Liverpool FC Forum

by **ivor_the_injun** » Sat May 19, 2007 11:24 am

I don't know about anyone else, but I keep catching myself having weird, seemingly conflicting thoughts about forthcoming games.

Example: before the Barca and Chelsea CL matches I had my chest puffed out, telling everyone that I was absolutely positive we were going to win.

But then, before games like Blackburn, Fulham and Villa away, I have this "ooooh, no foregone conclusion, this" feeling.

It must just be the lack of confidence around LFC as a league team seeping through in games like this. The team just doesn't radiate confidence, or even the right mentality to just get on a coach and come back with three points. The whole atmosphere around cup nights just seems completely different - as if it's destiny. Whereas, sometimes, you do get the impression that some league matches are just obstacles to negotiate without getting any injuries prior to European nights.

by **66-1112520797** » Sat May 19, 2007 11:29 am

ivor_the_injun wrote:I don't know about anyone else, but I keep catching myself having weird, seemingly conflicting thoughts about forthcoming games.

Example: before the Barca and Chelsea CL matches I had my chest puffed out, telling everyone that I was absolutely positive we were going to win.

But then, before games like Blackburn, Fulham and Villa away, I have this "ooooh, no foregone conclusion, this" feeling.

It must just be the lack of confidence around LFC as a league team seeping through in games like this. The team just doesn't radiate confidence, or even the right mentality to just get on a coach and come back with three points. The whole atmosphere around cup nights just seems completely different - as if it's destiny. Whereas, sometimes, you do get the impression that some league matches are just obstacles to negotiate without getting any injuries prior to European nights.

Good point, I get that feeling to mate. :nod

by **Ciggy** » Sat May 19, 2007 11:32 am

ivor_the_injun wrote:I don't know about anyone else, but I keep catching myself having weird, seemingly conflicting thoughts about forthcoming games.

But then, before games like Blackburn, Fulham and Villa away, I have this "ooooh, no foregone conclusion, this" feeling.
nights.

I know what you mean mate same here same feeling the likes of Fulham, Charlton and the likes cant buy a goal for about 5 or 6 games then beat us.
Maybe the players get this feeling thats why we have had these bad results away from home for years now.
Still no excuse on how we can beat Barca at the Nou Camp and not win at the likes of Craven Cottage I think this is what gets peoples backs up and rightly so.
The blame lies somewhere but we cant just blame Rafa as the same thing has gone on for years and years.
Under Evans, Souness, Houllier and Rafa.

by **redtrader74** » Sat May 19, 2007 11:58 am

We need to ask ourselves some questions about Rafa time here and then assess this season,
Other than Alonso and Reina, has he been able to buy his first choice players?
Did he inherit a very poor sqaud?
Has he achieved in these 3 years more than you expected?(honestly)

No Yes No for me, so i am happy with him and even this season so far. I am a realistic, 3 years to win the most difficult league with what we had is a stupid demand.

I am fed up with this 21 point bollox, don't you lot understand that the title bid was OVER, for a variety of reasons including IMO underestimating our opponents, the last three monthes we have coasted in the league to ensure we continued our CL run, we rested players so dropped points. It makes perfect sense to just consolidate a top four place and try and win the one we can.

The sqaud was just not strong enough and to blame Rafa for that is foolish. Don't bother comparing to other teams, comparison need to be like for like. While we are rebuilding a whole team, the scum are enhancing a settled team, with the addition of one player.

Next season we may be on a level playing field, if the yanks can fund Rafa, then we can start to expect, until then it is only realistic to hope.

by **Scottbot** » Sat May 19, 2007 12:03 pm

supersub wrote:I don't consider it a huge dissappointment to be in the European Cup Final;perhaps the league campaign wasn't brilliant but the week ahead more than makes up for that.

Some sense there. I can't believe that this has been the most popular thread on the board for the past two weeks. I can't see anything past another European Cup Final right now, how can anyone else!? It's only a few days away and i'm absolutely buzzing for this game. Check back to this time two years ago. Was the board full of doom and gloom threads like this inquest? No it wasn't. It was a collection of optimistic, excited posts from a bunch of thankful and disbelieving Liverpool nuts who couldn't quite believe that their team had SOMEHOW reached the Champions League Final. I can't help think that it's all being taken for granted a little this time around. It's a MASSIVE achievment just to get to this final, let alone win it. Yes the league season was an anti-climax particularly given the high hopes we had coming into it but i really can't think about it untill after the final.

by **112-1077774096** » Sat May 19, 2007 12:04 pm

redtrader74 wrote:I am fed up with this 21 point bollox, don't you lot understand that the title bid was OVER, for a variety of reasons including IMO underestimating our opponents, the last three monthes we have coasted in the league

yes the title was over by christmas mate, alowing us to coast in the league.

whether its 21 points or 5 points, the fact is we were never in the race.

but hey heres a novel idea, why not use the games to prove a point rather than rub the fans noses in it with dross performances

am i wrong in thinking pro sport is all about winning rather than allowing yourselves to give up

by **redtrader74** » Sat May 19, 2007 12:14 pm

Ofcourse it is about winning, that is why we are on course for No.6. It is unfortunate but there is a different level of intensity when you know the effort is pointless, even if the decision is not conscious.
Its why west ham managed to win the last game of the season. As far as i am concerned 3rd is the same with 69 or 81 points.

I agree we fecked up the start to the season, but i am not willing to put the blame entirely at Rafas door, before those games i still believed the players chosen would have won.

by **Scottbot** » Sat May 19, 2007 12:18 pm

Ciggy wrote:First off in the summer we have to go out and buy a world class right winger and a better left back than Riise and one world class striker, depending on Harry Kewells fitness and Gonzales rumoured to be heading back to Spain we may possibly need a new left winger also.

I'm not too worried about the right-hand side Lynds. Pennant has slowly but surely played himself into form and for me, he has been (by and large) our most consistent attacking player since the turn of the year. I really hope he starts on Wednesday night because the guy has been on fire recently. He was excellent against Chelsea and you could see we really missed him when he had to go off injured. with Pennant and Stevie i think we're set on the right hand side. It's the left hand side that is the problem. Give me Gamst Pedersen, someone special up-front and someone to give us cover ast full-back and i will be very happy.

by **account deleted by request** » Sat May 19, 2007 1:04 pm

I don't think Rafa "should go " if he doesnt win the title next season or even the season after that. We have a good manager so why change him.(FFS we gave Houllier a contract extention for winning the League cup)

A stubborn manager is not a bad thing, it allows for his ideas to be given time to reach fruition. Unfortunately this involves giving the manager time, how much time is the hard part.

For me Rafa has not proved a disappointment, but our league performances and not challenging this season have been a disappointment. I think BigMick is probably the nearest to my views on our league performance, but I dont think the team is quite as good as Mick does and I dont blame rotation quite as much.

I once said that Rafa needs to prove himself in the transfer market, I still feel this to be the case but overall he has done well (last time I said ok), although hopefully now we have a bit of cash to splash we will start getting his first choices.

The last time we reached the CL Final it was a miracle given the quality of some of our players, this time we have done it with our best players never quite reaching their best level. So Rafa and the squad players should get great credit for this.

Next season I EXPECT a league title challenge, whether this applies undue pressure or not I couldnt give a fk. I dont expect us to start like we did this year and I dont expect to be out of the race by October. If my expectations are dashed and we "only win the CL" I can live with that.

I still don't understand how we can be considered a great European team when we havn't won the Intertoto cup

by **Bad Bob** » Sat May 19, 2007 4:15 pm

s@int wrote:I don't think Rafa "should go " if he doesnt win the title next season or even the season after that. We have a good manager so why change him.(FFS we gave Houllier a contract extention for winning the League cup)

A stubborn manager is not a bad thing, it allows for his ideas to be given time to reach fruition. Unfortunately this involves giving the manager time, how much time is the hard part.

For me Rafa has not proved a disappointment, but our league performances and not challenging this season have been a disappointment. I think BigMick is probably the nearest to my views on our league performance, but I dont think the team is quite as good as Mick does and I dont blame rotation quite as much.

I once said that Rafa needs to prove himself in the transfer market, I still feel this to be the case but overall he has done well (last time I said ok), although hopefully now we have a bit of cash to splash we will start getting his first choices.

The last time we reached the CL Final it was a miracle given the quality of some of our players, this time we have done it with our best players never quite reaching their best level. So Rafa and the squad players should get great credit for this.

Next season I EXPECT a league title challenge, whether this applies undue pressure or not I couldnt give a fk. I dont expect us to start like we did this year and I dont expect to be out of the race by October. If my expectations are dashed and we "only win the CL" I can live with that.

I still don't understand how we can be considered a great European team when we havn't won the Intertoto cup

I'm still right there with you, mate, and I'll just add a few observations based on the last few pages of what's turned into a fascinating thread.

1) You've hit the nail on the head about what it is reasonable to expect, both this season and next. It is reasonable to expect a title challenge from this side given, as Mick's pointed out, this is the same side that dispatched some of Europe's best sides with some degree of comfort this CL campaign. I don't think it's too much to ask of Rafa and the lads to be within sniffing distance of the title by April/May rather than out of it by October. However, expecting to win the title might go a bit too far given the competitiveness of the league. So, 'win us the title or you're out Rafa' is simply an unreasonable ultimatum but, crucially, I haven't seen one person post anything like that--not even in jest. Others have said it but it's worth repeating: there is no "Rafa out" campaign afoot on this board (none that I've read anyway).

2) I think Rafa's had enough success over the last few years to justify his methods and so he's earned the right to be a bit stubborn about squad rotation. After all, he was stubborn with zonal marking and has been proven sound on that count so I don't fault the idea, necessarily. Where it falls short is in terms of the quality of player rotating in when one of our better players is rested. Zenden in for Alonso is not a like for like switch in terms of quality. Now, it might be okay to do if that's the only change but, at times, there have been 4 or 5 of these switches and that takes its toll on the team's fluidity and belief. It also seems to give our opponents a shot in the arm, such that match-ups that still looked comfortable for us on paper give us problems on the pitch. So, will Rafa stop rotating next season? Not a chance and nor should he, if I'm honest. But, I do hope he reigns in the number of changes per game and ensures that the player that is coming in is definitely as committed and hopefully somewhere near as skillful as the one he's replacing. If that can't be ensured, then he'd be better of toning down the rotation and living with the consequences.

3) Beyond Rafa's rotation policy, however, questions need to be raised about the commitment of some our players. I have no doubt that Rafa still expects to win games where he's resting top players but, for some reason, the players coming in and the regulars they are playing with, haven't done the business together this season. I take people's point that the league was all but out of reach by October but that's no excuse for slack performances--especially from players on the margins of the first team. More of the lads could do with taking a page from Hyypia's book. The big man has been unceremoniously ousted from his starting berth this season but has never complained (as far as I'm aware) and has always given his best for the team when he's been handed a start. Can that be said for others? Perhaps not and those are the players that Rafa needs to identify and get rid of because they lack the proper mentality to play for this club. In the case of a few, I'm sure a lack of confidence is the real issue but, unfortunately, we don't have the luxury of playing them into form. One thing's for sure, no one in the squad can say they weren't given a proper opportunity to show Rafa what they can do, given his rotation policy. Those that have failed to grasp their chance have only themselves to blame if they're shown the door this summer.

by **66-1112520797** » Sat May 19, 2007 4:38 pm

Bad Bob wrote:
s@int wrote:I don't think Rafa "should go " if he doesnt win the title next season or even the season after that. We have a good manager so why change him.(FFS we gave Houllier a contract extention for winning the League cup)

A stubborn manager is not a bad thing, it allows for his ideas to be given time to reach fruition. Unfortunately this involves giving the manager time, how much time is the hard part.

For me Rafa has not proved a disappointment, but our league performances and not challenging this season have been a disappointment. I think BigMick is probably the nearest to my views on our league performance, but I dont think the team is quite as good as Mick does and I dont blame rotation quite as much.

I once said that Rafa needs to prove himself in the transfer market, I still feel this to be the case but overall he has done well (last time I said ok), although hopefully now we have a bit of cash to splash we will start getting his first choices.

The last time we reached the CL Final it was a miracle given the quality of some of our players, this time we have done it with our best players never quite reaching their best level. So Rafa and the squad players should get great credit for this.

Next season I EXPECT a league title challenge, whether this applies undue pressure or not I couldnt give a fk. I dont expect us to start like we did this year and I dont expect to be out of the race by October. If my expectations are dashed and we "only win the CL" I can live with that.

I still don't understand how we can be considered a great European team when we havn't won the Intertoto cup

I'm still right there with you, mate, and I'll just add a few observations based on the last few pages of what's turned into a fascinating thread.

1) You've hit the nail on the head about what it is reasonable to expect, both this season and next. It is reasonable to expect a title challenge from this side given, as Mick's pointed out, this is the same side that dispatched some of Europe's best sides with some degree of comfort this CL campaign. I don't think it's too much to ask of Rafa and the lads to be within sniffing distance of the title by April/May rather than out of it by October. However, expecting to win the title might go a bit too far given the competitiveness of the league. So, 'win us the title or you're out Rafa' is simply an unreasonable ultimatum but, crucially, I haven't seen one person post anything like that--not even in jest. Others have said it but it's worth repeating: there is no "Rafa out" campaign afoot on this board (none that I've read anyway).

2) I think Rafa's had enough success over the last few years to justify his methods and so he's earned the right to be a bit stubborn about squad rotation. After all, he was stubborn with zonal marking and has been proven sound on that count so I don't fault the idea, necessarily. Where it falls short is in terms of the quality of player rotating in when one of our better players is rested. Zenden in for Alonso is not a like for like switch in terms of quality. Now, it might be okay to do if that's the only change but, at times, there have been 4 or 5 of these switches and that takes its toll on the team's fluidity and belief. It also seems to give our opponents a shot in the arm, such that match-ups that still looked comfortable for us on paper give us problems on the pitch. So, will Rafa stop rotating next season? Not a chance and nor should he, if I'm honest. But, I do hope he reigns in the number of changes per game and ensures that the player that is coming in is definitely as committed and hopefully somewhere near as skillful as the one he's replacing. If that can't be ensured, then he'd be better of toning down the rotation and living with the consequences.

3) Beyond Rafa's rotation policy, however, questions need to be raised about the commitment of some our players. I have no doubt that Rafa still expects to win games where he's resting top players but, for some reason, the players coming in and the regulars they are playing with, haven't done the business together this season. I take people's point that the league was all but out of reach by October but that's no excuse for slack performances--especially from players on the margins of the first team. More of the lads could do with taking a page from Hyypia's book. The big man has been unceremoniously ousted from his starting berth this season but has never complained (as far as I'm aware) and has always given his best for the team when he's been handed a start. Can that be said for others? Perhaps not and those are the players that Rafa needs to identify and get rid of because they lack the proper mentality to play for this club. In the case of a few, I'm sure a lack of confidence is the real issue but, unfortunately, we don't have the luxury of playing them into form. One thing's for sure, no one in the squad can say they weren't given a proper opportunity to show Rafa what they can do, given his rotation policy. Those that have failed to grasp their chance have only themselves to blame if they're shown the door this summer.

Nice post Bob.

All of what you've said there is pretty much spot on and valid IMO. On subject of rotation, and like you said " dont expect Rafa to stop" but like you I think its the number of changes per game. If he were to limit it to one or maybe two every now and then, thats fine IMO or of course where injuries are a concern. But if he does continue with 4-5 players being rotated every other game, I'll go on record now and say it wont win you the title or give you a cat in hells chance.

Claudio Ranaire 'tinkered' with his squad, I think he had the personel at Chelsea to win the league, and I think that was his ultimate downfall.

Although Rafa is 'stubborn' and in all honesty its paid off where his critics stand especially Andy fecking gray and his nonsense on zonal marking, is great, and amongst other things. I really think a little less tinkering and like you said a much better mindset for the players coming in we may just reep the rewards.

In saying that though, how many times does Gerrard or Carragher get rotated. They dont much, maybe if Rafa had players of their inspiration and quality in other positions around the pitch maybe he wouldnt feel the need to rotate as much.

by **LFC2007** » Sat May 19, 2007 4:51 pm

On the point of rotation, I think to a small degree Rafa has been forced to rotate due to the lack of solidity/consistency shown from players such as Pennant and Gonzales.

Like I said earlier if we'd had a Robben or Ronaldo I'm sure Gerrard would have been playing in the centre much more, particularly away from home when playing the likes of Pennant and Gonzales is more of a risk. I think that is one of the reasons why our away form has been so poor, maybe if we had Kewell fit part of this problem may have been solved. I still feel however well Pennant has played at home and in the latter part of the season, that his weaknesses in terms of pace, power and strength were reasons why Gerrard was switched to the right instead (particularly away from home), Rafa would prefer to have a solid line up, one with solidity in the centre but also with solidity on the wings aswell.

Although Cristiano Ronaldo or Arjen Robben aren't the most solid players defensively I feel they have the pace, strength and ability to harry players that Pennant lacks in comparison.

by **RedBlood** » Sat May 19, 2007 5:24 pm

why start a depressing thread like this so close to what could be a massive game
its stupidity nobody is saying our league form and defeats to arsenal were anything but poor but thats history now lets look forward to beating milan in athens

by **LFC2007** » Sat May 19, 2007 5:49 pm

Because all of us want Liverpool to do well, we all want success, we can analyse, but that takes NOTHING away from the final. We're all up for Wednesday and I can't bloody wait but this thread is just us showing how much we want success in the league aswell.

by **RedBlood** » Sat May 19, 2007 6:09 pm

i see what your saying but i just think there is a time and place for such discussions

i.e after we beat milan

p.s drogbaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!!!!!!!!!!! no double this time for the mancs

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