Liverpool FC Forum

by **Rafa D** » Fri May 18, 2007 11:12 pm

redtrader74 wrote:
Rafa-Dodd wrote:I can't think of one other manager I would want in charge of my club right now.

That speaks volumes.

Well you are an authority on football

I just spat coffee all over the computer screen.

Cheers mate

by **account deleted by request** » Fri May 18, 2007 11:26 pm

yckatbjywtbiastkamb wrote:
s@int wrote:
yckatbjywtbiastkamb wrote:
s@int wrote:
LFC2007 wrote:
peewee wrote:
LFC2007 wrote:the greatest European Cup final win of all time, the greatest FA cup win of all time and another European Cup final.

and they were the greatest finals because we let both teams put three past us, neither final win was convincing

The convincing finals are never the best, at least Rafa got us there, and got us there with an incredibly depleted squad against some of the best teams in Europe.

Under Houllier we probably a) wouldn't have got there in the first place and b) probably wouldn't have come back from 3 down against AC Milan.

I dont think anyone is trying to say Houllier was a great manager, which is why we are so disappointed that our league positions arn't much better under Benitez.

We never won the Cl under Shankly but no one doubts he was a great manager...... because he won League titles.

I don't doubt Benitez mate, I just wish he would hurry up

shanks won 3 league titles in 15 years, 4 if you count the second division title.
that total when compared to the amount of titles managers like paisley and ferguson won is not really a lot but the man is almost a christ like figure to reds and do you know why?
because back then reds fans had perspective and didnt expect a lot.
shankly took a struggling second division outfit and turned it into a major player in england and europe and reds fans were grateful, they didnt say `why arent we winning the league every year` like fans these days.
if rafa had acheived what he has in front of the fans of the late 50`s / 60`s / early 70`s he would be hero worshipped the same as shanks, its only because this generation of fans are never happy.
they see winning the league as acceptable rather than great success.

This generation of fans has never even seen Liverpool as League Champions, so you can't blame them for being impatient. I started watching liverpool in 1968 and it was 1973 before I had the pleasure (I had seen them lift it in '66 but only on tv) so I had a 6 year wait. The young/not so young fans of today have been waiting 17 years and more.

The only difference being they have seen Liverpool winning trophys in the last 17 years whereas Liverpool didn't even win an egg cup from 68 - 73.

However every season I expected a title challenge, just as I do now, even in the dire years 69/70 and 70/71. Maybe because we had a manager who had been there and bought the tea-shirt we were more patient.

well dont you think rafa deserves a bit of a break?
as you say the great shanks who had been manager for 9 years won nothing for the following five years, a period i might add where united had their best, law, charlton side and everton their ball, kendall and harvey side (a nightmare for most reds, both their arch rivals the best teams in the land) but you`d never hear ultimatums like i`ve read on this forum regarding shanks position.
in my eyes rafa has done more given what he took over than any other manager in history could have done, i really mean that.
you only have to look at the likes of gerrard to see how good rafa is.
rafa has never lavished him with praise or sucked up to him like houllier did and rafa has played him out of his favourite position for most of the time but gerrard cant wait to sign, and neither can most of the squad.
rafa emits calm confidence like a lighthouse shines light.

I have made no ultimatums, I have not said its next season or else, I have not said Rafa is cr@p I have not said ANYTHING other than HE HAS YET TO PROVE HIMSELF IN THE PREM.

FFS its getting beyond a joke now, I say Alonso has a had a poor season and people are saying its disgraceful wanting to sell Alonso. I NEVER SAID SELL ALONSO.

I say Liverpool have disappointed me in the league and people start talking about ultimatums. I NEVER GAVE AN ULTIMATUM.

If people want to defend Rafa's league performances ... defend them, if you are happy to come 3rd great. I think we could have done better, THAT DOESN'T MEAN i THINK WE SHOULD SACK HIM. That means I think we could have challenged for the title this season.

by **Sabre** » Fri May 18, 2007 11:32 pm

bigmick wrote:I guess where I differ from most posters is not on my opinion of Rafa. I too think he's done an unbeieveable job and is absolutely the right man to lead Liverpool. His achievements visa-vis the Champions League where we have reached two finals and but for one bad performance last season could have gone close again, are absolutely staggering.

The main area in which I differ from almost every poster on here it seems to me, is that I think we are MUCH better than pretty much all the prople who offer their opinion son this forum. I don't accept that we can't unlock defences, nor do I accept that the top two are miles ahead of us as seems to be the consensus. I don't accept either that we need four or five World-class players to win the Premeirship.

I think we have more than enough quality in the final third to mount a title challenge, and I think our squad is strong enough. Yes we haven't got a Christiano Ronaldo, nor a Rooney or a Drogba. Also we don't attack with the same fluency of these teams but there is more than one way to skin a cat. If we can consistently compete with and beat the best teams in Europe Home and Away, which we undoubtedly can and do, then I'm sorry but the sentiment that we don't posess enough guile to break down Aston Villa's defence, or Man City's just doesn't wash with me. What we lack is the intent, the desire to go there and not just beat them but to smash them to pieces. If we went there needing to win by two clear goals to bring home the title I'd put my life on us at least winning the game as we'd swarm all over them. Not in the same way as Man Utd do with Ronaldo and Rooney, or Chelsea do with Drogba and anyone else who can run fast enought to get underneath the up and under, but in our own way. I don't accept that we don't have the quality, NOW to not mount a title challenge.

This is probably why, when I vehemently criticise our tossing away any chance of challenging for the title in the first dozen games of the season with a combination of silly selection/formation/positional rotations and a distinct lack of offensive intent, I get so hot and bothered over it. I know I'm probably in a minority of one here, but I think we were good enough this season to have had a real go in the league. THAT'S why it's so disappointing, and our success in Europe effectively confirms the impression that we actually ain't a bad team, and therefore makes it worse.

Like Ivor the Injun and you, I also rate highly Liverpool Football Club's players.

Some members asked me in private before the Barcelona game what were our real chances to beat them, and they'll remember I told them that defensively we do the best stuff of Europe, and football is a game in which keeping your goal safe is very important.

The only but I'll put to LFC nowadays is: Is our squad deep enough for a competition like the league? At some point this season we had to play Zenden and, correct me if I'm wrong, Carraguer as a holding midfielder to face a game. That kind of limitations in the squad are very complicated.

I think it was redtrader who the other day compared us with the other teams, and the archenemies had a list of 6 well known midfielders in which the worse one was the ex Betis player Denilson, a bloody Brazil international in it's time. That's to have more depth than having to use Zenden as a centre midfielder, and that's important.

by **Rafa D** » Fri May 18, 2007 11:51 pm

s@int wrote:I have made no ultimatums, I have not said its next season or else, I have not said Rafa is cr@p I have not said ANYTHING other than HE HAS YET TO PROVE HIMSELF IN THE PREM.

FFS its getting beyond a joke now, I say Alonso has a had a poor season and people are saying its disgraceful wanting to sell Alonso. I NEVER SAID SELL ALONSO.

I say Liverpool have disappointed me in the league and people start talking about ultimatums. I NEVER GAVE AN ULTIMATUM.

If people want to defend Rafa's league performances ... defend them, if you are happy to come 3rd great. I think we could have done better, THAT DOESN'T MEAN i THINK WE SHOULD SACK HIM. That means I think we could have challenged for the title this season.

S@ints GOING NUTS

I know what your saying mate

by **metalhead** » Fri May 18, 2007 11:51 pm

I actually agree with Peewee's "not good enough" remark. Lets be realistic, we are out of depth and we are relying more on quantity rather than quality.

We can't afford to buy average players, we need quality players that will at least compete for the title. I think Kuyt, pennant and aurelio will be good enough to win us the league, but time will tell.

It has been a dissapointing season! a huge step backwards, just compare it to last season!!! We didn't look at all as title contenders this year and Liverpool Football Club should be a title contender. We shouldn't only concentrate on one trophy, but we should concentrate on all trophies!

I still believe Rafa will do it right, im confident this summer will be a success in the transfer market, hopefully rafa will get the players he really wants and not his 2nd targets or last resort targets. The new owner has already shown that they don't waste time on buying players(i.e lucas).

Another note, maybe rafa is too patient! he is a patient man!

by **yckatbjywtbiastkamb** » Fri May 18, 2007 11:58 pm

s@int wrote:
yckatbjywtbiastkamb wrote:
s@int wrote:
yckatbjywtbiastkamb wrote:
s@int wrote:
LFC2007 wrote:
peewee wrote:
LFC2007 wrote:the greatest European Cup final win of all time, the greatest FA cup win of all time and another European Cup final.

and they were the greatest finals because we let both teams put three past us, neither final win was convincing

The convincing finals are never the best, at least Rafa got us there, and got us there with an incredibly depleted squad against some of the best teams in Europe.

Under Houllier we probably a) wouldn't have got there in the first place and b) probably wouldn't have come back from 3 down against AC Milan.

I dont think anyone is trying to say Houllier was a great manager, which is why we are so disappointed that our league positions arn't much better under Benitez.

We never won the Cl under Shankly but no one doubts he was a great manager...... because he won League titles.

I don't doubt Benitez mate, I just wish he would hurry up

shanks won 3 league titles in 15 years, 4 if you count the second division title.
that total when compared to the amount of titles managers like paisley and ferguson won is not really a lot but the man is almost a christ like figure to reds and do you know why?
because back then reds fans had perspective and didnt expect a lot.
shankly took a struggling second division outfit and turned it into a major player in england and europe and reds fans were grateful, they didnt say `why arent we winning the league every year` like fans these days.
if rafa had acheived what he has in front of the fans of the late 50`s / 60`s / early 70`s he would be hero worshipped the same as shanks, its only because this generation of fans are never happy.
they see winning the league as acceptable rather than great success.

This generation of fans has never even seen Liverpool as League Champions, so you can't blame them for being impatient. I started watching liverpool in 1968 and it was 1973 before I had the pleasure (I had seen them lift it in '66 but only on tv) so I had a 6 year wait. The young/not so young fans of today have been waiting 17 years and more.

The only difference being they have seen Liverpool winning trophys in the last 17 years whereas Liverpool didn't even win an egg cup from 68 - 73.

However every season I expected a title challenge, just as I do now, even in the dire years 69/70 and 70/71. Maybe because we had a manager who had been there and bought the tea-shirt we were more patient.

well dont you think rafa deserves a bit of a break?
as you say the great shanks who had been manager for 9 years won nothing for the following five years, a period i might add where united had their best, law, charlton side and everton their ball, kendall and harvey side (a nightmare for most reds, both their arch rivals the best teams in the land) but you`d never hear ultimatums like i`ve read on this forum regarding shanks position.
in my eyes rafa has done more given what he took over than any other manager in history could have done, i really mean that.
you only have to look at the likes of gerrard to see how good rafa is.
rafa has never lavished him with praise or sucked up to him like houllier did and rafa has played him out of his favourite position for most of the time but gerrard cant wait to sign, and neither can most of the squad.
rafa emits calm confidence like a lighthouse shines light.

I have made no ultimatums, I have not said its next season or else, I have not said Rafa is cr@p I have not said ANYTHING other than HE HAS YET TO PROVE HIMSELF IN THE PREM.

FFS its getting beyond a joke now, I say Alonso has a had a poor season and people are saying its disgraceful wanting to sell Alonso. I NEVER SAID SELL ALONSO.

I say Liverpool have disappointed me in the league and people start talking about ultimatums. I NEVER GAVE AN ULTIMATUM.

If people want to defend Rafa's league performances ... defend them, if you are happy to come 3rd great. I think we could have done better, THAT DOESN'T MEAN i THINK WE SHOULD SACK HIM. That means I think we could have challenged for the title this season.

i never said YOU gave ultimatums but i`ve read them on these boards and i havent a clue what your opinion on alonso is.
but if you have sat through the latter part of daglish`s reign, all of souness reign, all of evans reign, all of evans and houlliers reign and all of houlliers reign then you know this club was never good enough to win the title, or even a lot of the time to qualify, never mind win, the champions league.
a man takes over the reigns when we are at our lowest ebb since 1959 and within 3 years finishes 3rd above arsenal twice and gets to 2 champions league finals, an f.a cup final and a league cup final.
you say he is yet to prove himself in the prem, what constitutes proof to you? winning it? you expect that in the first 3 years as well?
you dont ask for much do you saint?

by **account deleted by request** » Sat May 19, 2007 12:04 am

you say he is yet to prove himself in the prem, what constitutes proof to you? winning it? you expect that in the first 3 years as well?
you dont ask for much do you saint?

I expect a realistic challenge, for our challenge not to be over in October but to be there or there abouts in May. I don't think thats too much to ask of this team.

Maybe you think its acceptable to have no chance of winning the league in October but I dont.

by **yckatbjywtbiastkamb** » Sat May 19, 2007 12:17 am

s@int wrote:
you say he is yet to prove himself in the prem, what constitutes proof to you? winning it? you expect that in the first 3 years as well?
you dont ask for much do you saint?

I expect a realistic challenge, for our challenge not to be over in October but to be there or there abouts in May. I don't think thats too much to ask of this team.

Maybe you think its acceptable to have no chance of winning the league in October but I dont.

i`m not going to lie to you and say i was made up to see the likes of fowler playing at sheffield united first game this season, i think benitez underestimated them, and we paid the price.
but in that bad run of games that took the title away from us it wasnt all down to rafa, for a start we played all our main rivals at a period were our form was rubbish but bad luck played a part.
we lost away at chelsea to a wonder strike from drogba, we were the better team on the day and kuyt really should have scored when he hit the crossbar, gerrard missed a sitter when they were down to 10 men too.
the goodison derby was a farce, the first goal finnan was blocked off american footy style, the second carra makes his first mistake in about 3 years and the 3rd reina f**ks up, but in between that we dominated possesion and hit the inside of the post twice and had a blatant pen turned down.
man u at old trafford f**ked us - no excuses there.
that run of games was enough to see us out of the title race.
we are not a million miles away, and i have more confidence in rafa than any other manager since paisley and i include daglish.

by **Scottbot** » Sat May 19, 2007 12:25 am

s@int wrote:I expect a realistic challenge, for our challenge not to be over in October but to be there or there abouts in May. I don't think thats too much to ask of this team.

Maybe you think its acceptable to have no chance of winning the league in October but I dont.

It's a totally fair point Saint but what is crazy with this league over the last few seasons is the fact that if you lose 2 of your first 3 games (as an example) you put yourself under enormous pressure because just a few more dropped points and you're watching chelsea (or the mancs) dissapear over the horizon. Title dream over and it's only 6 games into the season.

I'm willing to give Rafa plenty more time because because we haven't actually been in a title chase since 1990 when we won it last. We had a sniff in 1996 and again in 2001 but it was always a complete long-shot.

by **account deleted by request** » Sat May 19, 2007 12:31 am

Its the manager picks the team, its the manager that gets the team ready for the season, its the manager that buys the players. If we had prepared/bought better maybe our luck would have been better, maybe we might have been looking back on a great start to the season where we beat all our rivals, instead of looking back on a disasterous start.

I dont believe rotation alone cost us our chance but it did cost us points. Sloppy pre-season was also a factor. Strange team selections was another (Crouch on fire so he doesnt play him ?)

Think about our pre-season/early season , all the signs were there losing 5-0 to some no mark German. Qualifying for the CL by struggling against Maccaba Haffa. Sheff U we hardly created a chance.

by **lakes10** » Sat May 19, 2007 12:31 am

no we have not had a good year, the CL win would be great but we still need our bread and butter.

by **LFC2007** » Sat May 19, 2007 12:46 am

I don't think this season has been a 'huge step' backwards whatsoever, Rafa saw that the league challenge was up and focussed our efforts on the champions league and getting a top four finish.

Just because we have less points is irrelevant, the only difference between this year's premiership challenge and last years is our away performances have been worse. If we'd have had something to play for in games against the likes of Man city, Villa, Portsmouth, Charlton and Fulham then we might have exceeded last year's total of 82 points. As it happens Rafa saw the need to focus our efforts on reaching the final of the CL, a move I think was wise. I disagree with Mick slightly in that I do think we were a little short of making a sustained challenge for the league title this year due to a lack of cutting edge, even when we've played at home we've demonstrated an inability to be ruthless on SOME occasions e.g. vs. Portsmouth, man city. I expected a title challenge nontheless, but for me it was a case of Pennant and Gonzales being unknown quantities, their weaknesses are one of the key reasons IMO that we a) rotated Gerrard and b) rotated Riise/Aurelio and c) lacked defensive solidity away from home an example being Aurelio's defending vs. Sheff U.

The rotation issue is also a probable cause for the inability to challenge Man Utd and Chelsea, BUT, I think the lack of trust in players such as Pennant and Gonzales caused this early on. The lack of quality in these areas has forced us to play Gerrard on the right in games where I'm sure Rafa would've preferred a solid right winger. If we'd had a Ronaldo on the right wing I'm certain Gerrard would have played in the middle. Likewise on the left, at times Rafa's been in a quandary over who to play as this may affect our defensive options, e.g. if you play Riise left mid, Aurelio would have played left back, when Aurelio was injured, Riise played left back, when Riise was injured, Aurelio played left back and left mid. A solid, relieble left winger, would have quashed this problem. Another reason is arguably the early loss of Garcia, he may have given us that extra option, although I don't think his impact in the league would have been too major, at the very least he would have given us that extra edge of creativity that was lacking in some away games.

So it's a combination for me of lack of trust in certain players particularly in the wingers, perhaps rightly so as they showed a lack of quality early on and a lack of solidity. The one area where Rafa did overrotate in my opinion is up front, when Crouch was on form he was on the bench for the next game. Maybe the reasons were linked to our cup/champions league runs and freshness of legs.

When we have the opportunity this summer to remedy the problems on the wings and bring in something a bit special to compliment the options we already have up front then I think we can really start to challenge the top two.

by **ivor_the_injun** » Sat May 19, 2007 12:48 am

One good thing about this season is that it shows players outside the club that being a squad player at LFC does mean that you'll play a part.

I'm personally stunned that Zenden has played as many games as he has, but maybe in the long run that will work in our favour.

by **yckatbjywtbiastkamb** » Sat May 19, 2007 12:50 am

s@int wrote:Its the manager picks the team, its the manager that gets the team ready for the season, its the manager that buys the players. If we had prepared/bought better maybe our luck would have been better, maybe we might have been looking back on a great start to the season where we beat all our rivals, instead of looking back on a disasterous start.

I dont believe rotation alone cost us our chance but it did cost us points. Sloppy pre-season was also a factor. Strange team selections was another (Crouch on fire so he doesnt play him ?)

Think about our pre-season/early season , all the signs were there losing 5-0 to some no mark German. Qualifying for the CL by struggling against Maccaba Haffa. Sheff U we hardly created a chance.

but he`s only 3 years into a massive job.
i`d understand what you are saying if he was like joe fagan or kenny daglish who inherited good sides but he inherited a side full of overpriced flops and decent players who wanted out.
the club hadnt won the title for 15 years or something and to be honest apart from one season under evans where we came `fourth in a two horse race` we`ve never even been close.
under houllier we came second with a late spurt when the title was already done and dusted, we were never mentioned as potential winners.
he was never realistically going to take over that side and win the title in even 5 years, we are facing massive, rich clubs who have good if not great managers themselves at the helm.
you`ve got to be realistic.

by **account deleted by request** » Sat May 19, 2007 1:03 am

So its unrealistic to expect to win at Sheff U, at Everton(who can only dream of spending what we have)at Bolton etc etc ?

I honestly believe we had the team to mount a challenge this season, the problem was we didn't start to play untill the chance was gone. The Mancs showed that you cant afford to get stuck in the starting gate, you have to make a decent start. We didn't this season, and we didn't last season. Last season we would have won the League if the season had started at the end of October (unfortunately it didn't)

Last season we actually got less points against the other top 4 sides than this year, so its against the teams that HAVEN'T spent as much as we have that we have failed this year. Having said that there is only Chelsea spent more than us this season.

Liverpool FC Forum

A hugely disappointing season....on many fronts - Let not athens distract you....

Who is online