Liverpool FC Forum

by **flombs** » Tue May 15, 2007 4:17 am

Benitez is the man for the job no doubt. He has also made some questionable decisions including tacticle and choosing the right squad for particular games. These are the things i would like to see
him get right next season. We need to find consistency in the league.

In the end i would pick no other manager to manage LFC.

by **112-1077774096** » Tue May 15, 2007 4:23 am

lando, a gimp would have made an impression after our last boss.

but yes rafa is a million times better than houllier, i agree 100% there, but sadly that isnt good enough, and yes we had some long term injuries, but none of that disguises the fact that we played a weakened team too many times this season, a team weakened by selection rather than by injury.

if he wants to rest players then ok, but select his strongest team and then when we are ahead in the game bring players off, rather than go into games giving the oppo a massive lift when they get our team sheet.

can you imagine playing against our full strengh team, it would be frightening, but then when you see a team full of changes and indecision it must give you a lift.

i know rafa ha limited resources etc and he has to make do with what he has, so why weaken that even further with crazy team selections and defensive football.

man utd have proven again this season that the league can be won with attractive attacking football. are they better than us? is their full strengh team better than ours? in some positions yes they are, i think collectivley we are better, but we never get the chance to show that on a regular basis.

next season we need to go out there and make a statement of intent, the league is our priority next season and we need to show that from day one, it doesnt matter who we are playing, we go full strengh and punish them and then we continue with that vein (then there can be no more excuses about us already being out the title, saving players for europe etc).

the champions league has saved rafa this year, can you imagine if we went out to barcelona, we would have nothing from this season except a massive step backwards.

kewell is a gem, i hope next season he is firing on all cylinders, he will be like a new signing and is what we have missed this season, quality on the left, zenden, gonzalez, aurellio, not good enough, get rid of them.

i remember speaking to my uncle many years ago, a season ticket holder from since the late 50s early 60s and the man who took me to my first game, i think it was about 3 or 4 years after out last title win and we were selling a player, i said we shouldnt sell him, my uncle said he just isnt good enough and why keep players that do not do the business, there should be no sentiment, if someone isnt good enough to win the league they we shouldnt have them no matter how much you like them.

what he was saying is its trophies that show how good you are, and most importantly the league, that is the true measure of a team, consistent performances sweeping all before you, not embarrassing losses and performances, and if the players you have are not good enough to get you the league then there is no need to keep them, get players who can win you the league. that is when i got rid of my rose coloured specs mate and aw things for what they were, i stopped defending the indefensible.

i think now we have the players to deliver the title, but what we dont have is the manager. i know this will shock some people but let me explain, i think rafa is good enough to win the league, but not while he messes around so much with selection and formation, when he sorts that out we will become conistent in the league, the first 4 weeks of next season will tell us everything we need to know, he has made the same mistake the last 3 seasons, lets hope he has now learnt from it and are at least still challenging by christmas.

(this is not a rafa out pot by the way before i get slated)

by **flombs** » Tue May 15, 2007 4:27 am

peewee wrote:lando, a gimp would have made an impression after our last boss.

but yes rafa is a million times better than houllier, i agree 100% there, but sadly that isnt good enough, and yes we had some long term injuries, but none of that disguises the fact that we played a weakened team too many times this season, a team weakened by selection rather than by injury.

if he wants to rest players then ok, but select his strongest team and then when we are ahead in the game bring players off, rather than go into games giving the oppo a massive lift when they get our team sheet.

can you imagine playing against our full strengh team, it would be frightening, but then when you see a team full of changes and indecision it must give you a lift.

i know rafa ha limited resources etc and he has to make do with what he has, so why weaken that even further with crazy team selections and defensive football.

man utd have proven again this season that the league can be won with attractive attacking football. are they better than us? is their full strengh team better than ours? in some positions yes they are, i think collectivley we are better, but we never get the chance to show that on a regular basis.

next season we need to go out there and make a statement of intent, the league is our priority next season and we need to show that from day one, it doesnt matter who we are playing, we go full strengh and punish them and then we continue with that vein (then there can be no more excuses about us already being out the title, saving players for europe etc).

the champions league has saved rafa this year, can you imagine if we went out to barcelona, we would have nothing from this season except a massive step backwards.

kewell is a gem, i hope next season he is firing on all cylinders, he will be like a new signing and is what we have missed this season, quality on the left, zenden, gonzalez, aurellio, not good enough, get rid of them.

i remember speaking to my uncle many years ago, a season ticket holder from since the late 50s early 60s and the man who took me to my first game, i think it was about 3 or 4 years after out last title win and we were selling a player, i said we shouldnt sell him, my uncle said he just isnt good enough and why keep players that do not do the business, there should be no sentiment, if someone isnt good enough to win the league they we shouldnt have them no matter how much you like them.

what he was saying is its trophies that show how good you are, and most importantly the league, that is the true measure of a team, consistent performances sweeping all before you, not embarrassing losses and performances, and if the players you have are not good enough to get you the league then there is no need to keep them, get players who can win you the league. that is when i got rid of my rose coloured specs mate and aw things for what they were, i stopped defending the indefensible.

i think now we have the players to deliver the title, but what we dont have is the manager. i know this will shock some people but let me explain, i think rafa is good enough to win the league, but not while he messes around so much with selection and formation, when he sorts that out we will become conistent in the league, the first 4 weeks of next season will tell us everything we need to know, he has made the same mistake the last 3 seasons, lets hope he has now learnt from it and are at least still challenging by christmas.

(this is not a rafa out pot by the way before i get slated)

Great post Peewee. Everything i would like to say if my brain would let me. :suspect:

by **Lando_Griffin** » Tue May 15, 2007 5:01 am

peewee wrote:lando, a gimp would have made an impression after our last boss.

but yes rafa is a million times better than houllier, i agree 100% there, but sadly that isnt good enough, and yes we had some long term injuries, but none of that disguises the fact that we played a weakened team too many times this season, a team weakened by selection rather than by injury.

if he wants to rest players then ok, but select his strongest team and then when we are ahead in the game bring players off, rather than go into games giving the oppo a massive lift when they get our team sheet.

can you imagine playing against our full strengh team, it would be frightening, but then when you see a team full of changes and indecision it must give you a lift.

i know rafa ha limited resources etc and he has to make do with what he has, so why weaken that even further with crazy team selections and defensive football.

man utd have proven again this season that the league can be won with attractive attacking football. are they better than us? is their full strengh team better than ours? in some positions yes they are, i think collectivley we are better, but we never get the chance to show that on a regular basis.

next season we need to go out there and make a statement of intent, the league is our priority next season and we need to show that from day one, it doesnt matter who we are playing, we go full strengh and punish them and then we continue with that vein (then there can be no more excuses about us already being out the title, saving players for europe etc).

the champions league has saved rafa this year, can you imagine if we went out to barcelona, we would have nothing from this season except a massive step backwards.

kewell is a gem, i hope next season he is firing on all cylinders, he will be like a new signing and is what we have missed this season, quality on the left, zenden, gonzalez, aurellio, not good enough, get rid of them.

i remember speaking to my uncle many years ago, a season ticket holder from since the late 50s early 60s and the man who took me to my first game, i think it was about 3 or 4 years after out last title win and we were selling a player, i said we shouldnt sell him, my uncle said he just isnt good enough and why keep players that do not do the business, there should be no sentiment, if someone isnt good enough to win the league they we shouldnt have them no matter how much you like them.

what he was saying is its trophies that show how good you are, and most importantly the league, that is the true measure of a team, consistent performances sweeping all before you, not embarrassing losses and performances, and if the players you have are not good enough to get you the league then there is no need to keep them, get players who can win you the league. that is when i got rid of my rose coloured specs mate and aw things for what they were, i stopped defending the indefensible.

i think now we have the players to deliver the title, but what we dont have is the manager. i know this will shock some people but let me explain, i think rafa is good enough to win the league, but not while he messes around so much with selection and formation, when he sorts that out we will become conistent in the league, the first 4 weeks of next season will tell us everything we need to know, he has made the same mistake the last 3 seasons, lets hope he has now learnt from it and are at least still challenging by christmas.

(this is not a rafa out pot by the way before i get slated)

I agree in the main, mate, I really do, but:

I do actually think that Aurelio is a top-drawer leftback, having seen him live and watched him intently on numerous occasions this season. He just needs time to settle into a rhythm now he has seemingly settled into the club. (Obviously hampered by his injuries.)

The other point I wish to raise is although I agree with you that we should boot the sh*t out and replace it with top-drawer alternatives, it has not been financially viable to do so up until now, and we shouldn't lose sight of that fact.

I am sure that, had Rafa been given a blank cheque from day one, the only current players we'd have in the money squad would be:

Gerrard,
Carragher,
Alonso,
Kewell,
Reina,
Owen, (as if we'd got loads of pennies, he'd never have left for Real)
with Aurelio, Mascherano, Finnan and Crouch as possibles.

I truly believe Rafa would have bought at least the following by now had the funds been available:

Torres (would have been snapped up in his first season),
Villa (Once again - first season),
Simao,
Alves,
Aimar (as opposed to Garcia),
Milito,
Eto'o.

I just think miracles are expected of someone who is, remember, only human.

by **66-1112520797** » Tue May 15, 2007 5:06 am

"Oh, that Mascherano was brilliant last night, he's the best player in the World, dontcha know? Much better than so-and-so."

"Oh, Sissoko is brilliant - much better than Alonso and he should play every game beside Gerrard int he centre."

"Pennant is sh*t and his performances will never improve."

"Kuyt is the next Fowler."

"Arbeloa is better than Finnan."

It's b*llocks. All of these statements are genuine accounts of some of the sh*t I have heard over the last year or so. Most on here, some in person. I said the Pennant one, along with numerous others, but the difference is - I have learnt my lesson, and I know now that you just cannot judge a player on a handful of games.

Add to that list Lando

"Alonso is the Best holding mid in the world"

I think we're all guilty for critising our players too much and looking for a scapegoat at times, and I think a lot of us Overate certain players to extremes where its just sheer Red glasses their looking through.

I just thought on current form towards the end of season Mascha looked sharper than Xabi, and deserved his place ahead of Xabi in a couple of games.

But thats enough about the "who's better than who debate" I couldnt give a to$$ as long as their performing for us in a red shirt.

by **112-1077774096** » Tue May 15, 2007 5:18 am

i do take the points you raise lando, but to be fair i am not expecting miracles, i just want every game to be taken seriously to ensure that we are challenging for the title. maybe thats unfair, maybe rafa is taking it seriously and genuinley believes that fielding a weakened team is good enough to beat some clubs, but if he believes that then he cant have learnt anything from the previous three seasons where it has been shown we cant do that.

also this desire to keep gerrard on the right is mystifying, why take a world class player and play him out of position to wedge another player in to the team (i know you beleive he better on the right, but i disagree and i think performances show he is better in the centre). surely another player should be wedged into the right ensuring a strong center midfield.

i dont know mate, i dont get paid a few million a year to make these decisions, but i can see when something doesnt work, so rafa must also be able to see.

he did it in spain some say, so what? this isnt spain and he has to adapt to that, just because something works it spain doesnt mean it will work here and he has to be flexible enough to understand that, its ok to be stubborn when something is working, but to be stubborn when something doesnt work is just plain silly, its a waste of time and he needs to get out of that mindset.

and again mate i take your point about the money, but as i have already said it doesnt matter who we buy really if rafa is going to put them on the bench, play them out of position or does not give them any supply except a long hoof up from defence

by **Lando_Griffin** » Tue May 15, 2007 5:39 am

Fair enough.

I think there's going to be a few raised eyebrows this close-season, and I get the feeling the massive overhaul many of us expect to see won't actually happen. A few signings, yes, but I should be very suprised to see more than 5 or 6 players join.

by **Lando_Griffin** » Tue May 15, 2007 5:42 am

Bamaga man wrote:
"Oh, that Mascherano was brilliant last night, he's the best player in the World, dontcha know? Much better than so-and-so."

"Oh, Sissoko is brilliant - much better than Alonso and he should play every game beside Gerrard int he centre."

"Pennant is sh*t and his performances will never improve."

"Kuyt is the next Fowler."

"Arbeloa is better than Finnan."

It's b*llocks. All of these statements are genuine accounts of some of the sh*t I have heard over the last year or so. Most on here, some in person. I said the Pennant one, along with numerous others, but the difference is - I have learnt my lesson, and I know now that you just cannot judge a player on a handful of games.

Add to that list Lando

"Alonso is the Best holding mid in the world"

I think we're all guilty for critising our players too much and looking for a scapegoat at times, and I think a lot of us Overate certain players to extremes where its just sheer Red glasses their looking through.

I just thought on current form towards the end of season Mascha looked sharper than Xabi, and deserved his place ahead of Xabi in a couple of games.

But thats enough about the "who's better than who debate" I couldnt give a to$$ as long as their performing for us in a red shirt.

Who is a better holding mid in World football? I haven't seen one.

I agree, though, that whilst ever we have Mascherano and Alonso in the same team, only LFC can benefit.

by **Sabre** » Tue May 15, 2007 5:46 am

Some very good posts here, especially I like redtrader input, I hope he sticks to this forum because he's IMHO a very good football poster.

Some excellent points of Lando, often valued for his sense of humour, but that also makes a lot of sense football wise

More defensively aware? Are you on drugs? Alonso has the best awareness in our entire team, and it's his awareness that allows other players around him to push on and attack.

A better tackler? Why - because he slides in more often? Let me tell you something about tackling, shall I? You can go for the showbiz-style that Gerrard and Mascherano like, which is much more entertaining, but requires less skill (even I can slide in on someone and win the ball) and involves much more risk, or you can do a Xabi, stay on your feet, anticipate, intercept and then build an attack from there.
Think about what you're saying. How many fouls does Mascherano concede that Alonso wouldn't?

Mascherano has better positioning? You serious? I think someone needs to visit the docs and asked to be admitted to an asylum. Alonso's positional sense is second to none. When do you EVER see him caught out of position, unless it was to actually cover someone else? Never - the lad is nearly robotic in this.

More aggressive. This is the only quoted point I agree with you on, and even then I fail to see why this is a good point. You don't want an aggressive player leaping into challenges all the time - it results in red cards and free kicks/penalties. If you want aggression - let's bring Dennis Wise and Chopper Harris out of retirement...

I actually think Mascherano is a cracking player, with a bright future ahead of him. I am glad he's at Liverpool, and I hope we tie him down to a permanent deal asap. But that doesn't make him what he's not.
That's a problem I am noticing more and more with LFC fans, many of them longer in the tooth than their incredulous opinions would imply - haste.

You may be right or wrong Lando, when you talk about Alonso. But for starters you're looking at the fúcking right place when it comes to assess the game of Alonso, the games WITHOUT the ball, which many fans, including those who delude themselves thinking they know their football, simply overlook.

It has happened to me to join the discussion in this forum after a game in which I was angry with Alonso because some decissions without the ball, and actually the people was praising him for what he did with the ball, I commented the mistakes, I *shrug* and I moved on, but now it's happening the opposite, Alonso doesn't make some fashionable stuff he knows, and people simply overlook his defensive game.

Great points about quality in tackling and positioning. People also seem to overlook that there are many situations in football like the goal kicks that are repeated a lot of times, and to have good players to receive those balls in the middle also wins matches. People seem to overlook aswell how important is the decission of when to tackle and when to wait when you haven't the ball. A bad decission, and in a decent skilled league, you can be dribbled and have a defensive problem.

I disagree in the other league stuff though, mate. Mascherano is a great player too, If Alonso left to one of the clubs that want him (not Bolton, or Tottenham precisely but Barcelona) Mascha would be one of the players in which I rely to replace Alonso without being too desperate.

Good thread.

by **66-1112520797** » Tue May 15, 2007 5:49 am

Claude Makelelee IMO.

Pirlo isnt bad neither, I think Hamman was a better holding mid the Xabi personally, not now of course.

But for starters you're looking at the fúcking right place when it comes to assess the game of Alonso, the games WITHOUT the ball, which many fans, including those who delude themselves thinking they know their football, simply overlook.

Who might they be Sabre ?

I think most Liverpool fans acknowledge and appreciate the work on and off the ball that Xabi does.

But apparently its only "seen" by the people who fully understand the game.

by **Sabre** » Tue May 15, 2007 5:57 am

Claude Makelelee IMO.

Pirlo isnt bad neither, I think Hamman was a better holding mid the Xabi personally, not now of course.

But for starters you're looking at the fúcking right place when it comes to assess the game of Alonso, the games WITHOUT the ball, which many fans, including those who delude themselves thinking they know their football, simply overlook.

Who might they be Sabre ?

I think most Liverpool fans acknowledge and appreciate the work on and off the ball that Xabi does.

But apparently its only "seen" by the people who fully understand the game.

Good you bring Makelele on this, Bamaga man.

A player completely misunderstood in Spain, and I saw him quite much in Celta and Real Madrid. He does indeed an excellent work without the ball, but he was sold by Madrid because there they demand beautiful things with the ball.

He has shown in England he's a great player, unfortunately he's playing for a team I dislike.

Who might they be? Everyone of us we know what we do before we post and what we look at. I meant, whoever does not focus aswell on what Alonso does without the ball. Everyone will know that, no need to tell who.

P.S. And good you mention Hamman too, excellent stuff defending, plus a very tough player, can anyone confirm me whether it's true that he shot a penalty with a broken toe? anyway in his case WITH the ball he lacks many things Alonso has.

Gatusso is another player that without the ball he's excellent.

by **66-1112520797** » Tue May 15, 2007 6:04 am

Sabre wrote:Good you bring Makelele on this, Bamaga man.

A player completely misunderstood in Spain, and I saw him quite much in Celta and Real Madrid. He does indeed an excellent work without the ball, but he was sold by Madrid because there they demand beautiful things with the ball.

He has shown in England he's a great player, unfortunately he's playing for a team I dislike.

He is quality

Underated at Real, to their down fall.

He is a world class holding midfielder, which give the likes of Zidane and Figo license to roam with no worries.

He is another reason why we (Liverpool) often find it very hard to break Chelsea down and infact thats also testiment to their defensive record.

by **Sabre** » Tue May 15, 2007 6:10 am

I have to agree that. Every bit of it, including he's the reason of Chelsea's solidness.

But do you think he's better than Alonso as a whole? we can discuss that if you want in the thread that S@int opened recently about Alonso and his defining moment.

by **LFC #1** » Tue May 15, 2007 8:13 am

Bamaga man wrote:
Sabre wrote:Good you bring Makelele on this, Bamaga man.

A player completely misunderstood in Spain, and I saw him quite much in Celta and Real Madrid. He does indeed an excellent work without the ball, but he was sold by Madrid because there they demand beautiful things with the ball.

He has shown in England he's a great player, unfortunately he's playing for a team I dislike.

He is quality

Underated at Real, to their down fall.

He is a world class holding midfielder, which give the likes of Zidane and Figo license to roam with no worries.

He is another reason why we (Liverpool) often find it very hard to break Chelsea down and infact thats also testiment to their defensive record.

I still maintain that it's the worst bit of business done this decade! Clueless, absolutely clueless bit of business.

by **Penguins** » Tue May 15, 2007 8:38 am

Lando_Griffin wrote:
Penguins wrote:
aCe' wrote:
Redstavro wrote:in a perfect world you wouldnt play mascherano why?

out of mascherano alonso and gerrard .. pick two..
there you go...
you cant play him based on how good you think he migt become...
im saying... to me... hes better than carrick of manutd and owen harg. of bayern... but not better than xabi and gerrard.

i think gerrard is the best central midfielder in the world... can defend ...can go forward... can hit them from far and close ...
when it comes to the right side... not even in my top10 player list...
i could have understood rafa playing him there last season when we had no other options but this season with pennant here it was uncalled for...
next season i can see rafa throwing him in the right side again and it bothers me quite abit...

an ideal midfield 4 would look something like this in my books...

Pennant Gerrard Alonso NEWLEFTMID

with 1 or 2 new quality strikers and the defenders we got now and maybe one more CB.... we'd be ready for a title challenge imo...

I agree with everything else you said Ace but I'd have to pick Masch ahead of Alonso in a centre mid with gerrard.

I just think it brings better balance and Masch is much more defensivly aware, a better tackler, has better positioning, more agressive and a little faster. Alonso might be a great holding mid but he is suspect as a defensive mid. Gerrard like to leave his spot many times during a game leaving the other to take care of business in the centre of the park and masch do that with exellence.

That post right there undermines anything you've ever written.

Mascherano is very, very good, but is not in the same league as Alonso, and to suggest otherwise implies that you know f*ck all about the game.

"Masch is much more defensivly aware, a better tackler, has better positioning, more agressive"

More defensively aware? Are you on drugs? Alonso has the best awareness in our entire team, and it's his awareness that allows other players around him to push on and attack.

A better tackler? Why - because he slides in more often? Let me tell you something about tackling, shall I? You can go for the showbiz-style that Gerrard and Mascherano like, which is much more entertaining, but requires less skill (even I can slide in on someone and win the ball) and involves much more risk, or you can do a Xabi, stay on your feet, anticipate, intercept and then build an attack from there.
Think about what you're saying. How many fouls does Mascherano concede that Alonso wouldn't?

Mascherano has better positioning? You serious? I think someone needs to visit the docs and asked to be admitted to an asylum. Alonso's positional sense is second to none. When do you EVER see him caught out of position, unless it was to actually cover someone else? Never - the lad is nearly robotic in this.

More aggressive. This is the only quoted point I agree with you on, and even then I fail to see why this is a good point. You don't want an aggressive player leaping into challenges all the time - it results in red cards and free kicks/penalties. If you want aggression - let's bring Dennis Wise and Chopper Harris out of retirement...

I actually think Mascherano is a cracking player, with a bright future ahead of him. I am glad he's at Liverpool, and I hope we tie him down to a permanent deal asap. But that doesn't make him what he's not.
That's a problem I am noticing more and more with LFC fans, many of them longer in the tooth than their incredulous opinions would imply - haste.

"Oh, that Mascherano was brilliant last night, he's the best player in the World, dontcha know? Much better than so-and-so."

"Oh, Sissoko is brilliant - much better than Alonso and he should play every game beside Gerrard int he centre."

"Pennant is sh*t and his performances will never improve."

"Kuyt is the next Fowler."

"Arbeloa is better than Finnan."

It's b*llocks. All of these statements are genuine accounts of some of the sh*t I have heard over the last year or so. Most on here, some in person. I said the Pennant one, along with numerous others, but the difference is - I have learnt my lesson, and I know now that you just cannot judge a player on a handful of games.

Anyway, I digress:

I was one of the most passionate supporters of Rafa when he tried to sign Mascherano in January. A lot of people were sceptical due to his "failure" at West Ham, but having seen him play a few times, I knew we were getting a gem. I stand by that, and I'll go even further by saying he hasn't shown us everything he's got yet.

However: This is not open to debate, it is not "down to opinion", it is stone-cold fact:

Xabi Alonso is a better player than Javier Mascherano.

He may not be as glamourous, but glamour doesn't win you matches. Glamour doesn't win you trophies.

F*cking ability and intelligence does.

Well, that was a bit unfriendly and harsh.

Well, I stand by that I still think mascherano is better with Gerrard in a 4-4-2 right now.
Alonso has not been great this season, accept it.
Masch played vs Chelski not because of his great looks...

Alonso sometimes gets caught dwelling on the ball and often takes hold of a shirt when opponents go the other way and gets a yellow. Happens every now and then.
His passing this season has been very sloppy for his standards this season. His short passing especially where they are too short and slow and easily picked out. When he gets the ball the whole team stops and he moves around in slow motion which makes it easy for opposition players to get back.
He is also easy to take out of a game if u put pressure on him cause Xabi always needs way too much time. He also lacks pace so he has a hard time covering much space and he is not physical at all.
Sure, Masch may not have the vision, creativity and ball control but he's a real dm protecting the back 4 and keeps it simple and passes to Gerrard or the wingers not trying to much. He is much better at covering space at the back and looks like he'll be a monster in the future. He only arrived 3 months ago and he'll only get better.

Like in 05 final vs milan I don't trust a Midfield of
Kewell gerrard Alonso Pennant to take care of Seedorf and Kaka defensivly. It didn't work then and it will not work now.

When did we turn it around?
When hamman(=Masch) came on stabilising the back and letting Alonso and Gerrard do what they do best.

Saying all this doesn't mean that I think Alonso is a bad footballer and that Masch is super skilled and much better overall. I never said that. What I did say was that in a midfield 4 with gerrard I prefer Mascherano.

And sorry if our opinions happens to differ, but there is no need for name calling...

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