Liverpool FC Forum

by **zarababe** » Wed May 16, 2007 12:49 pm

bigmick wrote:Couple of points here. Firstly, lets not spoil every single good football discussion with references to the fact that sabre also supports Real Sociedad. It's boring and irrelavent to the discussion, unless we're discussing the Spanish league.

yeh and stop the bitchiness - your are all beautiful cos we are all Liverpool Supporters - group hug !

All players can have dips in form - good or bad seasons- the fact is that class is permanent - and Alonso is class, just as Gerrrad is. Both may not have had the best of seasons, however they remain so improtant to what will be an improtant season for mounting a 'serious' title challenge.

We have witnissed that sustianing a title challenge requires the loss of 1-3 games only all season. If we want to fight on at least 2/3 fronts (League, CL and FA Cup) we need a decent level of strength in-depth - it's not possible now with the power game and the fact that anyone can beat anyone in this league now to do it with a shoe-string squad.

Rafa's stocking up in his cabinet of players - at least 2 in each position quality-wise and with the summer wealing and dealing it should be interesting :eyebrow

by **Sabre** » Wed May 16, 2007 12:54 pm

alonso is a better play overall, offers more options as sabre said but seems restricted or constrained going forward at times. playing alongside a holding midfielder, that i dont understand !

Team instructions. If he did that, the next thing you'd see in the TV is a Rafa with his face red, and yelling Alonso in Spanish to keep the position. He has done that more than once, he still give commands in Spanish to Spaniards. We play 2 strikers often, and the risk of losing the rol of holding midfielder, is seen perfectly in the Barcelona-Liverpool game away. Remember? we scored, they got nervous, and they removed the only holding mid they had. They didn't only not score, they also received the second.

by **aCe'** » Wed May 16, 2007 1:01 pm

Sabre wrote:
alonso is a better play overall, offers more options as sabre said but seems restricted or constrained going forward at times. playing alongside a holding midfielder, that i dont understand !

Team instructions. If he did that, the next thing you'd see in the TV is a Rafa with his face red, and yelling Alonso in Spanish to keep the position. He has done that more than once, he still give commands in Spanish to Spaniards. We play 2 strikers often, and the risk of losing the rol of holding midfielder, is seen perfectly in the Barcelona-Liverpool game away. Remember? we scored, they got nervous, and they removed the only holding mid they had. They didn't only not score, they also received the second.

whats mascherano doing then ?

if we are to control games against smaller teams and beat them like the manus and chelseas do... we need to be able to go at them and not keep our 2 central midfielders back to stop counter attacks.

against barcelona or manutd or chelsea id understand playing masch. and alonso and ordering them to stay back but against say 15/20 league teams, id want us going at them and controlling the games like we should be .

by **Sabre** » Wed May 16, 2007 1:12 pm

Mascherano, who could also be seen as a holding mid, is a less especific midfielder. He could play on front of Alonso. Mascherano provides something Alonso hasn't, conduction of the ball, running with it. He gives a lot of oxygen to our midfield (sorry I really struggle with my footie english mate). And since he has joined, he has allowed Alonso to go upper more times, the shot against Czec in which Kuyt scored, or Alonso's last goal happens because a mate covers Alonso when he does this.

But, before winter. When you have 6 players on front of the ball. With Pennant. With Gerrard. With 2 strikers. Either you "sacrifice" Alonso a bit, or you can't be one of the best defences of the premiership. Quite simply, it's Alonso's role.

BTW, I like Mascherano a lot. And I'm happy that next year, we'll have Mascherano-Alonso-Gerrard, rather than Mascherano-Alonso-Sissoko trio. OR Zenden in the middle for that matter. Mascherano is indeed a midfielder that can be compared to Alonso. I still don't know him well, but I like him a lot.

P.S. Ace' to discuss about positioning and each of the decissions we should drink a couple of beers, sit down together on the stadium and comment the decissions when we see all the pitch. Discuss that here is difficult.

PS2. I'd love to hear why people think that Alonso-Gerrard in the middle are not compatible.

by **stmichael** » Wed May 16, 2007 1:27 pm

aCe' wrote:i think that playing gerrard in the middle alongside alonso would give us that extra something in the offensive !

that's stating the obvious but it also goes the other way. against any top class midfield we get ripped to shreds with those two playing cental in a 4-4-2. ok you can get away with it against the likes of wigan but when it comes to the massive games, where the first priority is to keep it tight early on, rafa will very rarely trust gerrard to play central with alonso in that formation.

first half in istanbul we got ripped to shreds. galatasaray at home in the second half we got ripped to shreds. alonso isn't the most mobile player in the world anyway. gerrard and mascherano is a much more suited partnership imo.

by **66-1112520797** » Wed May 16, 2007 1:29 pm

stmichael wrote:
aCe' wrote:i think that playing gerrard in the middle alongside alonso would give us that extra something in the offensive !

that's stating the obvious but it also goes the other way. against any top class midfield we get ripped to shreds with those two playing cental in a 4-4-2. ok you can get away with it against the likes of wigan but when it comes to the massive games, where the first priority is to keep it tight early on, rafa will very rarely trust gerrard to play central with alonso in that formation.

first half in istanbul we got ripped to shreds. galatasaray at home in the second half we got ripped to shreds. alonso isn't the most mobile player in the world anyway. gerrard and mascherano is a much more suited partnership imo.

But he wasnt frightened to use Gerrard and Mascha together in a semi-final of a European cup ?

by **Sabre** » Wed May 16, 2007 1:32 pm

Of course he wasn't, Mascherano is a great player. And if I had to come back from a 1-0, and I had to pick between Alonso and Mascherano, I'd pick Mascherano. Then, when 1-0 for LFC and if I wanted to have better and more possesion, I'd bring Alonso.

The good thing, is that we have that choice of quality now. We don't have to use a Zenden now! What a bless!

by **66-1112520797** » Wed May 16, 2007 1:44 pm

Sabre wrote:Of course he wasn't, Mascherano is a great player. And if I had to come back from a 1-0, and I had to pick between Alonso and Mascherano, I'd pick Mascherano. Then, when 1-0 for LFC and if I wanted to have better and more possesion, I'd bring Alonso.

The good thing, is that we have that choice of quality now. We don't have to use a Zenden now! What a bless!

Yes that maybe a blessing ( about Zenden).

I dont know why some of us (me included) have gotten wound up about things, its pointless.

We have three quality or even four in some peoples eyes in central midfield, we should be happy

But ...............

I think, like St.Mike that if we played a 4-4-2 That certainly on current form and more importanly specifics. I think Gerrard and Mascha look like a good combo, yes it maybe early, and I'm not happy that the Alonso-Gerrard partnership hasnt worked out aswell as I would of thought.
But for me Mascha seems the more 'natural' of him and Alonso to me, as a 'holding mid'. Maybe slightly better defensively, definately not as good in possesion thats for sure. But soley to do a 'Makelelee' job I think he's better equipped, only slightly.

by **grayghost** » Wed May 16, 2007 1:52 pm

Maybe we will not be selling Alonso aftar all. Juventus are about to make a 15mil bid for Sissoko. Nicked this of LFC.TV by the way so take it ur leave it its up to you.

by **Owzat** » Wed May 16, 2007 1:53 pm

grayghost wrote:Maybe we will not be selling Alonso aftar all. Juventus are about to make a 15mil bid for Sissoko. Nicked this of LFC.TV by the way so take it ur leave it its up to you.

£15m or euros? I'd take anything £6m+ for Sissoko, if we can get double that then great.

by **grayghost** » Wed May 16, 2007 2:08 pm

Owzat wrote:
grayghost wrote:Maybe we will not be selling Alonso aftar all. Juventus are about to make a 15mil bid for Sissoko. Nicked this of LFC.TV by the way so take it ur leave it its up to you.

£15m or euros? I'd take anything £6m+ for Sissoko, if we can get double that then great.

15mil Is wot it said and that is wot i would sell him for not a penny less.

by **Ade** » Wed May 16, 2007 2:21 pm

Lando_Griffin wrote:
peewee wrote:lando again i will say to you that no one on here is doubting his ability thats why your defence of him seems over the top, but even you must be able to see that this season he has not performed (for whatever reason), and if he goes, so what, as long as he is replaced. i am more concerned about whats good for LFC that whats good for xabi alonso, this the last few months his attitude has not been right (again for whatever reason), i pointed this out weeks ago and some idiots attempted to ridicule that only for other posters to also pick up on it.

but i did burst out laughing at this comment
Xabi has been holding this team together for the past 2 seasons,

i can only assume thats anger speaking mate because thats a crazy thing to say

Laugh all you want, but it's Xabi who allows Rafa's system to work. It's him pulling the strings on the pitch. It's his tactical awareness that prevents untold damage from opponents, or allows attacks to build.

I have said it before, and I will not change my opinion of this until I see something proving the opposite:

Xabi Alonso is more important to this team's system than any other player.

Lando I haven't read the next 3 pages after this post, so it may have been covered already. But if Alonso's pulling the strings he ain't pulling them hard enough. We are not incisive enough against the weaker teams, we're not creating enough away from home, and we're not moving from defence into attack quick enough.

I ain't saying that's all Alonso's fault, how could it be? We need better wingers than we've had this season, we also need a truly world-class striker, and Stevie hasn't been firing on all cylinders enough. But if Alonso is our string-puller he hasn't been doing it well enough this season.

And the idea that Alonso played like Koeman in his first season and is now suffering by comparion is way off the mark too. He's an excellent player, IMO, but he's not indispensable, and with Masch's arrival Xabi has to accept that his performances over the past season mean he'll have to settle for a bit of rotation next year.

If he's big enough to accept that, we're laughing. If he isn't, he needs to pick up his game. This season he hasn't been influential enough

by **Sabre** » Wed May 16, 2007 2:22 pm

I dont know why some of us (me included) have gotten wound up about things, its pointless.

YOu got wound up because you once told me that I always agreed Badbob and bigmick in my footie posts, and in return I snapped that your footie posts are clueless. And since there was a discussion about football here, and there's not worse insult to a man that saying he doesn't know his football, we discussed too vehemently. I hope you agree that both MY comment on your posts and YOUR comment on my posts was unfair.

Now, Alonso and Gerrard in the middle. Does anybody think that they're incompatible? it's very important for me to know that. Gerrard is the best player of the squad, and sometimes I sense some sort of feeling as if Alonso was the culprit that makes Gerrard play in the right. And I disagree that. Gerrard, the best player of the squad, plays in the right because he has the ability to do so superbly. Alonso could not do that for instance.

The only incompatibility I see with Gerrard in the middle, is to ask both 2 attacking wingers, 2 strikers, and besides Gerrard doing his stuff. To hold that with a single holding midfielder is difficult. Because Gerrard does make marvelous things, but he takes risks (as St Michael once explained) and sometimes he's dispossesed and you have a counter. In the right, he can take those risks (that provides lots of goals and threat for us) with less risks for the team.

With the 4-4-1-1, as an attacking mid, he'll always have his back well covered.

So the problem is not whether Gerrard or Alonso are compatible mates. The problem is that in football you have to find a balance between the risks you take and cautious-ness.

Gerrard and Alonso are perfectly compatible. In fact, they do not compete with each other because they're totally different. Gerrard could be more disciplined and not take so many risks, but Rafa has preffered to give him MORE FREEDOM both when he plays in the right, and as an attacking mid in the 4411. And he preffers it because he knows HOW GOOD is Gerrard. (BTW 23 goals last season playing often in the right)

But Gerrard and Alonso incompatible? my árse. Great players are not incompatible. Too risky formations and tactics are.

by **stmichael** » Wed May 16, 2007 2:35 pm

Xabi and Stevie are both world-class central midfielders. However, I don't think their central midfield partnership has ever reached the level we wished for. I still think they can have a very strong central midfield partnership, but at the current moment, I'd rather see Stevie on the right for the time being. Stevie's best position is definitely not on the right, as he's much more influential when he's in the centre, but for the sake of the team as a whole, I think he's better in a free role from the right. Without Stevie in the centre, Xabi becomes the main man in midfield, with everything going through him. Xabi has done a really great job though, and although it's asking Stevie to "sacrifice" himself a bit, it's best for the team at the moment.

Of course, if we do get a really good right winger, I'd expect to see Stevie back in the centre. I don't think it'll actually cause much problems with us, because Stevie is still a world-class central midfielder in his own right. Xabi's influence may fade off a bit with Stevie's presence in the middle, but I'm sure Xabi will still perform well. Don't ever ask me the question whether Xabi or Stevie is better, because I've no idea at all. I just know that with both in our side, we're much better off.

All this talk of 443, 4231, 451, 1764 10, it's all irrelevant in my eyes. One thing Rafa and the players have demonstrated this season is the ability to flawlessly switch between 2 or 3 different systems in one game. The point being that we have flexible and adaptable players who can all play in slightly different positions depending on what Rafa determines is needed at any point in time.

It's important to point out that players don't have positions in Benitez's lineup but 'roles'. It's more about what you ask individual players to do. When Stevie is asked to sit in as a defensive midfieder, he is a far, far less effective player than when Momo and Xabi are on the pitch and he is allowed to get loose and attack, without worrying that we will be ripped up on the counter.

What you call the formation or the individual position is less important than what individuals are expected to do. Gerrard is versatile and can fulfil a variety of roles. Unfortunately he can't do them all, so asking him to concentrate on one is deleterious to the others. He is best when attacking, therefore limit the amount of defending he has to do.

by **babu** » Wed May 16, 2007 2:37 pm

Bamaga man wrote:I dont know why some of us (me included) have gotten wound up about things, its pointless.

We have three quality or even four in some peoples eyes in central midfield, we should be happy

feckin amen dude.

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