Liverpool FC Forum

by **yckatbjywtbiastkamb** » Sat May 19, 2007 1:14 am

s@int wrote:So its unrealistic to expect to win at Sheff U, at Everton(who can only dream of spending what we have)at Bolton etc etc ?

I honestly believe we had the team to mount a challenge this season, the problem was we didn't start to play untill the chance was gone. The Mancs showed that you cant afford to get stuck in the starting gate, you have to make a decent start. We didn't this season, and we didn't last season. Last season we would have won the League if the season had started at the end of October (unfortunately it didn't)

you say everton can only dream of spending what we have spent but that works both ways, we can only dream of spending 30m on a forward like man u did with rooney and 30 odd mill like chelsea did with shevchenko.
united have spent double our transfer record plus another 2 million on top of that on one, i repeat one centre half.
in recent times united have spent 18m on carrick, 26m on veron, 19m on van nistelrooy, a world record fee for a teenager in ronaldo, then another world record fee for a teenager in rooney..........and chelsea have upped the ante even more.
coming third over a long season to that type of spending power is no shame, especially if you can knock them out of the cups along the way, and especially if you`ve only been in the job 3 years.

by **account deleted by request** » Sat May 19, 2007 1:16 am

Last season we actually got less points against the other top 4 sides than this year, so its against the teams that HAVEN'T spent as much as we have that we have failed this year. Having said that there is only Chelsea spent more than us this season.

by **yckatbjywtbiastkamb** » Sat May 19, 2007 1:21 am

s@int wrote:Last season we actually got less points against the other top 4 sides than this year, so its against the teams that HAVEN'T spent as much as we have that we have failed this year. Having said that there is only Chelsea spent more than us this season.

looking at it season to season doesnt prove anything, its a fact that over the last 5 to 10 years united and chelsea have absolutley blown us away in terms of spending on their squad.

by **account deleted by request** » Sat May 19, 2007 1:27 am

Which is back to where I came in. We came 3rd, one point behind the Mancs (who we should have beaten away but for Cisse's miss) Spent more than them and finish 21 points behind them, having been out of the title race by October. League season a disappointment.

by **yckatbjywtbiastkamb** » Sat May 19, 2007 1:36 am

s@int wrote:Which is back to where I came in. We came 3rd, one point behind the Mancs (who we should have beaten away but for Cisse's miss) Spent more than them and finish 21 points behind them, having been out of the title race by October. League season a disappointment.

this is getting ridiculous but maybe you havent taken into consideration that united bought two of the best young players on the planet, and this season, as all young players do, they developed.
they developed into very, very good players, infact one particular player who was once thought of as a show pony who dived too much developed into in popular opinion ( but not mine) along with kaka one of the two best players on the planet.
we may have spent more than them in one summer but when ferguson invests mega money in top young talent the season before he doesnt need to spend much, he just has to sit back and let it grow.

by **Sabre** » Sat May 19, 2007 1:44 am

Nice discussion.

There are things that are difficult to find agreements, because "disappointment" is a feeling that changes in every person. Some athletes will think when they get a bronze medal that it's nice to be the third of the world. Other athletes will be angry because there are two better athletes, and trying to agree what's dissapointing and not is very complicated because of that.

As for the new owners, at least with their words, they seem to have put confidence in Rafa and that might mean they're not dissapointed but hopeful that Rafa will bring the league title. Rafa's refusal to go to his home club Real Madrid, in the other hand, proves he thinks that with the new owners his project can be succesful.

As for the crowd, and as much as they cheer and support almost anybody in the club, the fact that they can be singing Rafa's songs including La Bamba (not my favourite) for minutes, suggests me that are quite happy with him aswell.

It's only fair that other supporters or part of the crowd are dissapointed though. There was some points in the nineties that when I put my finger in the standings table I was dissapointed to see where Liverpool was.

Being dissapointed when taking decissions can be good and bad. It can be good because it prevents from complacency and helps to be a better team everyday. It can be bad, because it can take you to take bad decissions like droping players that can be good enough for the future just because you're dissapointed at the time to take decissions.

For me, the best thing to take good decissions is to leave sentiments aside, and leave sentiments and passion for the pitch, where they're really useful, both in the players and the crowd.

by **LFC2007** » Sat May 19, 2007 1:45 am

Judging the mancs is an entriely different kettle of fish, they've spent less, but not much less, and their existing players have gone on a level, not to mention scholes being fit, Giggs performing outstanding at his age and a squad depth that we don't have. They are a side that has developed togther for a few years, the new players like Rooney, Ronaldo, Vidic, Evra, Van der saar, Heinze, Saha and Smith have been playing together for two years solid. We have not had a settled squad for the length of time they have had, Kuyt and Bellamy have been here for one season. They also have a manager who is far more experienced in this division, a manager who took 4 years to win the title.

by **account deleted by request** » Sat May 19, 2007 1:46 am

this is getting ridiculous but maybe you havent taken into consideration that united bought two of the best young players on the planet, and this season, as all young players do, they developed.
they developed into very, very good players, infact one particular player who was once thought of as a show pony who dived too much developed into in popular opinion ( but not mine) along with kaka one of the two best players on the planet.
we may have spent more than them in one summer but when ferguson invests mega money in top young talent the season before he doesnt need to spend much, he just has to sit back and let it grow.

So we should just forget the league until Ronaldo and Rooney are too old to play? I also remember that we had first go at Ronaldo and didn't sign him, we went for the better options Diouf then Cisse. (Thank you Phil)

I am not saying Rafa is a bad manager, hes done great in the cups but he has disappointed me in the league. I expected a title challenge this season. Maybe you didn't. Maybe you think less of the players than I do. I thought we had the quality to at least mount a challenge, obviously you dont.

by **Bad Bob** » Sat May 19, 2007 1:57 am

I have to agree with Saint here. What's let us down this season is our performance against the teams below us rather than the teams above us. We had that sorted last season but have gone backwards this season. We are simply too talented a team to be dropping so many points to the likes of Everton, Blackburn, Bolton, Portsmouth, Newcastle, Boro, Villa, Fulham, Shef United etc. I remember how f.ucked off everyone was after we lost at Arsenal and all the talk was about our pitiful performances against the Big Three. Since then we've beaten Arsenal and Chelsea at home, and were robbed by the Mancs. As Saint's pointed out, that's more than we got out of these fixtures last season. Yet, we've really taken our eye off the ball when it comes to playing the lesser lights of the league. Next season, we need to find away not just to stand toe to toe with the Mancs, Chelsea and Arsenal when we play them--we also need to be mullering the teams below us if we want to challenge.

by **yckatbjywtbiastkamb** » Sat May 19, 2007 1:59 am

s@int wrote:
this is getting ridiculous but maybe you havent taken into consideration that united bought two of the best young players on the planet, and this season, as all young players do, they developed.
they developed into very, very good players, infact one particular player who was once thought of as a show pony who dived too much developed into in popular opinion ( but not mine) along with kaka one of the two best players on the planet.
we may have spent more than them in one summer but when ferguson invests mega money in top young talent the season before he doesnt need to spend much, he just has to sit back and let it grow.

So we should just forget the league until Ronaldo and Rooney are too old to play? I also remember that we had first go at Ronaldo and didn't sign him, we went for the better options Diouf then Cisse. (Thank you Phil)

I am not saying Rafa is a bad manager, hes done great in the cups but he has disappointed me in the league. I expected a title challenge this season. Maybe you didn't. Maybe you think less of the players than I do. I thought we had the quality to at least mount a challenge, obviously you dont.

no mate, in jamie carragher and especially steven gerrard i`m watching 2 of the best players i`ve ever seen pull on a red shirt, but i also know i`ve been watching them since 1975 and i`ve never seen a worse liverpool side so devoid of confidence as the one houllier left to benitez.
i just dont expect a man to turn around the worst side i`ve seen in 30 years into probably one of the best in 3 years.

by **Redstavro** » Sat May 19, 2007 2:01 am

well what happens if we dont win the title next season do we look for a new manager then.

by **Penguins** » Sat May 19, 2007 2:02 am

Well, manure was lacking any kind of midfield last season.
No Carrick, no Scholes. had to play O'Shea and Fletcher as 1st team in the centre midfield and they still got 2nd.
They have spent 28 on rooney, 30 in ferdinand, 19 on Rvn, 26 on Veron. Should I go on?
Oh, we did spend 14 million on a flop, but still our record fee!!!
14 MILLION is pocket change for our rivals.
Ferg has had time to add 1 or 2 TOP quality players each seasons and build up continuity. Which means that by adding Carrick for 18 million(average utd signing fee) and getting Scholes back they got a completly new centre midfield.
And plz, just cause Ronaldo the diver was in the squad last season, it was still like a new signing.
Benitez doesn't have the money, time or quality in the squad to be allowed to buy 1-2 TOP class players for around 20 million each. He has to buy 5-6 players cause what was in the squad has not been good enough. And never his 1st time choices cause god forbid, they might cost 15 million+ each.

Fergie has got to 1 CL final ever in 20 years while been given all the players he has wanted.
Rafa inherited Diao, Traore, Biscan, Cheyrou and a dissillusioned squad. In 3 years he still got us to 2 CL finals.
Only Carra and Gerrard (to some degree Finnan and Risse)
could play a part in a title winning team when rafa arrived.
This means getting rid of and replacing over 20 players.
This with a budget less than Houllier had each year.

And I don't even want to start with Chelski and the hundreds of millions they have spent during the last 5 years.
But hey, they have no history like us so they are no threat??
It doesn't work like that. the league is a marathon where tactical brilliance and moments of brilliance won't get u anywhere.

Money talks and if you got world class offensive talent in this league to break down opponent defenses you have a great chance to get the goals and win.

So we've had Gonzales and Pennant this season on the flanks and Kuyt, Crouch up top. Around a staggering 25 million spent to unlock defenses and create chances.

And now our rivals...

manure... Oh, Rooney breaks what we spent on our whole attackforce. But around 55 million spent to unlock defenses and create chances.

And Chelski. Oh, Drogba cost alone what we've on our whole attackforce. But around 80 million spent to unluck defenses and create chances.

But this isn't what some want to see. much better to close your eyes and ears and go on with the "the title must be our cause we are Liverpool".

it has never been harder to win the league than now and still there is Arsenal with a new stadium and Spurs who spend as much as we do and Newcastle who are ambitious and have spent almost as much as us the least few years.
With the funds given to Rafa he has overachived like crazy and got fantastic results taking out Chelski twice in the CL and Manure out of the FA cup.

But no one wants to be realistic. Where's the fun in that?

by **LFC2007** » Sat May 19, 2007 2:10 am

I think everyone's in consensus with what you've said Bob, but like I pointed out earlier had we been playing for something three months ago, we may have beaten the likes of Villa, Man city, Portsmouth, Fulham and Charlton. Had we won all of these we would have exceeded our total from last season by 4 points. I think Rafa was wise to focus all our efforts on the Champions League once a realistic title challenge had gone, that is not to say we shouldn't have won these games, I am just pointing out that we were only playing for a top four finish, whilst at the same time preparing as best we can and resting players for the most important games in the CL.

I agree that games against the likes of everton, blackburn and middlesbrough prior to that were ones that were a comparitive 'backwards step' compared with last season.

But later on after the title challenge had gone we were playing for virtually nothing and at the same time focussing on the CL, then the likelihood is that we aren't going to get as many points as last season.

I do believe we lack the auto-win mode that the top two have when they travel away to the lesser sides, but in terms of last season I don't think the difference is massive.

by **account deleted by request** » Sat May 19, 2007 2:17 am

yckatbjywtbiastkamb wrote:
s@int wrote:
this is getting ridiculous but maybe you havent taken into consideration that united bought two of the best young players on the planet, and this season, as all young players do, they developed.
they developed into very, very good players, infact one particular player who was once thought of as a show pony who dived too much developed into in popular opinion ( but not mine) along with kaka one of the two best players on the planet.
we may have spent more than them in one summer but when ferguson invests mega money in top young talent the season before he doesnt need to spend much, he just has to sit back and let it grow.

So we should just forget the league until Ronaldo and Rooney are too old to play? I also remember that we had first go at Ronaldo and didn't sign him, we went for the better options Diouf then Cisse. (Thank you Phil)

I am not saying Rafa is a bad manager, hes done great in the cups but he has disappointed me in the league. I expected a title challenge this season. Maybe you didn't. Maybe you think less of the players than I do. I thought we had the quality to at least mount a challenge, obviously you dont.

no mate, in jamie carragher and especially steven gerrard i`m watching 2 of the best players i`ve ever seen pull on a red shirt, but i also know i`ve been watching them since 1975 and i`ve never seen a worse liverpool side so devoid of confidence as the one houllier left to benitez.
i just dont expect a man to turn around the worst side i`ve seen in 30 years into probably one of the best in 3 years.

How many of that "worst side in 30 years" played in the CL Final? That worst side in 30 years came 4th in the league, and had more than one or two great players in it.

So it wasn't THAT bad. Admittedly it wasnt THAT good either, but I expected us to be mounting a challenge this season,we didn't and so I am disappointed. You obviously expected us not to challange as we havent spent as much money as the Mancs and Chavs. If your happy with our league form thats great, but allow me to be disappointed.

Aim for the sky and you'll reach the ceiling. Aim for the ceiling and you'll stay on the floor.
Bill Shankly

by **yckatbjywtbiastkamb** » Sat May 19, 2007 2:32 am

s@int wrote:
yckatbjywtbiastkamb wrote:
s@int wrote:
this is getting ridiculous but maybe you havent taken into consideration that united bought two of the best young players on the planet, and this season, as all young players do, they developed.
they developed into very, very good players, infact one particular player who was once thought of as a show pony who dived too much developed into in popular opinion ( but not mine) along with kaka one of the two best players on the planet.
we may have spent more than them in one summer but when ferguson invests mega money in top young talent the season before he doesnt need to spend much, he just has to sit back and let it grow.

So we should just forget the league until Ronaldo and Rooney are too old to play? I also remember that we had first go at Ronaldo and didn't sign him, we went for the better options Diouf then Cisse. (Thank you Phil)

I am not saying Rafa is a bad manager, hes done great in the cups but he has disappointed me in the league. I expected a title challenge this season. Maybe you didn't. Maybe you think less of the players than I do. I thought we had the quality to at least mount a challenge, obviously you dont.

no mate, in jamie carragher and especially steven gerrard i`m watching 2 of the best players i`ve ever seen pull on a red shirt, but i also know i`ve been watching them since 1975 and i`ve never seen a worse liverpool side so devoid of confidence as the one houllier left to benitez.
i just dont expect a man to turn around the worst side i`ve seen in 30 years into probably one of the best in 3 years.

How many of that "worst side in 30 years" played in the CL Final? That worst side in 30 years came 4th in the league, and had more than one or two great players in it.

So it wasn't THAT bad. Admittedly it wasnt THAT good either, but I expected us to be mounting a challenge this season,we didn't and so I am disappointed. You obviously expected us not to challange as we havent spent as much money as the Mancs and Chavs. If your happy with our league form thats great, but allow me to be disappointed.

that side came 5th in the league, and the only reason they won the european cup was because in the short time benitez had them he installed some self belief into them, something houllier sucked out of them.
under houllier a liverpool side hadnt turned around a 1 goal deficit in any competition in over 2 years. 2 years!!
you honestly think they would have come back from 3 down under houllier against watford never mind milan or olympiacos.
thats why i think benitez is so good, because i`m convinced ferguson nor mourinho nor wenger or anybody could have won the champions league with that team.
be dissapointed all you want mate thats your choice, but i`m beyond that `how come we aint winning the league` phase, in fact i grew out of that about 95 / 96.
now i`m just grateful for any success and i`m very grateful that fate has given us a manager like rafa benitez whom i believe given time will bring the league back to anfield.

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