Liverpool FC Forum

by **LFC2007** » Tue May 15, 2007 8:20 pm

ivor_the_injun wrote:The point about our away form I think is linked to the problem we have with tending to recruit players from overseas. We almost certainly sell the club to these Spanish and Brazilian kids by telling them about these famous European nights and how marvellous the atmosphere is at Anfield, and then they arrive and suddenly first game of the season is a freezing afternoon at Bramhall Lane.

At lower league Brazilian clubs, I'd imagine the atmosphere is the same pretty every week. But English football has these anomalies where a player in the Championship can play in front of 400 one week in a relegation dogfight, and suddenly next weekend they're in front of 40,000 at the Stadium Of Light. Guys in the lower divisions that have come from an English footballing background get this, and are able to put the same level of commitment into their performances even if it's a reserve game in front of 3 men and a greyhound. I just don't think Rafa gets that some of the players he's bringing in can't raise their game in the mud like that.

This isn't a "buy English" drum-banging, but maybe Rafa needs to fine-tune his eye for a player to recognise that some games his players won't necessarily be on pitches that can accommodate silky pass-and-move football. Alonso has got that adaptability, but players like Mascherano haven't, for example.

a) How would you know how we sell our club to these 'spanish' and 'Brazilian' kids? Have you been in a meeting with Rafa and Rick when they are trying to convince a player to sign? Exactly how many Brazilians have played for us anyway?

b) It's not about nationality, it's about the individual. While I agree with you that some South American/Spanish players in particular may find it difficult to accustom to some of the harsh conditions in this league, it is about the mentality of the individual player.

c) The atmosphere in Brazilian league matches can be just as dour if not more so than league matches here given that the stadia over there are set back from the pitch. The atmosphere in South American stadia can also be just as hostile as over here aswell, except that they have problems with hooligans and it is not uncommon to see a riot break out each week. Many have to be abandoned because of security problems. If you think these guys aren't battle hardened and ready for a fight on a muddy cold day, then you're wrong. It can rain just as heavily in parts of Brazil as it does in England. These Brazilians come from far tougher backgrounds than most of our British born players. Anyway what relevance is the Brazilian league to us anyway, Aurelio's the only Brazilian who's played for us so far!

d) How has Alonso got the 'adaptability' and Mascherano hasn't. We've hardly seen Mascherano in the league for us this season, so what are you on about. Just because he's South American doesn't mean he can't adapt to a hard graft premiership match, of course he can, that's nonsense.

by **LFC2007** » Tue May 15, 2007 8:23 pm

Alonso 2007 wrote:21 points behind Man Utd at the end, is awful for a club like lfc.

we are no nearer to winning the league, than at any time under Gerard Houllier, after 3 seasons of Benitez Reign.

Liverpool 18 league titles, Man Utd 16. Too close for comfort.

One thing Benitez has not achieved in any of his three seasons/ teams, is consistency.

2 reasons:

1. He changes it around too much.
2. He has a distinct lack of top drawer quality in the side, apart from a few core players, Carra, Gerrard, Alonso, Reina.

Man Utd, Chelsea, and Arsenal will go out any strengthen further this summer, so its not as if we will have any advantage next year.

Who we gonna buy?

Hows about, Kaka 30m, Owen 13m, Villa 10m, or Ronaldhinio maybe? Players who can open teams up!

It's snow joke this you know.!

If we don't happen to win the Champins league final, in my book, its been disapointing this season.

You guys can analyze players/ tactics/ rafa, all you like, but there is a definate lack of quality there.

We know that, but he hasn't had anywhere near the funds of those two to bring in that type of quality. He's had to buy players for positional and depth purposes rather than going out and spending £10+ each time on a top class player.

by **Alonso 2007** » Tue May 15, 2007 8:38 pm

well theres talk of him getting 100m this summer. or at least a substantial amount.

3 top drawer players is all that is required.

Owen should be first back, and his 20+ a season goals when fit. working for Sam Ate-all-the-ryce, has not got to be appealing for Michael.

by **LFC2007** » Tue May 15, 2007 8:43 pm

I agree, he is going to be backed this summer. I disagree with you about Owen however, I think he'll give it at least a season under Allardyce. I think he feels he owes them a few goals after all his injuries.

But you just never know in football, who would have thought Mascherano and Tevez would go to West Ham?

Likewise with Owen, I didn't think he'd end up at Newcastle.

by **Alonso 2007** » Tue May 15, 2007 8:59 pm

LFC2007 wrote:I think he feels he owes them a few goals after all his injuries.

Since when does loyalty and Michael Owen come in the same bracket?

He left LFC for hitting the big time at Real Madrid, and never gave Rafa a chance to turn it around.

Didnt that backfire on him bigtime. He is probably still sick

by **bigmick** » Tue May 15, 2007 9:22 pm

The first bit is quoted from Ivor the Injun's post from earlier. The second bit, starting from a) is from LFC 2007. One day I must work out how to do this multi quote thing.

LFC2007 wrote:We almost certainly sell the club to these Spanish and Brazilian kids by telling them about these famous European nights and how marvellous the atmosphere is at Anfield, and then they arrive and suddenly first game of the season is a freezing afternoon at Bramhall Lane.

a) How would you know how we sell our club to these 'spanish' and 'Brazilian' kids? Have you been in a meeting with Rafa and Rick when they are trying to convince a player to sign? Exactly how many Brazilians have played for us anyway?

Whoa threre tiger. I know you've had a run in or two with Stu LFC, but there's really no need for the tone with Ivor, one of the most mild mannered posters on the board.

Of course he's never been in a meeting when players are signed, but I think it's reasonable to assume that much vaunted youngsters such as Lucas would probably sign for us based on our European prowess, on the atmosphere at Anfield which is beamed around the World rather than the fact we've finished third in the Prem these last two years.

Some people on here deserve a good ear-bashing sometimes (I may even be one of them) but some don't. Ivor's well and truly in the second group.

by **destro** » Tue May 15, 2007 9:24 pm

NOBODY except for Owen himself and LFC actually knows the reasons behind Owen leaving , we can all speculate and go off what the papers said about it.

We came close to losing Gerrard and there was mixed feelings there, traitor, fans burning his shirt etc,etc, but when you read his book it all becomes a lot clearer.

Its still all specualation at the moment that he could sign for us, but if there is even a slight possibilty we will be getting one of the best around and for 9 million

The same people who call Owen for leaving will be the same ones who buy his a shirt with his name and number on it if he signs for us ( wonder how many will actually admit it ! )

by **Bad Bob** » Tue May 15, 2007 9:30 pm

s@int wrote:Can Garcia do it over a long hard premiership season though Bob? I have no doubts about his ability and value in tight games against top sides, but over the course of season how many games will we see the "little ball waster"? I think if we are to make an effective challenge we need a more consistant performer. Thats not to say, sell Garcia but bring in someone else who can share the creative duties but perhaps more consistantly.

That's exactly my point, mate. In addition to Garcia and Kewell, we need to bring in at least a couple of players who have that little bit of creativity to unlock defenses.

Garcia's a great asset to have in the squad but I certainly don't think we can rely on him week in, week out. Same goes for Kewell, given his injury woes. I'd definitely want to keep them both, though.

by **yckatbjywtbiastkamb** » Tue May 15, 2007 11:20 pm

destro wrote:NOBODY except for Owen himself and LFC actually knows the reasons behind Owen leaving , we can all speculate and go off what the papers said about it.

We came close to losing Gerrard and there was mixed feelings there, traitor, fans burning his shirt etc,etc, but when you read his book it all becomes a lot clearer.

Its still all specualation at the moment that he could sign for us, but if there is even a slight possibilty we will be getting one of the best around and for 9 million

The same people who call Owen for leaving will be the same ones who buy his a shirt with his name and number on it if he signs for us ( wonder how many will actually admit it ! )

i wouldnt buy owen back at all, never mind spending 9m on a player that has horrendous injuries.
michael owen dragged out his contract and the fans with it, at least kevin keegan came out at the start of his final season and said ` look, there`s more money abroad and i want to earn enough money in my career so i dont have to run a pub or a petrol station when i retire, but i`ll promise you i`ll give my all this season`.
we won the league, lost the f.a cup final to man united in such a manner even tommy docherty wonders how he won it, liverpool were that dominant, and then we won the european cup for the first time in our history the following wednesday with keegan running west german star fullback berti vogts ragged.
thats how you leave a club you love, not saying the only reason you havent re-signed a contract is that your agent is on holiday for 3 months etc etc. and then bale out.
owen knew, or at least had a good idea he was thinking of bailing out with 18 months on his contract, the least he could have done is say he wanted to leave and then at least the club probably would have got 25 million plus for him.
we needed the money too because moores was running low on cash.
owen left this club when our status as a major player was hanging by a thread (but benitez saved us) and on top of that he ran his contract out to such an extent he didnt even give us a pay day.
i can assure you i certainly would not buy a shirt with michael owens name on it.

by **neilE** » Tue May 15, 2007 11:25 pm

firstly, I haven't posted on here for months having been bored sick if the childish sniping in every thread - so it was a very pleasant surprise to spend an hour reading a thread from start to finish with nothing (almost) but sensible football comment. Right. It shows how far we've come in 3 years that anyone could look at a Champions league final appearance could be thought of as "underacheiveing" - but then I remember people were saying "what if we hadn't won the European Cup" 2 years ago, when our league form was much worse. The fact it is a massive achievement. Our bad league form was the first 10 games, when neither players nor manager got to grips - I was one of the "doom and gloom" posters then, but after that we have been as good as anyone. We nearly beat the scum in the spring and things might have been so different if we had. Rafa sensibly didn't bother with the league after that, except to make sure we finished at least 4th, to concentrate on the CL and its paid off. The question for me now is are we good enough to move on next season, or do we need so many more quality players, we'll have another "development" season. I think the key will be Mascherano - some of you seem to be unsure, but I believe he will be one of the best players the world has seen in his position - and Lando, for all your valid defence of Alonso, he hasn't had his best season, and Mascherano is improving all the time. Kewell? forget it - he'll be out injured most of next season, just like the previous ones. Agger has had his first full season. Usually it takes at least a year for anyone in that position to get it right, and him and Carra next season will be close to unbeatable which bodes well. Give us a clinical striker, and it could just make the difference. Bring it on (but first next wednesday- its a huge privelige to be a supporter of a team in that final - enjoy it!)

by **account deleted by request** » Tue May 15, 2007 11:33 pm

yckatbjywtbiastkamb wrote:
destro wrote:NOBODY except for Owen himself and LFC actually knows the reasons behind Owen leaving , we can all speculate and go off what the papers said about it.

We came close to losing Gerrard and there was mixed feelings there, traitor, fans burning his shirt etc,etc, but when you read his book it all becomes a lot clearer.

Its still all specualation at the moment that he could sign for us, but if there is even a slight possibilty we will be getting one of the best around and for 9 million

The same people who call Owen for leaving will be the same ones who buy his a shirt with his name and number on it if he signs for us ( wonder how many will actually admit it ! )

i wouldnt buy owen back at all, never mind spending 9m on a player that has horrendous injuries.
michael owen dragged out his contract and the fans with it, at least kevin keegan came out at the start of his final season and said ` look, there`s more money abroad and i want to earn enough money in my career so i dont have to run a pub or a petrol station when i retire, but i`ll promise you i`ll give my all this season`.
we won the league, lost the f.a cup final to man united in such a manner even tommy docherty wonders how he won it, liverpool were that dominant, and then we won the european cup for the first time in our history the following wednesday with keegan running west german star fullback berti vogts ragged.
thats how you leave a club you love, not saying the only reason you havent re-signed a contract is that your agent is on holiday for 3 months etc etc. and then bale out.
owen knew, or at least had a good idea he was thinking of bailing out with 18 months on his contract, the least he could have done is say he wanted to leave and then at least the club probably would have got 25 million plus for him.
we needed the money too because moores was running low on cash.
owen left this club when our status as a major player was hanging by a thread (but benitez saved us) and on top of that he ran his contract out to such an extent he didnt even give us a pay day.
i can assure you i certainly would not buy a shirt with michael owens name on it.

I can't argue with your post mate, I just have a different (more cynical) view on modern day footballers. If we buy Owen back we are buying a goalscorer not his loyalty, anyone who would take Newcastle's money for 2 years while playing only 14 games and then leave them without a backward glance is not going to give you loyalty. Hopefully what he will give you is goals, maybe even enough to bring the league back.

by **LFC2007** » Tue May 15, 2007 11:57 pm

bigmick wrote:The first bit is quoted from Ivor the Injun's post from earlier. The second bit, starting from a) is from LFC 2007. One day I must work out how to do this multi quote thing.
LFC2007 wrote:We almost certainly sell the club to these Spanish and Brazilian kids by telling them about these famous European nights and how marvellous the atmosphere is at Anfield, and then they arrive and suddenly first game of the season is a freezing afternoon at Bramhall Lane.

a) How would you know how we sell our club to these 'spanish' and 'Brazilian' kids? Have you been in a meeting with Rafa and Rick when they are trying to convince a player to sign? Exactly how many Brazilians have played for us anyway?

Whoa threre tiger. I know you've had a run in or two with Stu LFC, but there's really no need for the tone with Ivor, one of the most mild mannered posters on the board.

Of course he's never been in a meeting when players are signed, but I think it's reasonable to assume that much vaunted youngsters such as Lucas would probably sign for us based on our European prowess, on the atmosphere at Anfield which is beamed around the World rather than the fact we've finished third in the Prem these last two years.

Some people on here deserve a good ear-bashing sometimes (I may even be one of them) but some don't. Ivor's well and truly in the second group.

We are Liverpool, a club with a great History, the greatest fan base, the most successful club in England.

'Selling' the club or whatever you want to call it incorporates all of these things and more. It's not a case of okay they've been doing exceptionally well in Europe I'll join them, that will be one of the factors.

It's not a reasonable assumption, its nonsense. You don't join a club based purely on one competition and the European atmosphere at Anfield, it incorporates everything, the people in the club, the premier league being the strongest league in the world etc.....

Some posters on here speak as if they're in the board room sitting next to Rafa when he talks to these players, Europe will be a big factor, but are we selling it to these kids based on Europe alone - absolutely not.

These Brazilian kids are no mugs, a cold muddy day at Bramhall lane isn't going to put them off. I've got friends from Brazil and to insinuate that they are put off by a cold day and muddy conditions is derogatory, many of these lads have had a far harder upbringing than any of our British players.

I have no problem with fair comment Mick, but that is simply nonsensical and conjectural.

I was not being abbrasive I was merely making my point.

by **ivor_the_injun** » Wed May 16, 2007 2:46 am

Far from being derogatory about anyone's upbringing (!), I'm pointing out that it's a completely different ballgame over here than it is in South America. I don't doubt that the games can be fiery local occasions, but it's simply not the same quality or intensity. More than that though, unlike the national sides, the domestic and regional competitions over there get no real worldwide coverage, and as such simply don't seem to have the weight and clout of the likes of the Premiership, the FA Cup and the Champions League. I'd personally love to be able to watch live coverage of - say - Brazilian league footy at the weekend on BBC2 or something, but there you go.

I've seen coverage of English football overseas, and it's plainly weighted towards the big 4. I'm guessing it's the same in South America too - it'll be Michael Owen this, Stevie G that, Rooney and Ronaldo the other. What up-and-coming youngsters may have advertised and presented to them back home isn't necessarily a good grounding for the experience. That's my point. I made absolutely no claim to knowing what Rafa and co said or did, but if a player comes to the club for talks, you bet your f*cking b*llocks a walk round the trophy room is part of the big sell.

"Brazilian kids" was a vague example anyway - I know we've only got Aurelio, but with Pato, Lucas and Amauri either done deals or strongly linked, you see my point. To be honest, it's the likes of Paletta and Gonzalez that I'm really getting at - from Argentina and Chile respectively, and seemingly completely out of synch with the English game, in spite of rave reviews before their arrivals.

Mascherano I really, really rate, but I've seen bits and pieces in away league performances now that is starting to look like a pattern. Things like slack passing and a little bit less snap about his attempts at tackles - I look at the way he was putting himself about the pitch in the second leg against Chelsea, while against Man City last month he didn't really look particularly bothered. I didn't say that he won't go on and be a force wherever he plays, but right now there's a gulf between the quality of his home performances and his away performances. It's partly a question of mentality, and it's also about adaptability in terms of how the team approach away fixtures.

As I said - "Rafa needs to fine-tune his eye for a player to recognise that some games his players won't necessarily be on pitches that can accommodate silky pass-and-move football."

I know full well it's not about nationality, and that's exactly my point. We've had individuals come to the club that simply aren't cut out for the top level of the English game. Some of these have been English, I hasten to add. I would prefer these individuals were the ones we didn't go in for.

by **Lando_Griffin** » Wed May 16, 2007 3:56 am

yckatbjywtbiastkamb wrote:
destro wrote:NOBODY except for Owen himself and LFC actually knows the reasons behind Owen leaving , we can all speculate and go off what the papers said about it.

We came close to losing Gerrard and there was mixed feelings there, traitor, fans burning his shirt etc,etc, but when you read his book it all becomes a lot clearer.

Its still all specualation at the moment that he could sign for us, but if there is even a slight possibilty we will be getting one of the best around and for 9 million

The same people who call Owen for leaving will be the same ones who buy his a shirt with his name and number on it if he signs for us ( wonder how many will actually admit it ! )

i wouldnt buy owen back at all, never mind spending 9m on a player that has horrendous injuries.
michael owen dragged out his contract and the fans with it, at least kevin keegan came out at the start of his final season and said ` look, there`s more money abroad and i want to earn enough money in my career so i dont have to run a pub or a petrol station when i retire, but i`ll promise you i`ll give my all this season`.
we won the league, lost the f.a cup final to man united in such a manner even tommy docherty wonders how he won it, liverpool were that dominant, and then we won the european cup for the first time in our history the following wednesday with keegan running west german star fullback berti vogts ragged.
thats how you leave a club you love, not saying the only reason you havent re-signed a contract is that your agent is on holiday for 3 months etc etc. and then bale out.
owen knew, or at least had a good idea he was thinking of bailing out with 18 months on his contract, the least he could have done is say he wanted to leave and then at least the club probably would have got 25 million plus for him.
we needed the money too because moores was running low on cash.
owen left this club when our status as a major player was hanging by a thread (but benitez saved us) and on top of that he ran his contract out to such an extent he didnt even give us a pay day.
i can assure you i certainly would not buy a shirt with michael owens name on it.

Me either - I prefer Andrex, to be honest.

Soft, strong and thoroughly absorbant.

by **LFC2007** » Wed May 16, 2007 3:01 pm

ivor_the_injun wrote:Far from being derogatory about anyone's upbringing (!), I'm pointing out that it's a completely different ballgame over here than it is in South America. I don't doubt that the games can be fiery local occasions, but it's simply not the same quality or intensity. More than that though, unlike the national sides, the domestic and regional competitions over there get no real worldwide coverage, and as such simply don't seem to have the weight and clout of the likes of the Premiership, the FA Cup and the Champions League. I'd personally love to be able to watch live coverage of - say - Brazilian league footy at the weekend on BBC2 or something, but there you go.

I've seen coverage of English football overseas, and it's plainly weighted towards the big 4. I'm guessing it's the same in South America too - it'll be Michael Owen this, Stevie G that, Rooney and Ronaldo the other. What up-and-coming youngsters may have advertised and presented to them back home isn't necessarily a good grounding for the experience. That's my point. I made absolutely no claim to knowing what Rafa and co said or did, but if a player comes to the club for talks, you bet your f*cking b*llocks a walk round the trophy room is part of the big sell.

"Brazilian kids" was a vague example anyway - I know we've only got Aurelio, but with Pato, Lucas and Amauri either done deals or strongly linked, you see my point. To be honest, it's the likes of Paletta and Gonzalez that I'm really getting at - from Argentina and Chile respectively, and seemingly completely out of synch with the English game, in spite of rave reviews before their arrivals.

Mascherano I really, really rate, but I've seen bits and pieces in away league performances now that is starting to look like a pattern. Things like slack passing and a little bit less snap about his attempts at tackles - I look at the way he was putting himself about the pitch in the second leg against Chelsea, while against Man City last month he didn't really look particularly bothered. I didn't say that he won't go on and be a force wherever he plays, but right now there's a gulf between the quality of his home performances and his away performances. It's partly a question of mentality, and it's also about adaptability in terms of how the team approach away fixtures.

As I said - "Rafa needs to fine-tune his eye for a player to recognise that some games his players won't necessarily be on pitches that can accommodate silky pass-and-move football."

I know full well it's not about nationality, and that's exactly my point. We've had individuals come to the club that simply aren't cut out for the top level of the English game. Some of these have been English, I hasten to add. I would prefer these individuals were the ones we didn't go in for.

1) It may not be the same quality but the intensity is certainly there. Football in South America is massive, without the same organisation as in England, but they get big crowds devoted fans and a hell of an atmosphere.

2) You're wrong about the coverage of South American football. You can watch Brazilian football daily on record tv on sky channel 810, channel 5 do a round up of Brazilian/South American football including the copa libertadores. Sky sports cover developments in South American football with football Mundial and on sky sports news, and eurosport cover South American football aswell. So the coverage, if you want to watch it, is there. Of course, the coverage is not as comprehensive as the premiership, but most other leagues in the world aren't covered as well as the premiership is.

3) Although there is aheavy weighting to the top four teams, to suggest that seeing the like sof Rooney, Ronaldo and Gerrard etc. is not a good 'grounding' for them is nonsense, these boys put up with a lot more ruff and tumble in their own leagues, they can handle it.

3) You made no claim to know what Rafa does when trying to sign a player but you said: 'We almost certainly sell the club to these Spanish and Brazilian kids by telling them about these famous European nights'. To which I replied: 'We are Liverpool, a club with a great History, the greatest fan base, the most successful club in England.
'Selling' the club or whatever you want to call it incorporates all of these things and more. It's not a case of okay they've been doing exceptionally well in Europe I'll join them, that will be one of the factors'.
European success is one part of why a player would want to join Liverpool, the strength and depth of the Premiership is another reason, our success in winning 18 league titles, our FA cup and league cup successes are alo things they will see in the trophy cabinet at Anfield. You are effectively trying to suggest that these players aren't aware what they're getting themselves into just because they're from South America, i.e. that the European aspect of our success is a smokescreen for everything else, it's just nonsense.

4) With regard to Mascherano, he's played 10 games with us, the matches in the premier league are ones hardly riding on us winning the league. It wasn't just Mascherano who played poorly against Man City the whole performance lacked emphaisis. You have made the judgement that 'Mascherano hasn't got that adaptability' after 10 games, most of which were riding on little else than achieving a top four finish. You simply don't know if he has this adaptability, Alonso didn't play particularly well away to Chelsea in the Champions League, nor has he played well away from home against some of the lesser opposition this season. So the comparison is unfair and premature.

5) The thrust of your argument was that the so called 'silky' football of South America is something that those players have trouble in adapting to when they come here, well I can tell you it is not all 'silky pass and move football' in South America. Therefore, you were suggesting that it was a problem endemic to South Americans, which is unfair and untrue. You've changed your tune now, but before your suggestion was that these South Americans can't hack a cold wet day at Bramhall lane. Which is nonsense, they have torrential rain in Brazil, it's not as cold, but the atmosphere can be just as potent.

Liverpool FC Forum

A hugely disappointing season....on many fronts - Let not athens distract you....

Who is online