Liverpool FC Forum

by **account deleted by request** » Tue May 15, 2007 10:14 pm

I wouldnt mind a cheeky £10million bid for Shevchenko if we could afford his wages to be honest. Get Owen as well and we would have two top strikers for £20million.

Last season to swop or sell Alonso would have been unthinkable, now its not only thinkable it seems it may even be a possibility. It shows not only the great impression Mascherano has made in such a short time but how desperate we are for goals and a great striker.

by **Bad Bob** » Tue May 15, 2007 10:36 pm

s@int wrote:Last season to swop or sell Alonso would have been unthinkable, now its not only thinkable it seems it may even be a possibility. It shows not only the great impression Mascherano has made in such a short time but how desperate we are for goals and a great striker.

Alternatively, it shows how fickle some supporters (not you Saint, but some on here) can be when a few sub-par performances by an established first-team regular are compared to some heartening displays by the new kid on the block.

I'll be the first to say that Mascherano has been very good for us and I'll be thrilled if he signs a long-term contract. But, I also believe he's benefiting from a nice honeymoon period with supporters while Alonso gets treated like yesterday's leftovers. Not once but twice the Argentinian served Charlton the ball on a silver platter on Sunday...the first leading to their goal. Had Alonso done that, some people would have been offering to drive him to the airport to catch the next plane to Barcelona. As it was, there was barely a ripple about Mascherano's mistakes. Conversely, Xabi scored an important goal and almost added a second but, again, there was barely a ripple about that. IMO, some people are losing perspective when assessing the two players.

At some point early in the new season, Alonso--who I am firmly convinced will still be a Liverpool player--will put in a positively superlative performance and everyone will be back singing his praises. It is guaranteed to happen. Likewise, at some point Mascherano will have a shocker and--with the honeymoon period over--some people will question whether he's worth his place in the side. It's all swings and roundabouts. The point is, we have three world class central midfielders in our ranks...why not celebrate that rather than wondering whether one of them needs to be sacrificed?

by **aCe'** » Tue May 15, 2007 11:00 pm

Bad Bob wrote:
s@int wrote:Last season to swop or sell Alonso would have been unthinkable, now its not only thinkable it seems it may even be a possibility. It shows not only the great impression Mascherano has made in such a short time but how desperate we are for goals and a great striker.

Alternatively, it shows how fickle some supporters (not you Saint, but some on here) can be when a few sub-par performances by an established first-team regular are compared to some heartening displays by the new kid on the block.

I'll be the first to say that Mascherano has been very good for us and I'll be thrilled if he signs a long-term contract. But, I also believe he's benefiting from a nice honeymoon period with supporters while Alonso gets treated like yesterday's leftovers. Not once but twice the Argentinian served Charlton the ball on a silver platter on Sunday...the first leading to their goal. Had Alonso done that, some people would have been offering to drive him to the airport to catch the next plane to Barcelona. As it was, there was barely a ripple about Mascherano's mistakes. Conversely, Xabi scored an important goal and almost added a second but, again, there was barely a ripple about that. IMO, some people are losing perspective when assessing the two players.

At some point early in the new season, Alonso--who I am firmly convinced will still be a Liverpool player--will put in a positively superlative performance and everyone will be back singing his praises. It is guaranteed to happen. Likewise, at some point Mascherano will have a shocker and--with the honeymoon period over--some people will question whether he's worth his place in the side. It's all swings and roundabouts. The point is, we have three world class central midfielders in our ranks...why not celebrate that rather than wondering whether one of them needs to be sacrificed?

seriously bob... what are you going on about ?!
i said it in another thread and ill say it here again... out of mascherano and alonso... alonso is the better player at the moment... but alonso is no longer indispensible
im not talking about his below-par form this season... gerrard wasnt all that good but u dont see people offering to swap him with eto do you ?
its not about alonso's quality.. to me hes our 2nd best player after gerrard .. we need to strengthen our team though and with gerrard no longer needing to play in the right side with alll the money coming in and pennant proving to be the player we had hoped we signed, it seems some atleast one of our midfielders will sooner or later have to make room...
lucas is coming as well so thats 6 players competing for 2 central midfield spots.. one of which would be commanded by gerrard if chosen in the center of the park.

im not saying sell alonso to get 20million because i know that he is a vital plaayer in our squad.. but if an etoo deal involved alonso i wouldnt be as dissapointed as i would have been last year... knowing we have what it takes to cover his absence .

sidenote: dream on y'all.. etoo is not coming and xabi is not leaving

by **Bad Bob** » Tue May 15, 2007 11:49 pm

aCe' wrote:
Bad Bob wrote:
s@int wrote:Last season to swop or sell Alonso would have been unthinkable, now its not only thinkable it seems it may even be a possibility. It shows not only the great impression Mascherano has made in such a short time but how desperate we are for goals and a great striker.

Alternatively, it shows how fickle some supporters (not you Saint, but some on here) can be when a few sub-par performances by an established first-team regular are compared to some heartening displays by the new kid on the block.

I'll be the first to say that Mascherano has been very good for us and I'll be thrilled if he signs a long-term contract. But, I also believe he's benefiting from a nice honeymoon period with supporters while Alonso gets treated like yesterday's leftovers. Not once but twice the Argentinian served Charlton the ball on a silver platter on Sunday...the first leading to their goal. Had Alonso done that, some people would have been offering to drive him to the airport to catch the next plane to Barcelona. As it was, there was barely a ripple about Mascherano's mistakes. Conversely, Xabi scored an important goal and almost added a second but, again, there was barely a ripple about that. IMO, some people are losing perspective when assessing the two players.

At some point early in the new season, Alonso--who I am firmly convinced will still be a Liverpool player--will put in a positively superlative performance and everyone will be back singing his praises. It is guaranteed to happen. Likewise, at some point Mascherano will have a shocker and--with the honeymoon period over--some people will question whether he's worth his place in the side. It's all swings and roundabouts. The point is, we have three world class central midfielders in our ranks...why not celebrate that rather than wondering whether one of them needs to be sacrificed?

seriously bob... what are you going on about ?!
i said it in another thread and ill say it here again... out of mascherano and alonso... alonso is the better player at the moment... but alonso is no longer indispensible
im not talking about his below-par form this season... gerrard wasnt all that good but u dont see people offering to swap him with eto do you ?
its not about alonso's quality.. to me hes our 2nd best player after gerrard .. we need to strengthen our team though and with gerrard no longer needing to play in the right side with alll the money coming in and pennant proving to be the player we had hoped we signed, it seems some atleast one of our midfielders will sooner or later have to make room...
lucas is coming as well so thats 6 players competing for 2 central midfield spots.. one of which would be commanded by gerrard if chosen in the center of the park.

im not saying sell alonso to get 20million because i know that he is a vital plaayer in our squad.. but if an etoo deal involved alonso i wouldnt be as dissapointed as i would have been last year... knowing we have what it takes to cover his absence .

sidenote: dream on y'all.. etoo is not coming and xabi is not leaving

Ahhh, the transfer window must be opening soon since aCe' has returned to us!

Still plumping for Trezeguet, mate?

Seriously, read my post about Eto'o above and you'll have my views. For the sake of argument, though, say we did wish to deal a CM given our strength in depth in that position--for me, Sissoko should be the one to go, not Alonso.

by **account deleted by request** » Tue May 15, 2007 11:53 pm

Yet another poll in the offing, Momo for Trezeguet or Alonso for Eto'o

by **Bad Bob** » Wed May 16, 2007 3:25 am

For some reason, aCe' opted for a "vote only" poll on selling Sissoko (who knew there was such a thing?) so I'll make my comments here, given that I brought it up a couple of posts back.

I know I played devil's advocate above and suggested Sissoko would be the one I'd sell if we needed to sell but this, to me, is the real question: Do we need to sell any of our central midfielders?

Strength in depth is what title-winning teams have (or, in the case of the Mancs, a hell of a lot of luck with player fitness). What's wrong with having four quality CMs in the side, with the new Brazilian lad bedding in as a possible fifth? By all accounts Rafa will have money to spend this summer so we don't need to sell off assets to finance incoming transfers, as was the case in previous years. Selling good players for no reason is not what a title-challenging side does.

by **66-1112520797** » Wed May 16, 2007 3:28 am

It doesnt surprise me in the slightest to hear the same old people whinning in defence of Alonso. Infact over the last two pages and baring a couple of posts I cannot see where Alonso is getting bashed by the fickle mob. I actually thought the last page was of decent discussion about our midfield and o'splayed where. Not who's being sacrificed.

FWIW I dont think Alonso has had the best of seasons for us, I dont know, many posters on here hype our players up to ridiculous rates. But I'm just compairing Alonso to the season before, where he was IMO a little more dominating in midfield, more accurate with his passing and carried an air of presence throughout the team last season.

I think Redtrader74 touched on it earlier, that a player like Xabi needs the quality around him, wide areas especially for him to produce his telling passes, and to get the team ticking from the center of the pitch. It hasnt really happened for him. But not only that Alonso has looked static and slow for us this season, and hasnt been the dominating string puller that he was last year.

I think since Mascha's come in, he's freshened up the midfield. He's added more energy and more buzz to the midfield. He hasnt played for most of the season and you can tell, he looks much fresher than Alonso, even Rafa picked him ahead a Alonso for the return fixture with Chelsea at Anfield. Does this mean Rafa is fickle for picking what he thinks is the best player to do the job in that kind of fixture? Nah ..... thought not.

I think Alonso after coming back from the WC last year and after this gruelling season needs a well earned break like the rest of the lads. He needs to come back, fitter and fresher and with the mentality that his position could be under threat as from next season. So prove to Rafa he deserves that place, because as of yet he hasnt had someone challenging for his positon (in a flat 4 midfield). He ALWAYS gets the nod and usually its Gerrard that gets shifted out wide. I cant imagine Xabi sulking about being on the bench from time to time, afterall he should know Rafa aswell as anyone and surely would expect that. But his body language of late has looked lethargic and disapointing, everyone slates Gerrard for that on here, but could that be the same with Alonso ?

by **mungi** » Wed May 16, 2007 3:36 am

i dont think rafa is gonna sell xabi. the reason y he stills plays while the other first teamers get a rest is coz rafa needs alonso to direct the team on the park in terms of his passing. Masherano alhthough he is a good player is not as a good passer of a ball as alonso. Alonso is in Rafa's plans, i guarentee u

by **Lando_Griffin** » Wed May 16, 2007 4:04 am

peewee wrote:listen guys, there really is no point discussing alonso, sabre will never admit to alonsos faults (and he does have them), i think alonso wont be here next season, but hey thats my opinion and i hope i am wrong, he is a decent player.

can we afford to do without him? well my answer to that is 'have we won the leauge with him?' so yes we can afford to do without him, i prefer to see mash in the starting line up with gerrard central, gerrard is not wide player, he isnt a winger so what the point in him being there just so we can shoe horn alonso or sissoko into the team.

i think the loss of alonso wont be a bad thing for the club, i think it would be a blessing in disguise

So what you're saying is we can do without our entire squad, then, seeing as none of them have won the league?

Let's sell Gerrard and Carragher, too, then. Make it worth while.

Odd point, to be honest Peewee...

I have to say that something tells me if Alonso were a scouser, you'd see it differently.

by **The Manhattan Project** » Wed May 16, 2007 4:10 am

Alonso isn't going to leave. Barca is a club in turmoil. We knocked them out of the CL. Getafe humiliated them in the Spanish cup and they are in a tough fight in La Liga with huge divisions among the players and uncertainty regarding the management. Who would want to join that?

by **Bad Bob** » Wed May 16, 2007 4:14 am

Bamaga man wrote:It doesnt surprise me in the slightest to hear the same old people whinning in defence of Alonso. Infact over the last two pages and baring a couple of posts I cannot see where Alonso is getting bashed by the fickle mob. I actually thought the last page was of decent discussion about our midfield and o'splayed where. Not who's being sacrificed.

FWIW I dont think Alonso has had the best of seasons for us, I dont know, many posters on here hype our players up to ridiculous rates. But I'm just compairing Alonso to the season before, where he was IMO a little more dominating in midfield, more accurate with his passing and carried and air of presence throughout the team last season.

I think Redtrader74 touched on it earlier, that a player like Xabi needs the quality around him, wide areas especially for him to produce his telling passes, and to get the team ticking from the center of the pitch. It hasnt really happened for him. But not only that Alonso has looked static and slow for us this season, and hasnt been the dominating string puller that he was last year.

I think since Mascha's come in, he's freshened up the midfield. He's added more energy and more buzz to the midfield. He hasnt played for most of the season and you can tell, he looks much fresher than Alonso, even Rafa picked him ahead a Alonso for the return fixture with Chelsea at Anfield. Does this mean Rafa is fickle for picking what he thinks is the best player to do the job in that kind of fixture? Nah ..... thought not.

I think Alonso after coming back from the WC last year and after this gruelling season needs a well earned break like the rest of the lads. He needs to come back, fitter and fresher and with the mentality that his position could be under threat as from next season. So prove to Rafa he deserves that place, because as of yet he hasnt had someone challenging for his positon (in a flat 4 midfield). He ALWAYS gets the nod and usually its Gerrard that gets shifted out wide. I cant imagine Xabi sulking about being on the bench from time to time, afterall he should know Rafa aswell as anyone and surely would expect that. But his body language of late has looked lethargic and disapointing, everyone slates Gerrard for that on here, but could that be the same with Alonso ?

Look, mate, a quick spin through several threads will see a fair few "we should swop Alonso for Eto'o" or "now that we have Mascherano, Alonso's expendable" so I'm not making it up. Yes, there have been reasoned arguments--yours included--about Alonso's form of late but there's also been a lot of knee jerk rubbish. In light of that, I'd hardly call defending the value of one of our best players over the past few seasons "whining".

To clarify, I'm not saying it's fickle to suggest he has played better in the past and needs to up his game (and I'm certainly not suggesting Rafa's being fickle with him either). What does strike me as fickle are certain supporters that are prepared to see the back of a truly class player because: a) he's had a minor dip in form, b) Mascherano's put in some excellent shifts and c) Eto'o has been linked to us in the papers.

My answer to each of those points is: a) form is temporary class is permanent--the imperious Alonso will return; b) Mascherano is subject to dips in form and injuries just like any other player and, anyway, there's not much between them when both are playing near their best; and c) there is no guarantee that Eto'o will do the business for us, so swapping one of our best players for him is madness.

As for the body language, I didn't see the point of discussing it with Gerrard and I don't see the point of discussing it with Alonso. Who can interpret what we're seeing based on a few glimpses on telly? And can we really translate expressions and body language generated in the heat of battle to larger issues concerning a player's future with the club? IMO, I don't think we can.

by **Lando_Griffin** » Wed May 16, 2007 4:25 am

Bamaga man wrote:
Could you develop your point about not being compatible Xabi Alonso and Mascherano together a bit more? Why do you think the goal threat would be diminished or that Mascha and Alonso are not that compatible?

At first glimpse, Mascha does look as though (for me personally) he'll compliment Gerrard better than Alonso has done. I think he's quicker, and his recovery of pace is better. He also looks better on the ball in tight situations especially, he's got quicker feet. He can obviously tackle too, and has the ability to play it simple, IMO that is what a classic holdnig midfielder does. Xabi isnt classic holding midfielder, a ' deep lying playmaker'. Their is a difference, where Xabi likes to use his ability to spread and dictate the game from a withdrawn position. Which is all well and good, but like I said before Makelele, Hamman and Mascha are your typical defensive midfielders. Thats why for me Gerrard will compliment anyone of those three players better than what he has done with Xabi.

I remember when Alonso and Gerrard were paired together, and when Gerrard went wondering up field. On occasions Gerrard would get caught out of positon leaving Xabi to deal with the attack. Firstly I remember Gerrard getting the lions share of the blame for this on these boards, I also think Rafa thought that, thats one of the reasons I think he shifted Gerrard out wide the season before. Their partnership wasnt working, so Momo got to go middle and Gerrard shifted, I'm not saying that was the main reason, but I reckon thats one of the reasons apart from the obvious too, Gerrard was moved. I remember Lando, saying something like Xabi has to try and wipe Gerrards @rse. Fingers were pointed because we were vulnrable and exposed IMO with Xabi. That didnt happen when Gerrard partnered Hamman, Hamman was better at dealing with these types of defensive situations than Alonso is IMO. Thats why there ' holding mids'. Like I said Xabi isnt, to operate a midfield effectively with Xabi in it, you'll need both Mascha and Gerrard alongside him through the middle. But if you played a flat four midfield I think Masha and Gerrard could possibly be the better pairing.

Back to you quote, its not that Xabi and Mascha are compatible, but its the fact their both deeper players in midfield. Almost doing identically the same job, IMO only one central midfielder needs to be in the " hole " not two. The other mid needs to be a player like Gerrard to push up and support the strikers.
With Mascha and Alonso deep, where are the creativity and goals going to come from in midfield. Sure we can ask the wide men to chip over the course of a season. But the two in the middle need to add their fair share, and I dont think they would.

I don't think you can possibly compare Gerrard playing with Hamann to Gerrard and Alonso, as they were under different regimes, where the whole team was set up completely differently.

Under Houllier, we were a defensive team, with Gerrard sitting deep much more.
Under Rafa, Gerrard has been given a much bigger license to roam and attack.

AFWIW, whenever a winger drifts from his position, leaving the fullback exposed - who do you blame? That's right - the winger.

Alonso is a better player than Hamann could ever have wished to be, and to suggest that his facing 2-on-1's were his own fault, when it was patently obvious his midfield partner was selling him up the river, is daft, IMHO.

Mascherano is a brilliant player, but he just isn't good enough to dislodge Xabi for an extended period IMHO. He doesn't have the tools his Hispanic cousin possesses.
It's all well and good saying "Mascherano and Gerrard are a better pair", but what you seem to forget is - who's going to find Stevie's runs without Xabi in the team? That's right - no one. No one in the side that faced Sh*tski has any vision whatsoever, aside from Gerrard and Alonso.

That's a pretty damning reason why Alonso stays. By all means, play a 5 man midfield, or a 4-4-1-1 formation and incorporate all 3. But to suggest that Xabi is the weak link is ludicrous. The guy is a magician.

The fact is you don't sell your best players, and from what I can see our best players are:

Alonso, Gerrard, Carragher, Kewell and Reina.

These are the ones we cannot do without long-term.

Kewell's only problem has been injuries. Make no mistake - he's our best attacker, and I include Gerrard in that. He's not as good a player as Stevie, but he's a better attacker.

Anyhoo - the best thing for me to do here is simply say this:

If anyone thinks we won't miss Alonso if he leaves, you're wrong.

by **Lando_Griffin** » Wed May 16, 2007 4:37 am

Bamaga man wrote:I think Alonso after coming back from the WC last year and after this gruelling season needs a well earned break

THIS is the critical factor often overlooked.

The lad is f*cked, and there's no escaping it. Have a look at my first post in this thread.

As Bob mentioned - form is temporary, class is permanent.

Fact.

by **account deleted by request** » Wed May 16, 2007 4:37 am

I wouldn't sell Momo because I still think Momo is going to be a great player for us. Maybe as Stu says his passing is not going to get any better (I'm not sure about that) but people seem to forget how well he has done for us. FA cup final last year, Barca away, Chelsea in the Charity Shield etc etc big big games and huge performances from Sissoko.

He has had 2 bad injuries and has lost form at the moment, but I think he can still play a big part next season. I would keep all five midfielders for next season, after all what if our young Brazilian friend struggles like Gonzo has? At worst Lucas is just a replacement for Bolo(definitely gone now in my view), at best he's another string to our bow.

Once Lucas has proven himself, maybe then we can reassess the midfield, but if we want to go into next season with confidence I would be looking to keep Xabi AND Sissoko.

I do think signing Mascherano has show us(or me at least) one thing, he is a better defensive midfield player than Alonso. Thats not to say he's a better player than Alonso, but I have always thought of Alonso has a deep lying playmaker who was asked to take on some of a role that he has done admirably but wasn't particularly suited to. This I think was why Rafa was reluctant to pair him with Gerrard, and felt more comfortable pairing him with Sissoko. Similar to Pirlo of Milan who needs Gattuso alongside him, Alonso needs added protection. As I said in an earlier post I don't think Mascherano and Xabi would work together as a pair either.

This leaves either a 3 man central midfield(my choice) or Gerrard paired with Mascherano, and Xabi paired with Sissoko, with Lucas as the unknown quantity.

If we decide to go with the central 3 we need much better quality from the wings than we have seen this year, so I suppose much depends on who Rafa manages to bring in and maybe Kewell's fitness next season.

In short I agree Bob keep them all

by **112-1077774096** » Wed May 16, 2007 4:44 am

Lando_Griffin wrote:
peewee wrote:listen guys, there really is no point discussing alonso, sabre will never admit to alonsos faults (and he does have them), i think alonso wont be here next season, but hey thats my opinion and i hope i am wrong, he is a decent player.

can we afford to do without him? well my answer to that is 'have we won the leauge with him?' so yes we can afford to do without him, i prefer to see mash in the starting line up with gerrard central, gerrard is not wide player, he isnt a winger so what the point in him being there just so we can shoe horn alonso or sissoko into the team.

i think the loss of alonso wont be a bad thing for the club, i think it would be a blessing in disguise

So what you're saying is we can do without our entire squad, then, seeing as none of them have won the league?

Let's sell Gerrard and Carragher, too, then. Make it worth while.

Odd point, to be honest Peewee...

I have to say that something tells me if Alonso were a scouser, you'd see it differently.

not at all lando, the simple fact is that none of our squad have won the league for us, the point i am making is it will not be any hardship if we were to lose any player as they are ALL dispensible, the reason i name alonso is because this thread is about alonso or did you miss that point?

if the thread was about carragher, at this moment in time i would say the same things.

the important thing here is that we can replace alonso with the same quality, we will not be weakening the team if he goes (although i must point out that i dont want him to be sold, just it wont be the biggest loss in the world if he is sold). if we have a player of gerrards standard or better to replace gerrard then as far as i am concerned he can go as well.

like i say, the players we have have not won us the league, if they can be replaced with better players then lets do it, if we can get money and strengthen the team to a league winning team then lets do it.

no sentiments anymore guys, if its not working lets stop beating round the bush and making excuses, lets just say its not good enough, yes alonso is quality, so is mascherano, so where is the loss to us if he goes, all i can se is benefits of mab etoo coming and filling a gap that we need to fill, or the money to strenghn the team where we need to strengthen (we dont need to strenthen the center of midfield any further)

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