you draw up a list of "big names", you look for quality and suitability - if they cost more - so be it, that is what is required.

BTW Arsenal spent next to bugg.er all and went unbeaten in 03/04 so it is not entirely inconceivable - although CURRENTLY the situation is a lot different, Chelsea changed the dynamic entirely in the summer after that season.

by **Penguins** » Fri Jun 15, 2007 8:38 pm

I know every player worth 30m will not suit playing for us at all.
There are some of those that wouldn't do that well.

BUT, my point is that there also are players that cost alot and could make us take a step up and show our intent to our rivals.

We have never done that, and especially the top quality offensive minded players always cost alot.

And when we, a supposed top club can't spend, (once again no indication of anything different) 15m+ on any player, makes it extremly difficult to compete for trophies.

Rafa has been doing great turning every pence, except for a few cases, and has assembled a real nice squad, but he must be allowed to make 2-3 20m+ signings that are top quality or I just feel we won't catch Chelski and manure.

We have lived of 6-9m signings as long as possible, but it will not be enough.

I am of the belief that Rafa has improved the players and improves the players that has come and gets out much of their ability. But he can't tap up quality that isn't in the players.
Kewell, Pennant, Garcia as our flair players is just sad.

I'm not saying they're bad players. When fit and on their game they produce. But all off them are unreliable, injury prone and sometimes goes through cold streches.
They all lack top quality and consistency over a whole season.
They all cost around 5-7 million and we need at least one world class player in that position that might cost around 20m each.

by **LFC2007** » Fri Jun 15, 2007 8:49 pm

I don't care about showing intent to our rivals, we will do our own business. If those players cost £15m or £20m then fine, but there is nothing to suggest we won't be signing talent within that price range this transfer window.

A "supposed" top club?

:no

by **Penguins** » Fri Jun 15, 2007 11:09 pm

When I mean top club, I mean ambition to be or fight for no 1 spot. You will not be that if you spend 7m on average for every player you bring in when your rival club brings in 20-30m players.

And when did we spend 15-20 million on any player?
What indication have we got that we will?
Heskey at 11 million is the second highest fee we have ever spent!!!
That will get you nowhere in todays game. Tottenham and Newcastle have had at least the same spending power the last 3 seasons and only Rafa's tactical brilliance and transfer success has got us to where we are.
And we are not in a situation to buy cheap players and hope they will become top quality. Tried that with Gonzales and that's how it usually goes.
Only reports I've been reading says Rafa will once again have little funds and that Rafa is dissapointed.
Only confirmed bid has so far been Benayoun.

I'd love to see something that tells me different, but so far nothing. And I find it very important to get as many signings in as possible before training camp so the team can gel and avoid a slow start. Even Rafa really stressed it was very important to be fast with the transfers.
And still nothing has happened 3 weeks later.

by **peterc1992** » Sat Jun 16, 2007 2:57 am

I would be happy if we brought in Bent,sold bellamy,bring in Malouda,and a class international right midfielder!i thiink benitez if doing eveything behind the scenes,hes know what he is doing and with bent rejecting west ham last night i have a feally benitez had something to do with it! rmemeber kuyt last year,we thought we wouldnt sign any other players and we splashed the cash the last few days!

by **LFC2007** » Sat Jun 16, 2007 3:08 am

Penguins wrote:And when did we spend 15-20 million on any player?
What indication have we got that we will?
Only reports I've been reading says Rafa will once again have little funds and that Rafa is dissapointed.

I'd love to see something that tells me different, but so far nothing.

Reports with little or NO foundation whatsoever.

Did you not read Gillett's comments?

You base your view on "reports" that any :censored:

.er could write.

Do you really think they'd sell many papers if "everything is hunky dory" was the headline?

by **maguskwt** » Sat Jun 16, 2007 5:14 am

LFC2007 wrote:Who would I like to see us sign?

I have already given my views, had you read them you wouldn't come out with tripe like this.

I don't understand your point because it makes no sense whatsoever.

My optimism? Being realistic and viewing the situation with a bit of perspective?

Is that optimism, if so, call me an optimist because I'd rather be that than anything else.

We have not signed Benayoun, we have not signed Bent - FACT.

IF we sign Benayoun, in all likelihood it would not be the end of our transfer dealings. If you think this is an indication that we will not be signing top quality then that's down to you - I strongly disagree.

Is it inconceivable that Benayoun could be a good squad player? I mean, Zenden's on his way, Gonzales too, is Benayoun not a very good versatile backup for a nominal fee? What evidence is there to suggest we won't sign any top players in the transfer window any way? You pay more credence to the reports linking us to the likes of Bent and Forlan than you do with Tevez, Simao, Malouda or Eto'o. Is that not the mark of a pessimist?

Your point seems to be based around "IF", concerning reports about Forlan and Bent, well I'll tell you we've also been linked to a host of other players - top players.

Not realistic to believe we could sign three top players? Why?
I'd say that's more than realistic.

well sorry for not willing or having the time to browse a zillion pages to find your posts about the players you supposedly mentioned...or is it your views? if it's your views don't bother cause I already know... it's very obvious to say we don't need star players look at morientes, veron, etc etc who failed...we need players suitable for LFC... I totally agree... that's why I've mentioned in some of my posts and implied that maybe we should get anelka or even owen back... they are still very decent finishers and are value for money...the reality is that there aren't many top strikers in the market... and we need a top striker...I don't mind an average winger which is why i don't mind seeing us linked with malouda, or simao or whoever... but we need a top top striker... and it upsets me especially when you know tevez is on the market and an opportunity to sign and now because we don't move fast enough or are unwilling to pay the asking prize he might end in inter ...eto'o is being bid by milan...

yes i know nothing is confirmed yet... but do you suppose that tevez has already agreed to sign with us secretly and saying all those BS like him wanting to join inter as a smokescreen? the reality is that if we approach a player there WILL be a media report...why isn't there any news about us linked with tevez or eto'o nowadays? It looks to me that we're never willing to pay alot of money for top players... it was understandable previously but now with the new owners I expect a tad better... we're not aggressive enough in the transfer market that's why we always end up with mediocre players... now milan has confirmed they're going in for eto'o and considering IF he is for sale where do you think eto'o is most likely to go? it's simply not good enough right now...

man u splashed crazy money on a central defender, a 17 year old unproven kid, an 18 year old unproven portuguese kid, a decent CM who they think fits well to the team...and look who their key players are now? and now they're doing the same thing with 3 transfers... that's how we should bid if we have the money (but i really doubt we have) and scare off other competitors... not keep quiet to lower the price money and let other clubs swoop them... that's just too lame and tame...

so I do feel that sometimes your optimism is abit misplaced LFC2007...and right now the situation is just not good enough...

by **Penguins** » Sat Jun 16, 2007 5:23 am

peterc1992 wrote:I would be happy if we brought in Bent,sold bellamy,bring in Malouda,and a class international right midfielder!i thiink benitez if doing eveything behind the scenes,hes know what he is doing and with bent rejecting west ham last night i have a feally benitez had something to do with it! rmemeber kuyt last year,we thought we wouldnt sign any other players and we splashed the cash the last few days!

And the reports may have had little or no foundation, but itäs still the only kind of reports we've been given. Where there is smoke...
And why only write about us?
Journalists could write just as easily about newcastle, Arsenal, Chelski, Villa etc about their lack of action or friction between the manager and board.
Not once have I heard about any Maureen-Abramovish disagreements.

Since it's still rather early and the owners to some degree has talked alot about support I'm not going to say it will all turn out bad or that I have lost faith.
Just a bit worried about the signals sent out lately and the lack of activity. Rafa's call for haste after the CL final made me think we would get most new players ready for training camp. I don't want anymore late august signings who have to be put into the team 5 games into the season. That spells disaster in my eyes...
Putting all hope on the ending of the spanish league to get things going....

To be honest, the difference between Bent and bellamy is not big at all to begin with and seeing bent would cost twice as much than we would get for bellamy, I don't find that very good at all.
I do agree about the need for 2 wingers, but 17m for malouda is not something I agree on.
And Charlton has already said that WH was the only team to meet the price they wanted and unless they get that he stays.
And I don't want anymore last week signings in August when the season is long started....

by **LFC2007** » Sat Jun 16, 2007 3:22 pm

maguskwt wrote:I don't mind an average winger which is why i don't mind seeing us linked with malouda, or simao or whoever... but we need a top top striker... and it upsets me especially when you know tevez is on the market and an opportunity to sign and now because we don't move fast enough or are unwilling to pay the asking prize he might end in inter ...eto'o is being bid by milan...

yes i know nothing is confirmed yet... but do you suppose that tevez has already agreed to sign with us secretly and saying all those BS like him wanting to join inter as a smokescreen? the reality is that if we approach a player there WILL be a media report...why isn't there any news about us linked with tevez or eto'o nowadays? It looks to me that we're never willing to pay alot of money for top players... it was understandable previously but now with the new owners I expect a tad better... we're not aggressive enough in the transfer market that's why we always end up with mediocre players... now milan has confirmed they're going in for eto'o and considering IF he is for sale where do you think eto'o is most likely to go? it's simply not good enough right now...

man u splashed crazy money on a central defender, a 17 year old unproven kid, an 18 year old unproven portuguese kid, a decent CM who they think fits well to the team...and look who their key players are now? and now they're doing the same thing with 3 transfers... that's how we should bid if we have the money (but i really doubt we have) and scare off other competitors... not keep quiet to lower the price money and let other clubs swoop them... that's just too lame and tame...

so I do feel that sometimes your optimism is abit misplaced LFC2007...and right now the situation is just not good enough...

If you consider Malouda or Simao average, what does that make Pennant?

And where are the wingers out there who you consider above average?

You get worried over a few unconfirmed press reports and say that we are missing out on Tevez - even when we KNOW the situation with MSI and his West Ham contract is HIGHLY likely to delay any possible move to ANY club. It's not as simple as championship manager.

As for the part about there WILL be a press report linking us with a player, that is complete and utter rubbish. How many times do the press completely fabricate a story, or at the very least make incredibly misleading judgements? It sells papers, don't you get it!

"It looks to me as we're never willing to pay top money for players"

Based on what?

Big money transfers don't often happen overnight, in the past we have never had the big money backing for top players, now by all accounts we will.

But there is no time for patience and considered thinking in your book is there?

What the mancs do is none of our business whatsoever, we may have targets that are playing in la liga an there is no way a deal would be announced before its conclusion.

As for other players in other leagues, how many top transfers have gone through?

Not many at all.

In summary you base your argument on ifs and buts and stupid press reports that have little or no weight and are often misconstrued.

You don't know what is going on behind the scenes with transfers, it takes time to sign up Gerrard, Carra, Alonso and Reina, whilst also bringing in Leiva, two youngsters, striking a new academy deal with MTK, getting the stadium plans in order/finalised etc.... No other club has done so much work as we have in such a short space of time.

My optimism is not misplaced, it is showing perspective based on what we know and the record of what the owners have said.

If you have no faith in the owners and Rafa to deliver, fine, I don't give a rats ar.se what you think.

by **maguskwt** » Sat Jun 16, 2007 7:21 pm

LFC2007 wrote:If you consider Malouda or Simao average, what does that make Pennant?

And where are the wingers out there who you consider above average?

You get worried over a few unconfirmed press reports and say that we are missing out on Tevez - even when we KNOW the situation with MSI and his West Ham contract is HIGHLY likely to delay any possible move to ANY club. It's not as simple as championship manager.

As for the part about there WILL be a press report linking us with a player, that is complete and utter rubbish. How many times do the press completely fabricate a story, or at the very least make incredibly misleading judgements? It sells papers, don't you get it!

"It looks to me as we're never willing to pay top money for players"

Based on what?

Big money transfers don't often happen overnight, in the past we have never had the big money backing for top players, now by all accounts we will.

But there is no time for patience and considered thinking in your book is there?

What the mancs do is none of our business whatsoever, we may have targets that are playing in la liga an there is no way a deal would be announced before its conclusion.

As for other players in other leagues, how many top transfers have gone through?

Not many at all.

In summary you base your argument on ifs and buts and stupid press reports that have little or no weight and are often misconstrued.

You don't know what is going on behind the scenes with transfers, it takes time to sign up Gerrard, Carra, Alonso and Reina, whilst also bringing in Leiva, two youngsters, striking a new academy deal with MTK, getting the stadium plans in order/finalised etc.... No other club has done so much work as we have in such a short space of time.

My optimism is not misplaced, it is showing perspective based on what we know and the record of what the owners have said.

If you have no faith in the owners and Rafa to deliver, fine, I don't give a rats ar.se what you think.

if you don't give a "rats ar.se" what i think then don't bother giving an 18-sentence reply...

where did I say malouda and simao are average? I said I don't mind "average" wingers to emphasize my point about needing a top striker... oh but of course I forgot to mention my posts are not very nit-pick proof... what do i think of pennant? he's average and that's why I wasn't even talking about him...but I do mind below average wingers like zenden and gonzalez...and i got no reason to tell you wingers I think are above average when it is not the point of my discussion...

Yes we are missing out on Tevez... you don't think so? I will apologise to you 4 times on here if we sign tevez permanently or on loan... I will be so happy that I won't mind doing somthing rubbish like that... if the ownership of the player is so complicated how did we get mascherano so easily? do YOU know for a fact what's happening?

Oh sure I do get that papers spread rumours to sell...what I'm concerned is not having any rumours at all... if there's any move by us on tevez or eto'o there will be rumours... those kinda info always leaks... so what? rafa and parry are so stealthy that they can seal deals without anyone noticing now? don't make me laugh...

you can naively believe whatever the owners say... don't forget though that they ARE businessmen and they have shrewd PR skills... not to mention they are yanks...and yanks always tend to say pretty things...what do you expect lol... I on the other hand choose to take whatever they say with a pinch of salt...

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