Liverpool FC Forum

by **66-1112520797** » Wed May 16, 2007 4:54 am

I don't think you can possibly compare Gerrard playing with Hamann to Gerrard and Alonso, as they were under different regimes, where the whole team was set up completely differently

You can still compare the partnership in CM though. Hamman & Gerrards worked better than Alonso and Gerrards have, it got the best out of both Gerrard and Hamman

Under Houllier, we were a defensive team, with Gerrard sitting deep much more

Under Benitez we're still deemed defensive, although Gerrard has been giving a bit more freedom. The team as a whole is defensive. Similar to that of Houlliers team.
This has been proven all season, against the bigger, and more importantly against the smaller teams where we've failed to break them down because of our lack of creativity. We're still set up as a hard working defensive unit.

Alonso is a better player than Hamann could ever have wished to be, and to suggest that his facing 2-on-1's were his own fault, when it was patently obvious his midfield partner was selling him up the river, is daft, IMHO

Thats complete tosh, if you reckon that well then I'd just say you failed to see all the "unsung" things Hamman did. Like we've supposedly missed all Xabi's "unsung" things. Fact of the matter is Hamman was a better defensive midfielder than Alonso is. Their two different players, like I said ones a ' holding mid, the other is a deep -lying-playmaker. That is what Xabi is, the latter, and his playmaking this season has been non-exsistant. Therefore because of different styles of players (Hamman/Alonso) thats why IMO Hamman played better as a partnership with Gerrard than Alonso has done.

Mascherano is a brilliant player, but he just isn't good enough to dislodge Xabi for an extended period IMHO. He doesn't have the tools his Hispanic cousin possesses.
It's all well and good saying "Mascherano and Gerrard are a better pair", but what you seem to forget is - who's going to find Stevie's runs without Xabi in the team? That's right - no one. No one in the side that faced Sh*tski has any vision whatsoever, aside from Gerrard and Alonso

No. So why was Mascha picked ahead of Xabi against Chelsea at home, why was Xabi the only first team regular that got run-outs against Portmouth and Fulham and all the "lesser important games" in between times. I think you'll find that Mascha can and will next season dislodge Alonso during the course of the season.
When has Xabi picked out Gerrards runs continuesly this season, it hasnt been as aparent. Because his passing this season has been below par, and I'm the team could pass a ball still without Alonso in it. I wouldnt rely on just Alonso to pick out passes to cut open defences, because he hasnt.

That's a pretty damning reason why Alonso stays. By all means, play a 5 man midfield, or a 4-4-1-1 formation and incorporate all 3. But to suggest that Xabi is the weak link is ludicrous. The guy is a magician.

The Magician, I'd agree Lando he's done a few disapearing acts this season.

I'm not saying he's a weak link. He's a deep-lying plamaker right ? He'll need a holding mid next to him, Masch and Gerrard just infront too produce a threat and creativity that Mascha and Alonso both lack.
A bit like Milan, They have Pirlo - their deep-lying plamaker, then Gattuso the defensive mid. And Kaka in front.
All I'm saying on first glimpses, if you played a flat 4, the two center mids would look better in Gerrard/Mashsa. Alonso and Gerrard we all know doesnt really work, neither are natural holding mids, this is why we look vulnrable to counter attacks at times with them in the middle.

The fact is you don't sell your best players, and from what I can see our best players are:

Alonso, Gerrard, Carragher, Kewell and Reina

I never spoke of selling our best players.

by **account deleted by request** » Wed May 16, 2007 4:57 am

Bamaga you have got your quotes the wrong way round haven't you mate ?

by **Lando_Griffin** » Wed May 16, 2007 5:02 am

peewee wrote:
Lando_Griffin wrote:
peewee wrote:listen guys, there really is no point discussing alonso, sabre will never admit to alonsos faults (and he does have them), i think alonso wont be here next season, but hey thats my opinion and i hope i am wrong, he is a decent player.

can we afford to do without him? well my answer to that is 'have we won the leauge with him?' so yes we can afford to do without him, i prefer to see mash in the starting line up with gerrard central, gerrard is not wide player, he isnt a winger so what the point in him being there just so we can shoe horn alonso or sissoko into the team.

i think the loss of alonso wont be a bad thing for the club, i think it would be a blessing in disguise

So what you're saying is we can do without our entire squad, then, seeing as none of them have won the league?

Let's sell Gerrard and Carragher, too, then. Make it worth while.

Odd point, to be honest Peewee...

I have to say that something tells me if Alonso were a scouser, you'd see it differently.

not at all lando, the simple fact is that none of our squad have won the league for us, the point i am making is it will not be any hardship if we were to lose any player as they are ALL dispensible, the reason i name alonso is because this thread is about alonso or did you miss that point?

if the thread was about carragher, at this moment in time i would say the same things.

the important thing here is that we can replace alonso with the same quality, we will not be weakening the team if he goes (although i must point out that i dont want him to be sold, just it wont be the biggest loss in the world if he is sold). if we have a player of gerrards standard or better to replace gerrard then as far as i am concerned he can go as well.

like i say, the players we have have not won us the league, if they can be replaced with better players then lets do it, if we can get money and strengthen the team to a league winning team then lets do it.

no sentiments anymore guys, if its not working lets stop beating round the bush and making excuses, lets just say its not good enough, yes alonso is quality, so is mascherano, so where is the loss to us if he goes, all i can se is benefits of mab etoo coming and filling a gap that we need to fill, or the money to strenghn the team where we need to strengthen (we dont need to strenthen the center of midfield any further)

But you don't weaken one area of your team to strengthen another.

Not unless you're Everton.

Xabi stays until HE wants to go. That's how I reckon Rafa sees it.

by **account deleted by request** » Wed May 16, 2007 5:03 am

Good post Bamaga

by **66-1112520797** » Wed May 16, 2007 5:04 am

s@int wrote:Bamaga you have got your quotes the wrong way round haven't you mate ?

Yes.......... :blush:

Can it be tidied up ?

Nice one mate.

by **112-1077774096** » Wed May 16, 2007 5:13 am

Lando_Griffin wrote:
peewee wrote:
Lando_Griffin wrote:
peewee wrote:listen guys, there really is no point discussing alonso, sabre will never admit to alonsos faults (and he does have them), i think alonso wont be here next season, but hey thats my opinion and i hope i am wrong, he is a decent player.

can we afford to do without him? well my answer to that is 'have we won the leauge with him?' so yes we can afford to do without him, i prefer to see mash in the starting line up with gerrard central, gerrard is not wide player, he isnt a winger so what the point in him being there just so we can shoe horn alonso or sissoko into the team.

i think the loss of alonso wont be a bad thing for the club, i think it would be a blessing in disguise

So what you're saying is we can do without our entire squad, then, seeing as none of them have won the league?

Let's sell Gerrard and Carragher, too, then. Make it worth while.

Odd point, to be honest Peewee...

I have to say that something tells me if Alonso were a scouser, you'd see it differently.

not at all lando, the simple fact is that none of our squad have won the league for us, the point i am making is it will not be any hardship if we were to lose any player as they are ALL dispensible, the reason i name alonso is because this thread is about alonso or did you miss that point?

if the thread was about carragher, at this moment in time i would say the same things.

the important thing here is that we can replace alonso with the same quality, we will not be weakening the team if he goes (although i must point out that i dont want him to be sold, just it wont be the biggest loss in the world if he is sold). if we have a player of gerrards standard or better to replace gerrard then as far as i am concerned he can go as well.

like i say, the players we have have not won us the league, if they can be replaced with better players then lets do it, if we can get money and strengthen the team to a league winning team then lets do it.

no sentiments anymore guys, if its not working lets stop beating round the bush and making excuses, lets just say its not good enough, yes alonso is quality, so is mascherano, so where is the loss to us if he goes, all i can se is benefits of mab etoo coming and filling a gap that we need to fill, or the money to strenghn the team where we need to strengthen (we dont need to strenthen the center of midfield any further)

But you don't weaken one area of your team to strengthen another.

Not unless you're Everton.

Xabi stays until HE wants to go. That's how I reckon Rafa sees it.

fair comment mate but i have already explained that i dont think it will be weakening the team, if we didnt have mash to play in that position then selling him would be suicide, but the fact we have a class act to slot in there then i dont see the problem.

dont get me wrong guys, i dont want to se him go, but if he does it wont be the end of the world, thats all i am saying

by **babu** » Wed May 16, 2007 5:18 am

peewee,

IMO there is always room for a reasonable amount of sentiment. Especially at LFC. How would we feel if Rafa didn't play Fowler in the last league match?

Gerrard could probably be replaced as a player, but as a captain and inspirational player for the club? i don't think so.

by **112-1077774096** » Wed May 16, 2007 5:22 am

i am talking about as a player babu, yes gerrard and carragher do offer different things to the club as yes, they are scousers so i suppose will have more affinity to the club, but speaking in purely playing terms then if they can be replaced by better then so be it.

i have said in another thread before that i would hate to see my team without any scousers in it, but if that was the way it had to be to win the lague then i would be happy with that.

by **Lando_Griffin** » Wed May 16, 2007 5:29 am

Bamaga man wrote:

I don't think you can possibly compare Gerrard playing with Hamann to Gerrard and Alonso, as they were under different regimes, where the whole team was set up completely differently

You can still compare the partnership in CM though. Hamman & Gerrards worked better than Alonso and Gerrards have, it got the best out of both Gerrard and Hamman.

Under Houllier, we were a defensive team, with Gerrard sitting deep much more

Under Benitez we're still deemed defensive, although Gerrard has been giving a bit more freedom. The team as a whole is defensive. Similar to that of Houlliers team.
This has been proven all season, against the bigger, and more importantly against the smaller teams where we've failed to break them down because of our lack of creativity. We're still set up as a hard working defensive unit.

Alonso is a better player than Hamann could ever have wished to be, and to suggest that his facing 2-on-1's were his own fault, when it was patently obvious his midfield partner was selling him up the river, is daft, IMHO

Thats complete tosh, if you reckon that well then I'd just say you failed to see all the "unsung" things Hamman did. Like we've supposedly missed all Xabi's "unsung" things. Fact of the matter is Hamman was a better defensive midfielder than Alonso is. Their two different players, like I said ones a ' holding mid, the other is a deep -lying-playmaker. That is what Xabi is, the latter, and his playmaking this season has been non-exsistant. Therefore because of different styles of players (Hamman/Alonso) thats why IMO Hamman played better as a partnership with Gerrard than Alonso has done.

Mascherano is a brilliant player, but he just isn't good enough to dislodge Xabi for an extended period IMHO. He doesn't have the tools his Hispanic cousin possesses.
It's all well and good saying "Mascherano and Gerrard are a better pair", but what you seem to forget is - who's going to find Stevie's runs without Xabi in the team? That's right - no one. No one in the side that faced Sh*tski has any vision whatsoever, aside from Gerrard and Alonso

No. So why was Mascha picked ahead of Xabi against Chelsea at home, why was Xabi the only first team regular that got run-outs against Portmouth and Fulham and all the "lesser important games" in between times. I think you'll find that Mascha can and will next season dislodge Alonso during the course of the season.
When has Xabi picked out Gerrards runs continuesly this season, it hasnt been as aparent. Because his passing this season has been below par, and I'm the team could pass a ball still without Alonso in it. I wouldnt rely on just Alonso to pick out passes to cut open defences, because he hasnt.

That's a pretty damning reason why Alonso stays. By all means, play a 5 man midfield, or a 4-4-1-1 formation and incorporate all 3. But to suggest that Xabi is the weak link is ludicrous. The guy is a magician.

I'm not saying he's a weak link. He's a deep-lying plamaker right ? He'll need a holding mid next to him, Masch and Gerrard just infront too produce a threat and creativity that Mascha and Alonso both lack.
A bit like Milan, They have Pirlo - their deep-lying plamaker, then Gattuso the defensive mid. And Kaka in front.
All I'm saying on first glimpses, if you played a flat 4, the two center mids would look better in Gerrard/Mashsa. Alonso and Gerrard we all know doesnt really work, neither are natural holding mids, this is why we look vulnrable to counter attacks at times with them in the middle.

The fact is you don't sell your best players, and from what I can see our best players are:

Alonso, Gerrard, Carragher, Kewell and Reina

I never spoke of selling our best players.

My replies are in the white boxes, I quoted myself

I disagree.

Watching Houllier's Liverpool at Anfield was like watching Benitez's more cautious lineups away at Old Shatford, Shatford Bridge and The Emerates.

Rafa gives Gerrard the freedom to go basically wherever he wants, and only now that we have Mascherano ASWELL as Alonso, can we finally see a real opportunity to play the 4-5-1 Rafa loves.

Under Houllier, Gerrard was a box-to-box midfielder, jumping into tackles every 2 minutes. Now, he's not.

THAT is the difference, and THAT is why you cannot compare Stevie and Hamann with him and Alonso.

It's like saying "A Mondeo is better than a Ferrari with a trailer on the back."

Hamann was helped by Gerrard, whereas 9 times out of 10, Alonso is hindered by Gerrard's inability to choose when to go and when to stay.

Thing is - how many times was Hamann exposed by Gerrard under Houllier? Hardly ever, as Gerrard simply did not roam anywhere near as much.

Now, the lad (quite rightly, I have to say), has been instructed to go forward more often, but it's the timing he still hasn't fully grasped.
(And one performance against Sh*tski doesn't mean Mascherano solves it all - for my money Xabi's heroics against Juventus and Sh*tski away in 2005 where far, far better.)

How many times did Barcelona, Real Madrid, Man United, Sh*tski, and a whole host of other top European clubs ever come in with serious interest for Hamann? I take it all these top managers of top, rich teams were all wrong, too? These were the competitors we faced for Xabi's signature.
Who fought us for Hamann's? Oh, that's right...

Diddy was a fantastic servant to this club, and I shall always have nothing but praise for the lad, but to suggest he was ever as good as Xabi really boggles my mind. He was solid and dependable, but he didn't dictate the tempo, he didn't have killer passes, I think he scored about 5 goals in his entire time here, and, let's not forget, he was replaced by Xabi instantly. I take it Rafa was wrong, too?

Regarding Xabi's none-start against Sh*tski - didn't Gerrard get dropped in the first CL away match this season vs PSV? I take it he was getting usurped by Zenden, then?

One game, where Xabi was obviously knackered, means Rafa's getting shut? Didn't he come on and take a penalty, then? Where was Mascherano then? Kuyt's perfectly good goal in extra time was as a result of Xabi's impetus - something that would never have happened if he weren't on the pitch. Little things make big differences.

I take it you totally missed Mascherano's f*cking pathetic play Vs Charlton, where he gifted them the opener, and could have caused another 2? That's ok, though, I suppose, 'cos he's not Xabi...

How about his woeful passes, doing his best to imitate Sissoko? Again, though - people only see what they want to see.

I'm guessing the impact Alonso had when he came on on Sunday surpassed you, too?

Oh, and Xabi is a holding midfielder with the ABILITY to playmake.

If he were a playmaker, he wouldn't control the tempo, dictate the play, tackle, track back or stay back at corners...

by **112-1077774096** » Wed May 16, 2007 5:35 am

opinions are like @rseholes mate, everyone has one, doesnt make yours right, we will see this summer what happens, maybe he will stay, maybe he will go, none of us know thats for sure.

like you all say rafa knows best, so lets wait and see, and on sunday i wouldnt really say alonso changed the game, i was lucky to watch the whole game mate, kewell changed the game.

its great that you are so defensive of alonso mate, but you are doing that while slagging off mash, so next season if alonso goes are you going to support mash or resent him for alonso going

by **account deleted by request** » Wed May 16, 2007 5:42 am

Hamann and Mascherano are better defensive midfield players Lando not better players. Xabi is a deep lying playmaker with additional defensive duties (a compliment to him!) No-one is saying Xabi is cr@p just that if you want to play him with Gerrard you need a 3 man midfield, whereas with Hamann and Mascherano, Gerrard could play as a pair. Gerrard couldn't play with Momo as a pair, that doesn't mean Gerrards cr@p or Sissoko for that matter.

by **Lando_Griffin** » Wed May 16, 2007 5:48 am

peewee wrote:opinions are like @rseholes mate, everyone has one, doesnt make yours right, we will see this summer what happens, maybe he will stay, maybe he will go, none of us know thats for sure.

like you all say rafa knows best, so lets wait and see, and on sunday i wouldnt really say alonso changed the game, i was lucky to watch the whole game mate, kewell changed the game.

its great that you are so defensive of alonso mate, but you are doing that while slagging off mash, so next season if alonso goes are you going to support mash or resent him for alonso going

I like Mascherano. I think he's a brilliant addition to the team, but I will point out his faults if people refuse to see them, (whilst touting the lad as a suitable replacement for a superior player).

Thing is - folks can't slag one player, then ignore another's faults for their own gain. It's just plain wrong.

(And before anyone starts - Alonso DOES have faults. Pace could be better, agility isn't fantastic, his mobility isn't the best, and his heading isn't great. I don't see too much wrong elsewhere, though. He is technically the best player we have by far, and is the best ball-player we have had for many years. He is also the kind of player you don't miss until he's gone.)

Be careful what you wish for, folks.

by **Lando_Griffin** » Wed May 16, 2007 5:52 am

s@int wrote:Hamann and Mascherano are better defensive midfield players Lando not better players. Xabi is a deep lying playmaker with additional defensive duties (a compliment to him!) No-one is saying Xabi is cr@p just that if you want to play him with Gerrard you need a 3 man midfield, whereas with Hamann and Mascherano, Gerrard could play as a pair. Gerrard couldn't play with Momo as a pair, that doesn't mean Gerrards cr@p or Sissoko for that matter.

I think it's a myth that they cannot play together. I actually think Rafa may over-estimate Alonso's abilities, because if you watch, Gerrard is not as attacking whenever Alonso isn't behind him. It;s as though Rafa has said to Stevie "do not roam as much, as without Xabi behind you, we'll be in trouble."

Don't believe me? You watch - I bet you'll see that Gerrard sits back a lot more whenever Xabi's not playing.

by **account deleted by request** » Wed May 16, 2007 5:56 am

Lando_Griffin wrote:
s@int wrote:Hamann and Mascherano are better defensive midfield players Lando not better players. Xabi is a deep lying playmaker with additional defensive duties (a compliment to him!) No-one is saying Xabi is cr@p just that if you want to play him with Gerrard you need a 3 man midfield, whereas with Hamann and Mascherano, Gerrard could play as a pair. Gerrard couldn't play with Momo as a pair, that doesn't mean Gerrards cr@p or Sissoko for that matter.

I think it's a myth that they cannot play together. I actually think Rafa may over-estimate Alonso's abilities, because if you watch, Gerrard is not as attacking whenever Alonso isn't behind him. It;s as though Rafa has said to Stevie "do not roam as much, as without Xabi behind you, we'll be in trouble."

Don't believe me? You watch - I bet you'll see that Gerrard sits back a lot more whenever Xabi's not playing.

Gerrard doesnt sit back to cover for Alonso's absence defensively but to cover for Xabi's absence creatively. Without Xabi's passing game Gerrard takes over the role. Mascherano and Hamann are better than Xabi defensively mate. They just dont have the same range of passing though.

by **Lando_Griffin** » Wed May 16, 2007 6:00 am

s@int wrote:
Lando_Griffin wrote:
s@int wrote:Hamann and Mascherano are better defensive midfield players Lando not better players. Xabi is a deep lying playmaker with additional defensive duties (a compliment to him!) No-one is saying Xabi is cr@p just that if you want to play him with Gerrard you need a 3 man midfield, whereas with Hamann and Mascherano, Gerrard could play as a pair. Gerrard couldn't play with Momo as a pair, that doesn't mean Gerrards cr@p or Sissoko for that matter.

I think it's a myth that they cannot play together. I actually think Rafa may over-estimate Alonso's abilities, because if you watch, Gerrard is not as attacking whenever Alonso isn't behind him. It;s as though Rafa has said to Stevie "do not roam as much, as without Xabi behind you, we'll be in trouble."

Don't believe me? You watch - I bet you'll see that Gerrard sits back a lot more whenever Xabi's not playing.

Gerrard doesnt sit back to cover for Alonso's absence defensively but to cover for Xabi's absence creatively. Without Xabi's passing game Gerrard takes over the role. Mascherano and Hamann are better than Xabi defensively mate. They just dont have the same range of passing though.

Personally, I disagree. The only area I can see where Xabi isn't as good as either of those two, is in the sliding tackle. Fact is, he's that good he doesn't need to jump in. He gets them without risking a booking.

FWIW I believe Alonso is far superior in everything else. (There's more to defending than slide-tackles.)

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