Liverpool FC Forum

by **stmichael** » Thu Apr 12, 2007 3:06 pm

Just going back to comparisons with Rafa's Valencia, we are missing a Baraja type player just as much as we miss an Aimar type player.

Valencia's central midfield scored 10 goals a season, roughly 75 percent of them scored by Baraja. Whilst Rafa was at Valencia, he was basically a Spanish version of Gerrard, but with better positional sense. I think in Rafa's first season at Valencia, Baraja ended the season as the top scorer. The problem we have is our central midfield doesn't score goals, let alone provide a goal threat. To play with one upfront you need roughly 10 goals to come from central midfield imho, you need goals plenty from your midfield and not just from the wide players.

This is the one thing that Alonso needs to improve on big time, fair enough that he's been played in a defensive midfield role but imho he doesn't score enough goals and now that we have a class holding midfielder in Mascherano, I really would like to see Alonso playing 10-15 ft futher forward. We know that he can, he played alongside a holding midfielder in a traditional playmaker type role at Real Sociedad.

by **Bad Bob** » Thu Apr 12, 2007 5:02 pm

Stu.Murph wrote:I disagree with all those who say we need a right winger. Gerrard on the right occassionally with Mascherano in the middle, Pennant and Luis Garcia provide different kinds of threats and all have the quality to produce something good enough to win us a game. On the otherside i've said a million times, I like and rate Kewell. But he's just not reliable enough due to injuries and we don't have the backup good enough to rely on consistently over a period of time.

I'm starting to come around a bit on Pennant, actually. He's finally starting to look the part--taking fullbacks on and getting his crosses in. A bit more accuracy on some of them (and a bit more attacking intent from his intended targets) and we're in business. He does need to carry more of a goal threat, though. He was like a deer in the headlights last night when he was through on Gomez. But, definitely is starting to grow into the role.

So, I think our spending priorities this summer need to be a top class left winger and a top class striker ahead of a top class RM. I rate Kewell too but I wonder if he'll ever be fit again. A top class LM with Kewell, Riise and Gonzales as back-up sounds about right. The strikers have been discussed at length elsewhere so I won't rehash that. Should a quality RM come available, however, I'd like to see us strengthen there too--if only to give Rafa more of the "options" he loves so much.

BTW, totally agree with Stu as well about the sacrifices that come with playing Gerrard in the hole. He'll produce the odd moment of brilliance from there but there will be many, many games when people will think he's "poor" simply because he couldn't find or make the space needed to assert himself.

by **Stu.Murph** » Thu Apr 12, 2007 6:20 pm

Bad Bob wrote:
Stu.Murph wrote:I disagree with all those who say we need a right winger. Gerrard on the right occassionally with Mascherano in the middle, Pennant and Luis Garcia provide different kinds of threats and all have the quality to produce something good enough to win us a game. On the otherside i've said a million times, I like and rate Kewell. But he's just not reliable enough due to injuries and we don't have the backup good enough to rely on consistently over a period of time.

I'm starting to come around a bit on Pennant, actually. He's finally starting to look the part--taking fullbacks on and getting his crosses in. A bit more accuracy on some of them (and a bit more attacking intent from his intended targets) and we're in business. He does need to carry more of a goal threat, though. He was like a deer in the headlights last night when he was through on Gomez. But, definitely is starting to grow into the role.

So, I think our spending priorities this summer need to be a top class left winger and a top class striker ahead of a top class RM. I rate Kewell too but I wonder if he'll ever be fit again. A top class LM with Kewell, Riise and Gonzales as back-up sounds about right. The strikers have been discussed at length elsewhere so I won't rehash that. Should a quality RM come available, however, I'd like to see us strengthen there too--if only to give Rafa more of the "options" he loves so much.

BTW, totally agree with Stu as well about the sacrifices that come with playing Gerrard in the hole. He'll produce the odd moment of brilliance from there but there will be many, many games when people will think he's "poor" simply because he couldn't find or make the space needed to assert himself.

He's showing his ability finally in patches now. For 45 minutes yesterday for me was with Alonso the best player on the pitch.

He's starting to put his game together. Yesterday there was an incident where he missed the easy pass, the crowd all groaned, but instead he dribbled the ball to the center and as the play developed played a simple ten yard pass to Riise who was coming forward from left back, the crowd shut up and clapped.

One thing about him, he'll never be a goal threat, i've always acknowledged that. I also disagree about his crosses, they're absoloutely superb more often than not. The lack of ability with the exception of Fowler to go and genuinely attack them makes good balls like like poor ones.

Oh and for me, that Gomes is a hell of a goalkeeper and looks like he'd be worth having a look at... And before anyone starts, I rate Pepe alot, but you can never say no to improvement.

by **shineshin** » Thu Apr 12, 2007 6:37 pm

i prefer 4-2-3-1
but gerrard must be in the midfilder position.......
not even right winger:angry:
bellamy or penant maybe can replace each other of the right hand side position:)

by **red37** » Thu Apr 12, 2007 6:46 pm

Stu.Murph wrote:Oh and for me, that Gomes is a hell of a goalkeeper and looks like he'd be worth having a look at...

he is. Ive thought that for a while.

so was this fella - his brother Luisao at Benfica

two great lookylikes if ever there were..

by **Sabre** » Sat Apr 14, 2007 1:11 pm

I'm going to try to help Joe Thorpe, and I'd like some mates correct and help me too, since my footie Spanish vocabulary is different and sometimes there's not direct translation.

Anyway in American football teams will spend a great bit of time in the flim room studying their last game and their next opponent trying to learn tendencies in certain situaitons as well as strengths and weakness. Does this happen in football as well or is it mainly just a job for the manager?

Yes, definitely it happens. Not in old football, but yes in modern football. Normally a manager watches lots of videos and then selects a few and shows them to the players.

There are coaches in Spain that after a 0-4 defeat, as a punnishment, they put the whole video to their squad, so that they feel ashamed and learn the mistakes.

Some keepers reportedly watch strikers in videos, and are able to know where the strikers normally send their penalties, as there are patterns on this. Apparently this was a key factor in the 2005 final against Milan, since Paco Aiestaran is a maniac of videos.

Yeh, definitely they're used.

In the begining of the post red 37 mentioned something about the difference between an out and out striker and an old fashioned centre forward, I hope someone could expand on that.

I'd like someone else ask this question, because I have other words to define strikers, and probably the idea of a classic striker in me, is different to the one of most of my mates

Hope Red37 or someone will answer this.

Also, is there anyway to just look at a player based on size, strength, speed, etc and be able to tell which position the player belongs?

Yes and no

You have right wingers, that beat their markers by speed, to have enough space to put a good cross or enter the box.

Others, have an excellent footwork and flexible waist, and are able to delude their marker making him think that he's going by the right and eventually going by the left.

Others, are not that good dribbling (deluding) but master the kicks with both foot and you can never now what's he's going to do (Normally right wingers are right footed and viceversa).

You have different kind of strikers, slow, but good finnishers, pacy, but somewhat dull finnishing, strenghty strikers who won't be bullied by strong centre backs, and also small and mobile strikers. Some of the strikers are good to be inside the box, others have other abilities and can dribble and shoot from range.

You might think then that the answer is no. But that would be misleading. You need good tacklers in the middle of the pitch and in the defence, you'd want your centre backs being strong, etc.

Also thought the comment on how someone has noticed a change from more specialized positions to more versatile players that are just plain good "footballers". I think that is a very interesting trend because the exact oppposite seems to be happening in other sports (american football, baseball, basketball)

Well , yes and no, again.

Every team would like to have some especialist in some aspects of the game, like Beckham or Ronaldinho are in set pieces. You'd want to have especialists in corners, penalties... but at the same time that players have to have a role in the team as a whole. You cannot have a player only for corners and then him not being able to tackle, pass, cross, develop a counterattack or defend somewhat.

Hope this helps and hope someone else corrects me.

by **66-1112520797** » Sat Apr 14, 2007 1:36 pm

stmichael wrote:I agree with you Stu. I don't like Gerrard as a second striker but it says more about Rafa's opinion of the strikers we do have that he still persists with playing Gerrard there every now and again.

There's no doubt Gerrard is more a centre-midfielder than a centre-forward. But because of the 1-striker system we use on occasions, sometimes the position he's playing in these days looks closer to centre-forward than centre-midfield.

And for me, this means we might be underutilizing half (or more than half) of Gerrard's game: the defensive side.

I say more than half because I personally think he's more effective and complete as a midfielder when he's defending than when he's attacking. His tackling is miles better than his passing in my book.

Now that's a personal opinion and very open to debate, but what's more clear cut is this: Stephen Gerrard's neither exclusively a defensive midfielder or an attacking midfielder. He's both.

Can I just say something here, and I dont intend picking holes.

But St,Mike you have persisted in saying Gerrard isnt disciplined enough to play as a defnsive midfielder. Infact you've said it on numerous occasions, plus you were one of the many advocates insisting Gerrards better on the right.

Now you've just agreed with Stu, while he was banned and before that I and a few others would basically say the same thing. Maye not as well worded and as clear as Stu's point, which IMO is spot on but still enough to get our points accross.

So what side of the fence are you actually on mate, I've met more women who send out LESS mixed messages than you ?

by **stmichael** » Tue Apr 17, 2007 12:23 pm

Bamaga man wrote:
stmichael wrote:I agree with you Stu. I don't like Gerrard as a second striker but it says more about Rafa's opinion of the strikers we do have that he still persists with playing Gerrard there every now and again.

There's no doubt Gerrard is more a centre-midfielder than a centre-forward. But because of the 1-striker system we use on occasions, sometimes the position he's playing in these days looks closer to centre-forward than centre-midfield.

And for me, this means we might be underutilizing half (or more than half) of Gerrard's game: the defensive side.

I say more than half because I personally think he's more effective and complete as a midfielder when he's defending than when he's attacking. His tackling is miles better than his passing in my book.

Now that's a personal opinion and very open to debate, but what's more clear cut is this: Stephen Gerrard's neither exclusively a defensive midfielder or an attacking midfielder. He's both.

Can I just say something here, and I dont intend picking holes.

But St,Mike you have persisted in saying Gerrard isnt disciplined enough to play as a defnsive midfielder. Infact you've said it on numerous occasions, plus you were one of the many advocates insisting Gerrards better on the right.

Now you've just agreed with Stu, while he was banned and before that I and a few others would basically say the same thing. Maye not as well worded and as clear as Stu's point, which IMO is spot on but still enough to get our points accross.

So what side of the fence are you actually on mate, I've met more women who send out LESS mixed messages than you ?

I think as far as the team is concerned, he's better on the right in the big games with the personnel that we have at the moment.

In terms of his discipline in central midfield, it's more to do with the fact that it appeared to have been coached out of him under Rafa. He's a 100mph box to box player who's positioning and anticipation are average at best.

When Benitez first arrived he made a comment about working with Gerrard to reduce the energy he wastes doing the donkey work. With two defensive midfielders in the side I think it's due to orders that Gerrard isn't doing as much of the chasing work. That's my take on that part of the game anyway.

by **Bad Bob** » Thu Apr 19, 2007 2:28 am

Well, I think yesterday's game provides strong evidence in support of Stu's assertions about Gerrard. The 4-5-1 simply does not play to our skipper's strengths--at least not in games (like yesterday's or last Saturday's at Man City) where our opponents sit deep and attempt to soak up pressure. Playing Gerrard just off a loan striker leaves him virtually no room to operate. He barely gets enough touches and then he's put under pressure with very few outlets for the ball.

And, it's not just down to opponents closing him down. One of the big problems yesterday was that Sissoko was getting the ball in positions that Gerrard would have loved to fill. Coming from deeper positions, Sissoko provided an easier target than Gerrard for the wide players, which meant that one of our worst ball carriers and passers was trying to drive the attack forward, usually with disastrous results.

Thank fook Rafa recognized the problem early enough to correct it this time. Hauling Momo off on 55 minutes and reverting to a 4-4-2 was the right move--not because of Kuyt's introduction, but because it allowed Gerrard to drop deeper. From a proper CM position he started getting more touches and he was able to fill space much more effectively--ghosting into gaps between Boro's midfield and attack brilliantly, as the goal illustrated.

So, what have we learned? One conclusion is that 4-5-1 is not the way to play against teams that intend to sit deep and play for the draw. This is primarily because we do not have the personnel needed to break teams down in this formation. Gerrard, as the "in the hole" player does not have the creativity and vision to pick out teammates and play clever 1-2s in tight quarters. Moreover, as Stu often reminds us, he has to sacrifice so much of his natural game in this role and it really influences his level of performance. On the flanks, Pennant is continuing to look the part and has been our most dangerous player when we've played 4-5-1. With Arbeloa in behind, as well, we get a fair amount of joy down the right. The problem is there's no one offering a similar threat on the left flank, which disrupts our balance and makes it easier for defenders to overload our right flank. Up front, both Crouch and Kuyt are willing workers but they, too, don't quite have the skill to work the necessary 1-2s effectively. Moreover, they don't always make the correct runs to get on the end of the crosses coming in from the right.

So, until we have the personnel to play 4-5-1 effectively (i.e. a Riquelme/Aimar type 'string puller', a proper left winger and a striker who knows how to get on the end of crosses and cutbacks), we need to primarily stick to 4-4-2.

by **Scottbot** » Sat May 26, 2007 11:18 am

by **Sabre** » Sun May 27, 2007 1:22 am

Bad Bob thinks

Well, I think yesterday's game provides strong evidence in support of Stu's assertions about Gerrard. The 4-5-1 simply does not play to our skipper's strengths--at least not in games (like yesterday's or last Saturday's at Man City) where our opponents sit deep and attempt to soak up pressure. Playing Gerrard just off a loan striker leaves him virtually no room to operate. He barely gets enough touches and then he's put under pressure with very few outlets for the ball.

I disagree this time.

As I've said many times Steven Gerrard is for me the best footballer and the most valued player of Liverpool Football Club.

The attacking midfielder position is one of the toughest positions in modern football IMHO. As you say the player occupies a zone where the opposition attempt and if job is well done, achieve to establish heavy pressure. He receives the pressure of the oppo holding midfielder and also the oppo centre backs. It requires knowing to play backwards to the goal, use the body to protect ball, first touch is handy and ball control aswell. Only great players can be successful at that position.

Kaka, for instance. He was heavily marked by LFC defensive system and SEEMED to be unnoticed by many fans, but he was crucial twice in the game. Like great players in that position (Kaka, Aimar) do. Gerrard will IMHO be great in that position, despite he could not show it in the final of Athens neither. He just lacked to finish that one on one against Duda to consider his performance brilliant, but he was good in the position.

Many people say that it's a second striker position, but I'd call it attacking midfielder, as the tasks of the two roles have slight differences and Gerrard's role aproaches more to the AM role (at least in a continental way).

Steven Gerrard is the only player who can do this task between lines in the squad. Luis Garcia also can play between lines comfortably, but Steven Gerrard provides extra defensive attributes. He's a perfect player to play that position, he provides the danger of good finishing (what a pity he didn't finish that he had against Duda) , the danger of out of the box shots, he runs a lot without the ball, and he's an excellent tackler. Alongside Mascherano and Alonso, he provides IMHO the best midfield trio of the continent.

The problem with that position is that it's difficult and we don't see Gerrard shining that often, but he's perfect to play it.

Now we need to strenghten upfront and the wings, and LFC we'll be even stronger.

by **Scottbot** » Sun May 27, 2007 11:24 am

Sabre wrote:Steven Gerrard is the only player who can do this task between lines in the squad. Luis Garcia also can play between lines comfortably, but Steven Gerrard provides extra defensive attributes. He's a perfect player to play that position, he provides the danger of good finishing (what a pity he didn't finish that he had against Duda) , the danger of out of the box shots, he runs a lot without the ball, and he's an excellent tackler. Alongside Mascherano and Alonso, he provides IMHO the best midfield trio of the continent.

The problem with that position is that it's difficult and we don't see Gerrard shining that often, but he's perfect to play it.

Now we need to strenghten upfront and the wings, and LFC we'll be even stronger.

He can do it, sure he can. Let's be honest, he could play any position on the pitch with the exception of goal-keeper. The problem i see with Stevie in the hole is that he sees so much less of the ball. Gerrard is a rythym player, the more he sees of the ball the better he gets during a game. He needs and (more importantly) wants to be involved in EVERYTHING within a game and unfortunately that means he only truly plays HAPPY when he's in that central midfield slot. I was a big fan of Stevie out on the right last season (or the season before now!) but his performances dipped on the flank this year and i would like to see Rafa build the team around Steven Gerrard - Central Midfielder. For the paast two years the team has largely been built around Alonso in that he has been the fulcrum of our play BUT that might change next season. The manager seems to trust the captain more these days and if you watch Gerrard's performances this season you will see that he played a far more disciplined game, less cavalier and it was clear he has been trying to win a permanent spot back in the centre.

by **mungi** » Mon May 28, 2007 8:41 am

i think the systems rafa will use next seaosn will largely depend on who he gets in the market. if he gets a player like eto'o rafa will be more comfortable in playing a 4-2-3-1 or 4-3-3 because eto'o is that type of player where he can play 1 up front and players such as gerrard kewell garcia can play off because he process a nice touch which sets him up in good postions to pass. his positioning is also expetional because he gives space to his teamates through his runs. If Rafa gets someone like Villa he might use 4-4-1-1 most of the time with Villa up front and kuyt behind him. This also means Gerrard back in the right midfield with alonso and masherano in the centre. kewell on the left. another alternative if rafa is looking for width is bringing on pennant for alonso or masherano dependiong on the situtation and putting gerrard back in the centre. i think the key is who rafa buys and if kewell and can play for long peroids of time without gettinmg injured. Im sure whatever happens Rafa will know best

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