Liverpool FC Forum

by **66-1112520797** » Wed May 16, 2007 9:32 am

Sabre wrote:You didn't understand? I'll tell you the same thing again in other words: you don't prove your football points, the whys and whats telling me I'm biased and all that. That are comments about ME, not the TOPIC we're discussing.

Get it? now, why alonso is not a holding midfielder in your view? that remains unanswered.

Read the f.ucking thread.

by **112-1077774096** » Wed May 16, 2007 9:33 am

hay sabre you started this one and once again try and wriggle out of it, change it back to football as thoigh you did no wrong.

what did you say in the other thread, just wait and your enemies will bury themselves. something cantonaesque anyway

by **account deleted by request** » Wed May 16, 2007 9:35 am

With your campaign, your constant PM'ing and your hounding of Sabre how do you ever get the time to post Bamaga ? :laugh:

I think someone puts too much value on their own importance !

by **Sabre** » Wed May 16, 2007 9:38 am

Bamaga man wrote:
Sabre wrote:You didn't understand? I'll tell you the same thing again in other words: you don't prove your football points, the whys and whats telling me I'm biased and all that. That are comments about ME, not the TOPIC we're discussing.

Get it? now, why alonso is not a holding midfielder in your view? that remains unanswered.

Read the f.ucking thread.

I have done it. But it doesn't convince me. You've explained that theory of Alonso is a "deep-lying-playmaker" or something, but I've asked you to explain me what he lacks to be a classic holding midfielder... please explain.

by **66-1112520797** » Wed May 16, 2007 10:20 am

I dont think he lacks much TBH, I just dont seem him as a natural holding midfielder. I think since he's been here he's become more accustomed to the role. I just dont think he's in the same catergory as Makelele, Hamman and even Nicky Butt in his pomp.
He looks more natural to me as a player that sits deep and pulls the strings when he has time on the ball, the player who can dictate a game with his exquisite passing skills and vision. Obviously while sitting deep he has to do some of the " unsung " stuff aswell. But I dont think it looks his natural game, I just wonder, this maybe the reason Mascha or even Momo was brought into the middle. To help Xabi out with the defensive duties, and possibly relieve him more of them to play his natural game.

Anyway, I might be wrong a maybe right. But this has gone off on a tangent. Initially it was about Alonsos "sub par performances". But the people who think Alonso can do no wrong cant even admit when Xabi has been below his best.

by **Sabre** » Wed May 16, 2007 10:27 am

I see, so he doesn't lack much TBH. I agree. And he's not in the same category of Makelele, I also agree, Barcelona and Madrid would pay lots of money more for Alonso.

But let's not make a drama out of this. We're disagreeing, nothing more. It's nice to have different opinions. Sometimes we won't accept other opinions because it's not convincing for us, but that's only natural and human. I have a bias here, and has to do indeed with me being a supporter aswell of another club smaller than Liverpool. When you're a small club supporter aswell, you have more patience with the players, because you don't have the money to buy fresh new players. That's why I defend Pennant, Finnan, Riise, Alonso, Reina and even Gonzalez. I have that "softy" bias, but with almost every player.

Points explained, disagreement, but no problem because of that.

P.S. Oh Bamaga man, let me tell you a good thing about you. Despite I think you're wrong (and you think I'm wrong), you explain your points with accuracy, you don't just say "he's below par" and that's it. At least you explain your opinion, and that's respectable.

P.S.2 There's another interesting question about football in the "Milan Secrets" thread. 5 midfielders approach of Milan, it would be interesting to read your views about that question too.

by **aCe'** » Wed May 16, 2007 11:40 am

i dont think EVERY team has to have a makelele style holding player to get the ball forward...
xabi alonso is nowhere near as good as makelele if we compare defensive abilities... he has good tackling.. good positioning but not as good as makelele is...
with his passing ability and his creativity, alonso could and SHOULD offer much more than he has so far in liverpool.
with mascherano playing along, we all seem to expect much more of alonso on the ball than we see.
xabi needs to up his game quite abit next season especially if we go for an alonso-mascherano partnership at the middle of the park.
he seems to stay back at times when ud expect him to go forward and try to help build up play in advanced positions.

sabre... they would pay much more for alonso because hes 23 and hes spanish... not because hes a better player than makelele is .. makelele is the best player in the world in his position... sorry but cant say the same about alonso..

by **Sabre** » Wed May 16, 2007 11:58 am

I respect that opinion, but I think that as much as the english Media underrates LFC players and is making blowjobs to Chelsea and Manchester players, I've seen Makelele a lot of years in Madrid and Celta de Vigo, and I know what he does and what he doesn't. Real Madrid made a big mistake selling him, I also can see that and I've always thought that. But they sold him because he was nowhere near to match a player like Fernando Redondo, and they thought it would be easy to find another one.

He's a very good defensive midfielder, but Alonso costs more quite simply because he provides more things than him, set pieces situations, range shots, and long passes, besides being a very good defensive midfielder.

Without the ball Makelele is better? May be. I'll give you that. But if you pick both players as a whole, I can't say Makelele is any better, no matter how much SKY, Andy Gray and those fúckwits praise our opposition players (especially Lampard, who's quite an ordinary player, I hope not to wind up anybody with this). In the mean time, they always have time to criticise Alonso, Gerrard (who's MILES better than Lampard) and every LFC player at the slightest chance. :no

Makelele, is again, a great player in his position. Is more mobile than Alonso. He runs more Km. He has more stamina. But he's not a better tackler, and he has worse positioning. Also look at those goal kicks coming from the keeper, and those jumps to head those. And compare Makelele and Alonso on that. I think AT THE LEAST, it's debatable and comparable both players' quality WITHOUT the ball. With the ball, there's not possible comparison, IMHO.

Alonso was much worse player when he came LFC. But he received lots of praises here. Alonso has learnt a lot in the EPL, and will give more. Alonso makes mistakes, of course, and can improve his game, of course. I'm just saying that we shouldn't buy all the hype about some Chelsea players.

Anyway, again, it's nice we think different things, otherwise those boards would be boring.

by **bigmick** » Wed May 16, 2007 12:14 pm

Couple of points here. Firstly, lets not spoil every single good football discussion with references to the fact that sabre also supports Real Sociedad. It's boring and irrelavent to the discussion, unless we're discussing the Spanish league.

Secondly, this is a good football discussion. I must confess I think of Alonso as a holding midfielder pure and simple, but deep lying playmaker is near enough I suppose. It's not a description in terms of a footballing position which I'm familiar with but in the sense that it implies that Alonso offers more than just a stereotypical, classic holding midfielder (of which Makaleli is just about the best there is IMHO) I can go with it. Sabre is right here, alonso can do more with the ball than the Frenchman, but the little fella sneaks it in terms of pure back-four protection for me. I think Alonso is a better player than Masherano, although I haven't seen as much of the Argentine as I have Xabi. I would've thought Masherano is a much more viable comparison in actual fact to Makeleli, and not as good to tell the truth.

Alonso though offers a very nice blend of top-class holding midfielder, and World-class distributor. He is rare in our team in that he would unquestionably get a game in my opinion at all three of our main rivals. He is better than Carrick obviously, although the Englishman would no doubt be flattered to be mentioned int he same breath as he seems to have modelled his game on our Xabi. He would get in Chelsea's team in my opinion as he does offer more with the ball than Makeleli, and he is clearly better than Gilberto Silva, or whoever else Arsenal put in as a holder.

All that said, he hasn't had his best season for us by a long way. Those who have pointed that out are correct in my view. He isn't either our best player in my opinion, boring as it maybe that is the captain by an absolute country mile.

by **aCe'** » Wed May 16, 2007 12:34 pm

Sabre wrote:I respect that opinion, but I think that as much as the english Media underrates LFC players and is making blowjobs to Chelsea and Manchester players, I've seen Makelele a lot of years in Madrid and Celta de Vigo, and I know what he does and what he doesn't. Real Madrid made a big mistake selling him, I also can see that and I've always thought that. But they sold him because he was nowhere near to match a player like Fernando Redondo, and they thought it would be easy to find another one.

He's a very good defensive midfielder, but Alonso costs more quite simply because he provides more things than him, set pieces situations, range shots, and long passes, besides being a very good defensive midfielder.

Without the ball Makelele is better? May be. I'll give you that. But if you pick both players as a whole, I can't say Makelele is any better, no matter how much SKY, Andy Gray and those fúckwits praise our opposition players (especially Lampard, who's quite an ordinary player, I hope not to wind up anybody with this). In the mean time, they always have time to criticise Alonso, Gerrard (who's MILES better than Lampard) and every LFC player at the slightest chance.

Makelele, is again, a great player in his position. Is more mobile than Alonso. He runs more Km. He has more stamina. But he's not a better tackler, and he has worse positioning. Also look at those goal kicks coming from the keeper, and those jumps to head those. And compare Makelele and Alonso on that. I think AT THE LEAST, it's debatable and comparable both players' quality WITHOUT the ball. With the ball, there's not possible comparison, IMHO.

Alonso was much worse player when he came LFC. But he received lots of praises here. Alonso has learnt a lot in the EPL, and will give more. Alonso makes mistakes, of course, and can improve his game, of course. I'm just saying that we shouldn't buy all the hype about some Chelsea players.

Anyway, again, it's nice we think different things, otherwise those boards would be boring.

- redondo is one of the best midfielders iv seen in the game better than makelele...better than alonso

- lampard..much as i hate to admit it is a very talented footballer.. cant understand how ud say hes an average player with all the goals he scored and all the assists he made.. im not saying hes better than gerrard im just saying its unfair saying hes average.

- makelele not a better tackler ?! come again mate ?!
- worse positioning ?! i dont know what you mean by positioning to be honest ! you think that alonso, by staying back at all times and taking no risk goin forward when he should has better positioning ? playing alongside mascherano not lampard and xabi stays back... let me put it this way... to me, his defensive positioning is very good mind you not better than makaleles but his offensive poitioning/awarness is poor more often than not.

- goal kicks and headers won ?! makelele is a short man and for a short guy he sure does win his share or air balls... he jumps for almost all the balls and fouls more often than not but u cant say that alonso is better just because he is taller than makelele.

- without the ball...defensively...makelele is better than alonso
- with the ball... makelele is decent ..alonso is very good.. alonso has more quality but has failed-more often than not- to show it despite having a better chaance at doing so given the players playing alongside him.

all in all.. if i was to choose a player to play alongside Gerrard id pick makelele but if it was to play alongside mascherano it would be alonso..

overall, makelele is a better player than alonso is at the moment... in 2 years, you never know !

by **stmichael** » Wed May 16, 2007 12:37 pm

He's already been converted from a forward into an athletic midfielder - the poor guy can't get any consistency or improve because he's being asked to do a new job every 5 minutes.

This is part of what baffles me about Rafa sometimes: he is very fixed on certain things (e.g. Xabi as the pivot, with a defensive partner), but then negates the positives with caution elsewhere. If we're going to play without pace wide or upfront and be reduced to square balls or simple balls to strikers with their backs to goal, 90% of midfielders in the Premiership would do. Alonso (and Gerrard) have much more ability in their passing game and vision than that, that requires pace and intelligent runs ahead of them (the intelligents runs requirement rules out Bellamy).

Xabi loves the strikers who have pace and use the space behind defenses - he lobbed the ball in to the space for Baros and Cisse, now we are very different. Crouch holds the ball up, Kuyt plays quite deep and Bellamy's always offside so Xabi looks up and sees no obvious pass and get caught - I think we need to see how he plays with maybe more attcking wingers/strikers who are willing to use the space more

Another problem I see is in 04/05 teams were more than willing to attack us and this allowed Baros to run clear and Xabi to pass in to them areas - now opponents sit back and leave us little space to put 60 yard passes in to, Rafa needs to adapt Xabi's game to allow for this.

For me, I always try to place players in scenarios - would Alonso be a better player or look world class in Arsenal's team? I have to be honest and say that he would struggle to be as effective as Fabregas.

Equally though, Fabregas would struggle in our team. I think they way we have played has been detrimental to Xabi's natural game and making him convert into a holding player was probably borne out of necessity but has limited him in what influence he can have on games; it's as though he has forgotten how to be probing at defences or be offensive in the final third.

I'm not for one second suggesting that Fabregas and Alonso play in similar roles, they don't. Infact Xabi plays more like Carrick at Manure. Carrick is a closer comparison but then how often is he further forward than Alonso, in and around the 18 yard line (just because he only scored a few recently doesn't mean he only just started doing it)? I was speaking in ability terms and roles - for example I see more rotation of Cesc and Xabi in the Spanish national team than a central pairing of Xabi/Cesc.

If Alonso was in Arsenals team he would be playing Cesc's role NOT Gilberto's imo which is where the comparison comes from.

by **Sabre** » Wed May 16, 2007 12:39 pm

Yes, not his best season. And for what is worth, not this weeks, but around January or February (don't remember exactly) HE DID ANNOY ME in 3 or 4 games, because believe it or not, I'm very angry with Alonso when he does badly. But not now, he's in a decent level for his standards.

It hasn't nothing to do with him being Spaniard. When I saw Morientes the first time in my life, I pointed a finger to him and said "that's a fúcking great striker". And then he became famous. And for that I always had a slight bias favouring him. But that doesn't prevent me of knowing that HE'S MUCH A WORSE PLAYER than Henry is. What I mean is, that if we were talking about Fernando Redondo (in it's time) vs Alonso, I'd have more doubts. But not in the Makelele vs Alonso comparison. No way.

The media spouts a pile of cràp week in week out about the best team of England, LFC. They count titles since the premiership was created. They don't acknowledge the success of Liverpool. THey say we had luck 2 years ago. When we luckily reach the final again, then they say we underachieve in the league. And of course, they say our players are not that good. I'm bloody sure Andy Gray would have a big smile if Alonso didn't play here next season, the bluenose bástard. :angry:

P.S. And of course Gerrard is the best player of the team. He does well almost EVERYTHING that a footballer can do. Header? he does them (Istambul) . Tackling? aswell. Passing? aswell. How he conducts the ball? brilliantly (Alonso doesn't know to run with the ball well btw). Gerrard is the best of the team. No doubt.

by **Judge** » Wed May 16, 2007 12:41 pm

bigmick wrote:Couple of points here. Firstly, lets not spoil every single good football discussion with references to the fact that sabre also supports Real Sociedad. It's boring and irrelavent to the discussion, unless we're discussing the Spanish league.

so are you saying that the spanish league is boring and irrelevant mick

by **66-1112520797** » Wed May 16, 2007 12:43 pm

Judge wrote:
bigmick wrote:Couple of points here. Firstly, lets not spoil every single good football discussion with references to the fact that sabre also supports Real Sociedad. It's boring and irrelavent to the discussion, unless we're discussing the Spanish league.

so are you saying that the spanish league is boring and irrelevant mick

No but he's basically telling everyone to bite their lip while its okay for his mate "Sabes" to drop in snide remarks.

by **aCe'** » Wed May 16, 2007 12:47 pm

stmichael wrote:He's already been converted from a forward into an athletic midfielder - the poor guy can't get any consistency or improve because he's being asked to do a new job every 5 minutes.

This is part of what baffles me about Rafa sometimes: he is very fixed on certain things (e.g. Xabi as the pivot, with a defensive partner), but then negates the positives with caution elsewhere. If we're going to play without pace wide or upfront and be reduced to square balls or simple balls to strikers with their backs to goal, 90% of midfielders in the Premiership would do. Alonso (and Gerrard) have much more ability in their passing game and vision than that, that requires pace and intelligent runs ahead of them (the intelligents runs requirement rules out Bellamy).

Xabi loves the strikers who have pace and use the space behind defenses - he lobbed the ball in to the space for Baros and Cisse, now we are very different. Crouch holds the ball up, Kuyt plays quite deep and Bellamy's always offside so Xabi looks up and sees no obvious pass and get caught - I think we need to see how he plays with maybe more attcking wingers/strikers who are willing to use the space more

Another problem I see is in 04/05 teams were more than willing to attack us and this allowed Baros to run clear and Xabi to pass in to them areas - now opponents sit back and leave us little space to put 60 yard passes in to, Rafa needs to adapt Xabi's game to allow for this.

For me, I always try to place players in scenarios - would Alonso be a better player or look world class in Arsenal's team? I have to be honest and say that he would struggle to be as effective as Fabregas.

Equally though, Fabregas would struggle in our team. I think they way we have played has been detrimental to Xabi's natural game and making him convert into a holding player was probably borne out of necessity but has limited him in what influence he can have on games; it's as though he has forgotten how to be probing at defences or be offensive in the final third.

I'm not for one second suggesting that Fabregas and Alonso play in similar roles, they don't. Infact Xabi plays more like Carrick at Manure. Carrick is a closer comparison but then how often is he further forward than Alonso, in and around the 18 yard line (just because he only scored a few recently doesn't mean he only just started doing it)? I was speaking in ability terms and roles - for example I see more rotation of Cesc and Xabi in the Spanish national team than a central pairing of Xabi/Cesc.

If Alonso was in Arsenals team he would be playing Cesc's role NOT Gilberto's imo which is where the comparison comes from.

why would fabregas struggle in liverpool ?!
what he offers for arsenal is exactly what we are missing from playing alonso the way we do !
a central midfielder who can take the ball forward or play a pass and make a run to open up spaces for wide players and forwards..
when we had gerrard playing in the middle alongside alonso for a while, gerrard did this and we looked a much better side going forward.
if ur talking about fabregas playing the same role for us as that he does at arsenal, i reckon hed be a big success here.

alonso is a better play overall, offers more options as sabre said but seems restricted or constrained going forward at times. playing alongside a holding midfielder, that i dont understand !

thats why i think that playing gerrard in the middle alongside alonso would give us that extra something in the offensive !

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