Liverpool FC Forum

by **bigmick** » Wed May 30, 2007 10:56 am

Bamaga man wrote:But on your quote there Mick, and I maybe wrong buy I cant see Xabi Alonso finding much more to his game than what he's already got. He isnt the most mobile of players, infact he's quite slow unlike Mascha, and I cant honestly see him becoming a box to box midfielder. Maybe not the best example, but its almost like asking Jan Molby to become one too.

Yeah I didn't explain myself very well at all there BM and you're quite right, Xabi will never be a box to box midfielder in the sense that we all understand the phrase.

What I kind of meant though, was that if Xabi could move up and down the pitch more, as opposed to sideways and backwards, he would be much harder to nullify. Now when you read that back it sounds like I'm describing Xabi as being crab-like, Ray Wilkins even but that's not what I mean either.

I'd like to see him bust a gut to get in behind Kuyt when the ball is pinged into him down the channel from the full-back. When it's out wide, in between the half way line and the oppositon goal I'd like to see him get level with the ball carrier. When his midfield partner has it, I'd like to see him have another movement other than towards the ball carrier, I'd like to see him backpeddle away from him and look to take the ball on the half turn. In short, I'd like to see him gamble more. I know he's not the quickest or the most mobile but for me in the last year or so he has played it too safe, took the easy option too many times and not stretched himself during games.

Yes he does stuff that some don't see. Yes there's the unnoticed covering and screening, the tackles and getting the foot in, but he's a better player than having just that to his game. Like I said, Zidane was slow but he had multi movement and could recieve it from any angle. At the moment, Xabi really looks to recieve it almost all the time from the full-backs and centre halves, and occasionally square around and about the half-way line. What I'm saying is lets open ourselves up for the pass a little, lets move out of the pocket. Sitting in the pocket sounds good, but if your not careful it becomes someone else's pocket.

by **66-1112520797** » Wed May 30, 2007 10:57 am

Sabre wrote:
Bamaga man wrote:
Well at least you put Football points, which I'm very grateful to read. Could you explain me why do you think Mascherano is probably more compatible than Alonso with Gerrard?

Could please explain why Xabi should get the nod ahead of Gerrard in the middle, or better still answer my why Xabi and Gerrard arent picked together by Benitez ?

I already have explained so.

I think that as soon as we have the positions that Gerrard has been playing this two last seasons, you'll see Gerrard in the CM again, no matter what. Out of the 3 places of the CM, one will be for Gerrad, and the other one for Alonso *OR* Mascherano.

Gato Busta has explained it all better than me in another post, if you're interested. He makes an analysis of the two formations we play usually (442 4411).

Hopefully with that new guy Leiva, and with a right MIDFIELDER (as we already have a right winger), then Gerrard won't play again in that position. I'd sign up an Arteta, a versatile player that can do the CM, RM positions (not RW).

In a nutshell, Rafa has preffered to deploy Gerrard in other places (this is pure especulation and feeling like Bigmick's) because there were zones of the pitch and roles that were uncovered, while the middle was well covered by Alonso and a ball winner, or now that Mascherano has come.

But as soon as those positions are well covered? Gerrard, the best player of the squad will play his favourite position. And mascherano and Alonso will compete for the other spot. It will depend on opposition.

Sorry Sabre I didnt really understand your explanation, but lets just say that I think we'd agree to disagree on the matter.

by **Scottbot** » Wed May 30, 2007 10:57 am

bigmick wrote:This manifests itself as a problem when Alsonso and Gerrard play together in the centre because the feeling remains that both are trying to be the fulcrum of the team at the same time, coming back to recieve it off the defenders, looking to hit long passes etc. My hunch is that Masherano would be much happier to offload it five yards to Gerrard and have done with it than Alonso would, which in turn would make the captain more effective.

Nail on the head. In many respects they are the same player (or they want to be). Both like to drop off, take off the centre-halves, spread the ball about, start attacks etc. I've said a few times, watch Gerrard's performances in the middle this season. He has played with the control we have not seen since he was an out an out defensive midfielder in his early years. More Alonsoesque in his play i'd say.

by **Sabre** » Wed May 30, 2007 10:59 am

I'd like to see him bust a gut to get in behind Kuyt when the ball is pinged into him down the channel from the full-back. When it's out wide, in between the half way line and the oppositon goal I'd like to see him get level with the ball carrier. When his midfield partner has it, I'd like to see him have another movement other than towards the ball carrier, I'd like to see him backpeddle away from him and look to take the ball on the half turn. In short, I'd like to see him gamble more. I know he's not the quickest or the most mobile but for me in the last year or so he has played it too safe, took the easy option too many times and not stretched himself during games.

Do you think that's his decission or team instructions?

I mean the "too safe" bit.

Whenever I've seen Alonso gambling, the next scene in the TV is Rafa outraged and making the body language of "pulling"

by **Judge** » Wed May 30, 2007 10:59 am

Sabre wrote:Alonso's brother is absolutely shíte as a footballer.

A matter of genetics mate. Xabi got the genetics of the father the footballer. Mikel the brother has the genetics of the mother, so is a fucker.

Brothers.

ney mr sabre :laugh:

by **66-1112520797** » Wed May 30, 2007 11:01 am

And what about you Bamaga-man, do you think Bigmick is spot on then? or have you something to add of yourself?

I have explained myself enough times on this and to you, I feel like I have to keep explaining and explaining the same thing over and over again. In other Alonso topics, so no I will not, Big Micks say it perfectly why do I need to bother again.

by **Judge** » Wed May 30, 2007 11:02 am

Bamaga man wrote:
And what about you Bamaga-man, do you think Bigmick is spot on then? or have you something to add of yourself?

I have explained myself enough times on this and to you, I feel like I have to keep explaining and explaining the same thing over and over again. In other Alonso topics, so no I will not, Big Micks say it perfectly why do I need to bother again.

what have you explained, i never read your posts

by **Sabre** » Wed May 30, 2007 11:03 am

Anyway.

You're right. Interesting thread.

by **66-1112520797** » Wed May 30, 2007 11:04 am

I think they're compatible because their attributes are compatible

I was like you I remember saying the same thing, but thats in theory, when its put into practise its plain to see it hasnt come off, hense the reason why Benitez has tried, but doesnt seem 100% in their partnership.

by **Sabre** » Wed May 30, 2007 11:08 am

Bamaga man wrote:
I think they're compatible because their attributes are compatible

I was like you I remember saying the same thing, but thats in theory, when its put into practise its plain to see it hasnt come off, hense the reason why Benitez has tried, but doesnt seem 100% in their partnership.

If in practice Gerrard has been playing other positions, how you can say that in practice the partnership hasn't worked?

It's a theory aswell.

And if you point out the game in which it didn't work, how are you sure the game wasn't a failure due to other reasons, for instance last year, Luis Garcia playing a RM position?

I think the only reason to play Gerrard there at some point last season (Rafa didn't come up with that solution at the beginning) was after seeing that SOME OTHER options like Luis Garcia in the right didn't quite work, where as when we played Alonso, Sissoko, and Gerrard in the RM we got good results. And you always pick what makes best your team. The point is not Gerrard shines or plays the best position, the point is LFC shines.

by **66-1112520797** » Wed May 30, 2007 11:11 am

Judge wrote:
Bamaga man wrote:
And what about you Bamaga-man, do you think Bigmick is spot on then? or have you something to add of yourself?

I have explained myself enough times on this and to you, I feel like I have to keep explaining and explaining the same thing over and over again. In other Alonso topics, so no I will not, Big Micks say it perfectly why do I need to bother again.

what have you explained, i never read your posts

No and thats probably the best way to be, half the time there jibberish

by **bigmick** » Wed May 30, 2007 11:11 am

The non compatable thing though is something which is relative of course, and I may be completely wrong about the Masherano Gerrard axis, it may not work either. Clearly if we played Alonso and Gerrard central midfield, we would p!ss on most teams in Europe, it's just a feeling that against the top teams, there isn't quite the right balance.

The way round it of course is the same way around the other problems, in that Xabi would have to change the way he plays and develop his game (fecks sake I'd better type this bit quick and then feck off before Lando gets in from work

). It's quite possible that both Gerrard and Alonso could recieve it form the defenders and ping it long, provided of course that on the occasions when Gerrard does it, Alonso is not stood next to him watching. As long as when one comes short, the other gives an option it works. But, and this is the big but, Xabi doesn't. He always comes in and sits in the hole, making it impossible for this equal division of labour to prosper, and making it a clear decision, you EITHER play Alonso or Gerrard in the centre to get balance at the moment, not both.

by **66-1112520797** » Wed May 30, 2007 11:15 am

If in practice Gerrard has been playing other positions, how you can say that in practice the partnership hasn't worked?

Thats over the course of three seasons Sabre, Rafa has tried them briefly at points, mindyou I do think our results picked up this season gone when Gerrard WAS MOVED BACK to the middle with Alonso, but more often than not Benitez doesnt seem comfortable with it. And I dont know why, I havent asked him, but when I see him next I'll be sure to do.

by **Sabre** » Wed May 30, 2007 11:17 am

In my view, we all are seeing the SAME facts, but we simply find different explanations.

In my view aswell, next season we'll see who's right. Because we'll have a deeper and better squad, and then Rafa will pick the players and positions exactly as he wishes.

If he avoids the Alonso-Gerrard partnership, I'll be the first to admit I was wrong. So, let's just wait.

by **66-1112520797** » Wed May 30, 2007 11:19 am

Sabre wrote:
Bamaga man wrote:
I think they're compatible because their attributes are compatible

I was like you I remember saying the same thing, but thats in theory, when its put into practise its plain to see it hasnt come off, hense the reason why Benitez has tried, but doesnt seem 100% in their partnership.

If in practice Gerrard has been playing other positions, how you can say that in practice the partnership hasn't worked?

It's a theory aswell.

And if you point out the game in which it didn't work, how are you sure the game wasn't a failure due to other reasons, for instance last year, Luis Garcia playing a RM position?

I think the only reason to play Gerrard there at some point last season (Rafa didn't come up with that solution at the beginning) was after seeing that SOME OTHER options like Luis Garcia in the right didn't quite work, where as when we played Alonso, Sissoko, and Gerrard in the RM we got good results. And you always pick what makes best your team. The point is not Gerrard shines or plays the best position, the point is LFC shines.

Can I ask the questions ?

If they do work Alonso and Gerrard, in what games did they work and how do you know that has nothing to do with players like Garcia or Pennant improving the tactical side of it ?

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