Liverpool FC Forum

by **112-1077774096** » Tue May 15, 2007 8:43 am

well it seems rafa prefers mash at the moment and he knows the players better than any of us.

like i have said before alonso is a good player but his mind has been elsewhere these last few months and he has not been performing to the best of is abilities.

is he sh!t? of course he isnt and i havent seen anyone say he is.

is he having a poor season based on pervious standards? well yes he is

will he be here next season? I dont think so

by **Redstavro** » Tue May 15, 2007 11:23 am

mascharano is a cert to start in the cl final wether we have him with gerrard in a 4 man midfield or gerrard and alonso in 5 man midfield.
which ever way you look at it at the moment mascharano has been having more of an effect than alonso. but still 2 great players to have in your team cant go much wrong with either of them really

by **account deleted by request** » Tue May 15, 2007 1:04 pm

"We had bigger ambitions for this season than the Champions League. We always had one eye on Europe because it is so prestigious and a tournament that has always served us well, but we also wanted the league flag flying back at Anfield and felt we were in a good position to have a real go".

Steven Gerrard

by **ivor_the_injun** » Tue May 15, 2007 2:02 pm

Turning into a cracking thread, this.

For all the good work Rafa's done, I do get a bit concerned that maybe there's too much work done in the transfer market every summer. The point was made about Man U and Carrick and it's a good one - they had a gaping hole, and the guy filled it. With us, we always seem to get a few months into a season and find we've still got two or three gaping holes.

Looking at who was brought in last year, Fowler's already going, Bellamy is almost certainly on his way out, Gonzalez will probably either leave or be loaned out, and Aurelio's going to do well to make the start of next season.

That leaves only Kuyt and Pennant that look vaguely settled at the club, Arbeloa - who is starting to remind me of Traore such is his changeable form - and Mascherano, who we haven't yet tied down to a permanent deal.

Last year we signed three strikers (Fowler, Bellamy, Kuyt) - this year we've already signed one, and probably need to sign at least two more.
Last year we signed two wingers (Pennant and Gonzalez) - this year we'll probably sign one or two more.
Last year we signed two centre backs (Agger and Palletta) - this year we'll probably need two more (if Hyypia leaves).
Last year we signed a goalkeeper (Padelli) - this year we'll probably sign another one (as Dudek's leaving).

The Mancs have been there or thereabouts for 15 years now, and some players (Giggs, Scholes, Neville) have been there through the majority of it. Then there's Brown, Fletcher, O'Shea, Richardson and Ferdinand that have been around for 5-8 years now. Some are just squad players, but they're proven in the first team and that's the real difference right now - they're a settled squad. Every season it's just square pegs into square holes, and that's testament to the set up they've had for some time now.

I just hope that this summer Rafa gets every position absolutely locked down, but when 17-year-old Brazilians come up, I just think of all the players that came with hype during Houllier's reign, and subsequently left on the cheap. Then there are names like Voronin, and I just think it's Karlheinz Riedle all over again.

I just know that some of these guys will come to the club and leave 12 months later, and when you see some of the quality young lads coming through elsewhere in the Premiership at clubs like Reading that have been plucked from obscurity in the lower leagues for pretty much nothing, I can't help but wonder if Rafa having more money will actually make the problem worse rather than better. Too many players come to this club that just can't play the English game.

by **stmichael** » Tue May 15, 2007 2:13 pm

I'll hold my hand up here. At the start of this season I thought we'd have a decent challenge for the title this season. Not necessarily win it, but I certainly thought we'd perform better than we have in the League, especially after last season when we only lost six League games all season.

Yet again I have been left feeling a little disappointed with our league form this year, not to mention crashing out of both domestic cups at home in the space of four days.

Our European Cup run has once again been superb and we deserve to be in the final. Not even Mourinho deep down can argue.

Back to the league though, we were never in it. Not after day one. We play like a team who is going to finish in third or fourth, not a team with title aspirations. We have lost far too many for a start. Ten in total, thus dropping thirty points. We have also racked up eight draws. That means that in the league win only win just over half our games. At home we are fine, we have the second best home record in the league. However away from home we are pretty poor. We won just six away games in the league, compared to Uniteds 13 and Chelsea's 12. Since Rafa came we have had the same problem and as of yet nothing has changed.

At home we are a completley different team. We would expect to beat every team in the league at Anfiled and rightly so. But away from home, we can look very flat, uninventive. We dont have a single player (other than maybe Garcia) who can unlock a defence in the way that Joe Cole, Ronaldo, Rooney, Drogba can. No one with that one little but of skill in there locker. Maybe Gerrard, but its been very rare this season. We also lack quality up front. How many missed chance have we had this season? Especially against the big teams. Over the last couple of seasons we have outplayed Chelsea and United both home and away and come away with nothing because we couldnt find the net. Infact out of the top 8 teams this season we have scored least away goals. Teams like Bolton, Everton and Reading are going away from home and scoring more than us. There is also no other team in the top 10 who have lost more than us away from home.

Stats like this show the gulf between us and the top two and how heavily we rely on our home form.

by **Bad Bob** » Tue May 15, 2007 2:23 pm

stmichael wrote:We dont have a single player (other than maybe Garcia) who can unlock a defence in the way that Joe Cole, Ronaldo, Rooney, Drogba can. No one with that one little but of skill in there locker. Maybe Gerrard, but its been very rare this season. We also lack quality up front.

A minor tangent this, but Gerrard usually relies on a 1-2 with another player--often a striker--to unlock a defence. He'll surge from deep with the ball, lay it off to a teammate on the edge of the area and then burst through looking for the return ball in the box. Fowler's the master at the deft return ball, Crouch supplies decent service but more intermittently, and both Kewell and, surprisingly, Zenden (when he's in that area of the pitch) can touch it on to him as well. Kuyt, on the other hand, tends not to and I think it has a lot to with his first touch. Gerrard tends to really ping the ball in and I don't think Kuyt controls those kinds of balls well. As for Pennant, he rarely gets infield far enough to be a target for Gerrard running through the middle.

I guess what I'm saying is "that little bit of skill" you're suggesting we need--and I certainly agree--includes laying off deft balls for Gerrard. We need players like Kewell and Garcia--lads who can beat a man with a dribble or a quick turn, can snap off a great shot from distance or sharp angles and can play clever little passes in tight space in and around the area, opening up chances for teammates.

by **ivor_the_injun** » Tue May 15, 2007 2:28 pm

The point about our away form I think is linked to the problem we have with tending to recruit players from overseas. We almost certainly sell the club to these Spanish and Brazilian kids by telling them about these famous European nights and how marvellous the atmosphere is at Anfield, and then they arrive and suddenly first game of the season is a freezing afternoon at Bramhall Lane.

At lower league Brazilian clubs, I'd imagine the atmosphere is the same pretty every week. But English football has these anomalies where a player in the Championship can play in front of 400 one week in a relegation dogfight, and suddenly next weekend they're in front of 40,000 at the Stadium Of Light. Guys in the lower divisions that have come from an English footballing background get this, and are able to put the same level of commitment into their performances even if it's a reserve game in front of 3 men and a greyhound. I just don't think Rafa gets that some of the players he's bringing in can't raise their game in the mud like that.

This isn't a "buy English" drum-banging, but maybe Rafa needs to fine-tune his eye for a player to recognise that some games his players won't necessarily be on pitches that can accommodate silky pass-and-move football. Alonso has got that adaptability, but players like Mascherano haven't, for example.

by **account deleted by request** » Tue May 15, 2007 2:33 pm

Can Garcia do it over a long hard premiership season though Bob? I have no doubts about his ability and value in tight games against top sides, but over the course of season how many games will we see the "little ball waster"? I think if we are to make an effective challenge we need a more consistant performer. Thats not to say, sell Garcia but bring in someone else who can share the creative duties but perhaps more consistantly.

by **kunilson** » Tue May 15, 2007 2:39 pm

Good thread, similar to one before where i posted what i thought about this season.

But in short, it has been slightly disappointing...and there definately needs to be some improvement. Rafa is the right man, he has got his eye in on English football and has shown what he is capable of mainly from the previous season and how well we played from October through to the end.
There are times we show form that is hard to criticise, then we dont turn up and ruin good work done.
The slopppy start of recent seasons has to end now...we can't afford to be out of the title race so early again, then having to lift our spirits with a good cup run(enjoyable, but distraction from main goal).
I admit being so good in Europe and enjoying how our team stands up to every challenge makes me forget we have any problems, then a couple of days later we play in the premiership and i look at the table and it just ain't right.

Injuries to new signings, unnecessary rotation are indeed factors.....but id like to see some of the players take blame for their sloppy start to the season. Sometimes we did have teams capable of winning, albeit weaker, but some players weren't switched on and the confidence of the team went downhill at times especially when the senior squad members were showing no fight...sure the manager could have helped by rewarding good performances with time on the pitch (Crouch) but some of them didn't deserve a run in the team the way they were performing..

1 world class striker, 1 world class winger....and a couple of creative players and maybe some defensive options...that should be it. Someone said in this thread he'd be surprised to see more than 5 or 6 players in, i think thats about right..

Rafa knows what the fans want....anything short of being close to the top/being top near the end of the season(March/April/May), and not just mathematically i mean REALISTICALLY is what i would like for next season. There's no reason why we cannot do that.

It was another re-building season this time around, in hindsight i can see that, what with the amount of players we brought in...i guess the main disappointment comes from having the hope i had at the beginning of the season of winning the title.

i guess it weren't so short

by **account deleted by request** » Tue May 15, 2007 4:40 pm

Liverpool boss Rafa Benitez has admitted his major target next season is the Premiership title.

The Reds have failed to mount a serious title challenge during Benitez's three years in charge at Anfield.

Liverpool finished 21 points behind champions United this season, but Benitez feels his side are progressing after reaching the UEFA Champions League final against Milan later this month

Benitez has guided Liverpool to Champions League and FA Cup success and the Spaniard is keen to make a concerted challenge for the championship.

"Whether we are a great team depends on what happens next season and in a few years' time," said Benitez.

"Now we are in our second Champions League final in three seasons. But when you talk about being compared with the big teams, we have to keep winning a lot.

"We are sending a message to the world that we are progressing.

"We want to be a strong team and if we can win more trophies in the future, all well and good. But for us, the target next season is the Premier League."

Benitez believes Milan will pose a bigger threat to his side in the final in Athens as they have improved from the 2005 final.

""We have more experience than we did two years ago, but Milan also have players who have won the World Cup," added Benitez.

"They have greater qualities than last time. They are stronger in the middle and in defence.

"We experienced how good Milan are during the first half in Istanbul. The second half was better, so hopefully our performance will be more like that."

Sky sports

by **Lando_Griffin** » Tue May 15, 2007 6:12 pm

Bamaga man wrote:Claude Makelelee IMO.

Pirlo isnt bad neither, I think Hamman was a better holding mid the Xabi personally, not now of course.

But for starters you're looking at the fúcking right place when it comes to assess the game of Alonso, the games WITHOUT the ball, which many fans, including those who delude themselves thinking they know their football, simply overlook.

Who might they be Sabre ?

I think most Liverpool fans acknowledge and appreciate the work on and off the ball that Xabi does.

But apparently its only "seen" by the people who fully understand the game.

Makelele is a very limited player, and while I agree that he is a fantastic defensive Midfielder, he just does not have the ability to start an attack/control the tempo like Alonso can, nor can he finish that attack off. He is also used a lot more sparingly.

Hamann was basically the same as Makelele, yet even he could begin an attack and also finish one off.

by **red37** » Tue May 15, 2007 6:30 pm

Horses for courses. Makelele is in their side to do a specific job. A bloody good he does one too. The difference with us is, Xabi and Mascherano (the aforementioned Hamann) all are/have/to some extent still will, be required to cover the work of more than one player, whilst trying to influence their own area of the park. Down to the lack of quality in key areas, they are having to do more than might reasonably be asked of them in another - preferable situation. Thus spreading the cloth a bit thin. Lets hope that changes over the Summer.

by **yckatbjywtbiastkamb** » Tue May 15, 2007 7:29 pm

i honestly think rafa has performed miracles, dont forget when the americans bought us out in the smallprint of the deal it also said they bought out our debts, i forget the exact figure but it was somewhere between 20 to 40 miliion quid.
the club has backed rafa with money but nowhere near what ferguson or mourinho have at their disposal.
rafa had to cut his cloth to suit, infact staying with the fashion analogy, rafa is trying to win a best dressed man fashion contest buying stuff from next and top shop when the other two are buying suits from saville row.
united spent DOUBLE our club record fee plus another 2 million on top of that on one defender.
rumour has it they spent the same on rooney.
and i think the spending levels at chelsea the past few seasons will never be repeated again in football.
i just cant see another chairman in the future no matter how rich spending something like 600 million over 3 or 4 seasons.
like everyone here i would like to see us do better in the league but when we are beaten into 3rd by the 2 sides with vastly more spending power than anyone else i find it hard to critisize.
when ferguson took over united in 85 or 86 united were probably the richest club in britain, even though they hadnt won the title for nearly 20 years they have always had the big gates.
ferguson bought the likes of neil webb, terry phelan, danny wallace, gordon strachan, jim leighton, brian mcclair and dozens more players before he came across a good side,
rafa has got to have time to build his own side.
if we give him time i`m convinced he`ll get us back to the very top once again.

by **LFC2007** » Tue May 15, 2007 7:56 pm

Lando_Griffin wrote:Makelele is a very limited player, and while I agree that he is a fantastic defensive Midfielder, he just does not have the ability to start an attack/control the tempo like Alonso can, nor can he finish that attack off. He is also used a lot more sparingly.

Hamann was basically the same as Makelele, yet even he could begin an attack and also finish one off.

While I agree with you that Makelele could not finish off an attack, he certainly initiated many attacks with his distribution. Any attacking move usually begins with Makelele at the base of the diamond, or should I say used to begin with Makelele - he's getting on a bit now and doesn't play as much. He doesn't have the same range of passing as Alonso but he used to dictate the tempo of the game for Chelsea.

As for Hamaan, he wasn't as skilled as Makelele but as he matured, his defensive nouse improved.

by **Alonso 2007** » Tue May 15, 2007 8:15 pm

21 points behind Man Utd at the end, is awful for a club like lfc.

we are no nearer to winning the league, than at any time under Gerard Houllier, after 3 seasons of Benitez Reign.

Liverpool 18 league titles, Man Utd 16. Too close for comfort.

One thing Benitez has not achieved in any of his three seasons/ teams, is consistency.

2 reasons:

1. He changes it around too much.
2. He has a distinct lack of top drawer quality in the side, apart from a few core players, Carra, Gerrard, Alonso, Reina.

Man Utd, Chelsea, and Arsenal will go out any strengthen further this summer, so its not as if we will have any advantage next year.

Who we gonna buy?

Hows about, Kaka 30m, Owen 13m, Villa 10m, or Ronaldhinio maybe? Players who can open teams up!

It's snow joke this you know.!

If we don't happen to win the Champins league final, in my book, its been disapointing this season.

You guys can analyze players/ tactics/ rafa, all you like, but there is a definate lack of quality there.

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A hugely disappointing season....on many fronts - Let not athens distract you....

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